Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 17:18, Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2004 08.54, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote:
> > On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 01:38:26PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > My biggest itch in our free software world is drivers.
> [...]
> > > Does it make sense to set up a centralized website/ DB where
> 
> I always jump when somebody wants to centralize things...

I know how you feel, although this is more from a manufacturers point of
view:

I develop widget X.

I contact microsoft and have X incorporated into windows.

I want to get it into free software kernels ... ???

> OTOH, one place to collect the info would probably be good. Or at least 
> (to start with) one place listing the various places where such info is 
> currently collected. Perhaps this is a case for a Wiki, and then you'll 
> see in what direction this develops.

Might be a good way to start.

> > > hardware manufacturers and individuals can submid hardware info,
> > > and that is widely advertised to hardware companies around the
> > > globe?
> >
> > Yes, it does. I'm not sure if it makes sense to have it
> > distribution-independent. End-users want to see which hardware is
> > supported by their operating system (the current release, not the
> > development release)

The primary intention here is to make it easy for the manufacturers, not
the end users (however a nice searchable interface for users would
assuredly be a side effect).

If I have a device that has multiple connection types (eg. parallel,
usb, ethernet), who do I contact in the free software world? It's
currently not easy/ known.

It could/ should include information (perhaps in wiki or some "user
submissions") about which kernels/ distros currently have support too,
since that is useful information.

> I guess this depends on what this site wishes to do. Should it be a 
> repository for end-users to get information, or should it be a resource 
> for distribution developers to go looking for device identification 
> information?

Primarily for manufacturers to provide/ submit information to.
Therefore the second primary target I guess would be developers.
Thirdly is users.

Thanks
Zenaan

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Wouter Verhelst]

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Op wo 26-05-2004, om 12:07 schreef Zenaan Harkness:
> I develop widget X.
> 
> I contact microsoft and have X incorporated into windows.

Rotfl.

-- 
         EARTH
     smog  |   bricks
 AIR  --  mud  -- FIRE
soda water |   tequila
         WATER
 -- with thanks to fortune

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Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 21:35, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Op wo 26-05-2004, om 12:07 schreef Zenaan Harkness:
> > I develop widget X.
> > 
> > I contact microsoft and have X incorporated into windows.
> 
> Rotfl.

OK, bad assumption.

The only reason I say that is that so many devices work
"seamlessly" with MSW*

 - recently I read a review on the X-Arcade retro joystick
controllers (those heavy "for cabinets and MAME" things).
The reviewer just plugged it in and Windows literally popped
up with a dialog telling the "end user recognizable" name of
the device.

 - a year or so back, my brother bought a "blue eye" USB
external 2.5" HDD (really nice looking thing) and on his
XP box it auto added a new drive (E: or whatever). Seamless.

So how come devices tend to just plug and play when
used with Windows (USB HDDs, audi cards, logitec gear)?

Will a "visible"/ centralized location where manufacturers
can submit info on their devices (for free software kernels)
help to get us closer to the "front line" of device support?

thanks
zen

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Wed, 26 May 2004, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 21:35, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Op wo 26-05-2004, om 12:07 schreef Zenaan Harkness:
> > > I develop widget X.
> > >
> > > I contact microsoft and have X incorporated into windows.
> >
> > Rotfl.
>
> OK, bad assumption.
>
> The only reason I say that is that so many devices work
> "seamlessly" with MSW*
>
>  - recently I read a review on the X-Arcade retro joystick
> controllers (those heavy "for cabinets and MAME" things).
> The reviewer just plugged it in and Windows literally popped
> up with a dialog telling the "end user recognizable" name of
> the device.
>
>  - a year or so back, my brother bought a "blue eye" USB
> external 2.5" HDD (really nice looking thing) and on his
> XP box it auto added a new drive (E: or whatever). Seamless.
>
> So how come devices tend to just plug and play when
> used with Windows (USB HDDs, audi cards, logitec gear)?
>
> Will a "visible"/ centralized location where manufacturers
> can submit info on their devices (for free software kernels)
> help to get us closer to the "front line" of device support?
>
> thanks
> zen

M$ has a whole division dedicated to plug-and-pray developers.
When their USB disk, camera, or whatever gets "approved", its
name is put into W$ even without installing any "drivers".
That's why W$ is so large. It would be good if somebody
started to do something like that for Linux, perhaps a
database from which configuration stuff could be extracted.
It's not a kernel issue, so some distribution really should
take it up.

Of course, the work needs to be done correctly so you don't
get the M$ problem of; "Everything was working until I installed
my new printer...." Whereupon you install everything from a
newly-formatted hard-disk, all over again, installing the
new printer first!


Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.4.26 on an i686 machine (5570.56 BogoMips).
            Note 96.31% of all statistics are fiction.

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Randy.Dunlap]

On Wed, 26 May 2004 22:07:17 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

| On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 21:35, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
| > Op wo 26-05-2004, om 12:07 schreef Zenaan Harkness:
| > > I develop widget X.
| > > 
| > > I contact microsoft and have X incorporated into windows.

I think that most companies do it themselves (or pay to have
it done) for Windows drivers, if their devices don't fit into
some well-known interface.

For Linux drivers, it means finding the right group/project,
if it exists...  Could be hard to find at times.

| > Rotfl.
| 
| OK, bad assumption.
| 
| The only reason I say that is that so many devices work
| "seamlessly" with MSW*
| 
|  - recently I read a review on the X-Arcade retro joystick
| controllers (those heavy "for cabinets and MAME" things).
| The reviewer just plugged it in and Windows literally popped
| up with a dialog telling the "end user recognizable" name of
| the device.
| 
|  - a year or so back, my brother bought a "blue eye" USB
| external 2.5" HDD (really nice looking thing) and on his
| XP box it auto added a new drive (E: or whatever). Seamless.
| 
| So how come devices tend to just plug and play when
| used with Windows (USB HDDs, audi cards, logitec gear)?
| 
| Will a "visible"/ centralized location where manufacturers
| can submit info on their devices (for free software kernels)
| help to get us closer to the "front line" of device support?

I hear this way too much, for 2 reasons.

(a) You are right, we want to get to that model in Linux.

(b) The thing that bugs me (I guess) and that people seem to
overlook again and again is that Linux developers are not
provided the same access to hardware interface specs that other
driver developers have.  That leaves reverse engineering or
trial-and-error (mostly error).  That's an awful way to write
a driver IMO.  So to me it's just a specs issue, and many
companies won't or cannot provide product specs (often because
they don't own the IP inside the product, sometimes because
they _assume_ that it might aid their competition).

--
~Randy

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Denis Vlasenko]

On Wednesday 26 May 2004 13:07, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> Primarily for manufacturers to provide/ submit information to.
> Therefore the second primary target I guess would be developers.
> Thirdly is users.

Any viable manufacturer already has such place.
It's _its own website_.
-- 
vda

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 21:53, Denis Vlasenko wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 May 2004 13:07, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > Primarily for manufacturers to provide/ submit information to.
> > Therefore the second primary target I guess would be developers.
> > Thirdly is users.
> 
> Any viable manufacturer already has such place.
> It's _its own website_.

That is empirically not effective (enough) to achieve this goal
(seamless hardware support/ 'nice user naming') that I wish to
see achieved.

zen

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Horst von Brand]

Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> said:
> On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 21:53, Denis Vlasenko wrote:
> > On Wednesday 26 May 2004 13:07, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > Primarily for manufacturers to provide/ submit information to.
> > > Therefore the second primary target I guess would be developers.
> > > Thirdly is users.
> > 
> > Any viable manufacturer already has such place.
> > It's _its own website_.
> 
> That is empirically not effective (enough) to achieve this goal
> (seamless hardware support/ 'nice user naming') that I wish to
> see achieved.

Then set it up! It is a free world (and free operating system). If it gets
where you want, more power to you!

But remember that most "dosen't work" in Linux is due to vendors not
_willing_ to part with the detailed data to get their junk working, not a
fault of the developers.
-- 
Dr. Horst H. von Brand                   User #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica                     Fono: +56 32 654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria              +56 32 654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile                Fax:  +56 32 797513

Re: drivers DB and id/ info registration

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, 2004-05-27 at 08:26, Horst von Brand wrote:
> Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> said:
> > On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 21:53, Denis Vlasenko wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 26 May 2004 13:07, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
> > > > Primarily for manufacturers to provide/ submit information to.
> > > > Therefore the second primary target I guess would be developers.
> > > > Thirdly is users.
> > > 
> > > Any viable manufacturer already has such place.
> > > It's _its own website_.
> > 
> > That is empirically not effective (enough) to achieve this goal
> > (seamless hardware support/ 'nice user naming') that I wish to
> > see achieved.
> 
> Then set it up! It is a free world (and free operating system). If it gets
> where you want, more power to you!

That is the next step - just fact finding and contribution gathering
at the moment :)

Will post with updates in time.

> But remember that most "dosen't work" in Linux is due to vendors not
> _willing_ to part with the detailed data to get their junk working, not a
> fault of the developers.

Of course.

Thanks
Zenaan