[Qemu-devel] A dream of mine: the ability to run m68k NeXT applications

[Qemu-devel] A dream of mine: the ability to run m68k NeXT applications

[Eagle]

Greetings, all.

I have a dream.  Well, several actually, but two that are applicable  
here.

The first is: I am interested in having the ability to run m68k NeXT  
applications.  There are potentially several ways to do this, but two  
come to mind:
1- a CPU-only emulator that runs on i386 NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, similar to  
what Apple used during the transition from m68k to PPC.
2- a full-blown NeXT hardware emulator.

I am interested in this because I have some m68k-only NeXT  
applications that I want to be able to run.

The second option is obviously very difficult, what with hardware  
difficult to come by, and probably most of it undocumented.  The first  
option, however, might be easier to implement.  Is there a way to do  
this with QEMU?

The second dream that I have is: I am interested in a PPC Mac emulator  
that is capable of running OS X Server v1.2 (AKA Rhapsody).  I am  
interested in this because I no longer have a PPC Mac that is capable  
of running OS X Server.

Is there any chance that either one of these is doable with QEMU?

Thanks.

Daniel

Re: [Qemu-devel] A dream of mine: the ability to run m68k NeXT applications

[François Revol]

> Greetings, all.
>
> I have a dream.  Well, several actually, but two that are applicable
> here.
>
> The first is: I am interested in having the ability to run m68k NeXT
> applications.  There are potentially several ways to do this, but two
> come to mind:
> 1- a CPU-only emulator that runs on i386 NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, similar
> to
> what Apple used during the transition from m68k to PPC.

It should be possible to port qemu to *STEP and add the needed syscall
translations, I suppose.

> 2- a full-blown NeXT hardware emulator.

This would help porting other OSes too...
I'd really like to add NeXT to the possible targets of my m68k Haiku
port...
Though I admit it's only just for fun :)

AFAIK the m68k support in QEMU is not finished, and is mostly coldfire
only.

Another option is to start from an existing 68k emulator.
There is UAE, ARAnyM...

ARAnyM is based on UAE cpu code, but has 040 mmu support (it has now
been backported to UAE as a patch).

> The second dream that I have is: I am interested in a PPC Mac
> emulator
> that is capable of running OS X Server v1.2 (AKA Rhapsody).  I am
> interested in this because I no longer have a PPC Mac that is capable
> of running OS X Server.

Tried PearPC ?

François.

Re: [Qemu-devel] A dream of mine: the ability to run m68k NeXT applications

[Jamie Lokier]

Eagle wrote:
> Greetings, all.
> 
> I have a dream.  Well, several actually, but two that are applicable  
> here.
> 
> The first is: I am interested in having the ability to run m68k NeXT  
> applications.  There are potentially several ways to do this, but two  
> come to mind:
> 1- a CPU-only emulator that runs on i386 NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, similar to  
> what Apple used during the transition from m68k to PPC.
> 2- a full-blown NeXT hardware emulator.
> 
> I am interested in this because I have some m68k-only NeXT  
> applications that I want to be able to run.

CPU emulation is quite easy.

The bits which are hard work are system call translation and hardware
emulation, unfortunately at least one is required to run apps for a
different OS :-)

-- Jamie

Re: [Qemu-devel] A dream of mine: the ability to run m68k NeXT applications

[Eagle]

On May 19, 2009, at 16:18, Jamie Lokier wrote:
> Eagle wrote:
>> Greetings, all.
>>
>> I have a dream.  Well, several actually, but two that are applicable
>> here.
>>
>> The first is: I am interested in having the ability to run m68k NeXT
>> applications.  There are potentially several ways to do this, but two
>> come to mind:
>> 1- a CPU-only emulator that runs on i386 NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, similar  
>> to
>> what Apple used during the transition from m68k to PPC.
>> 2- a full-blown NeXT hardware emulator.
>>
>> I am interested in this because I have some m68k-only NeXT
>> applications that I want to be able to run.
>
> CPU emulation is quite easy.
>
> The bits which are hard work are system call translation and hardware
> emulation, unfortunately at least one is required to run apps for a
> different OS :-)

What I have is some m68k binaries for the black-hardware version of  
NeXTSTEP.  They'll run in the m68k version of either NeXTSTEP or  
OPENSTEP.  Unfortunately all I have to run them on (realistically  
speaking, that is - I still own some NeXTs) is the x86 versions of  
NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP.

<sarcasm>So, it's not as simple as emulating the CPU huh?</sarcasm> :)

I don't know how hard it is to do what I'm asking.  Clearly the CPU  
needs to be emulated, which has obviously been done a million times  
before.  I just don't know what else is involved, and I thought the  
QEMU team might be my best bet at finding an answer.  I'm hoping  
beyond hope that someone here will have the knowledge and the desire  
to undertake a task such as this. :D

Thanks.

Re: [Qemu-devel] A dream of mine: the ability to run m68k NeXT applications

[Laurent Vivier]

Le mardi 19 mai 2009 à 22:10 +0200, François Revol a écrit :
> > Greetings, all.
> > 
> > I have a dream.  Well, several actually, but two that are applicable  
> > here.
> > 
> > The first is: I am interested in having the ability to run m68k NeXT  
> > applications.  There are potentially several ways to do this, but two  
> > come to mind:
> > 1- a CPU-only emulator that runs on i386 NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, similar 
> > to  
> > what Apple used during the transition from m68k to PPC.
> 
> It should be possible to port qemu to *STEP and add the needed syscall 
> translations, I suppose.

I dream of a port of Qemu to AROS, too, to run native Amiga
applications ...

> > 2- a full-blown NeXT hardware emulator.
> 
> This would help porting other OSes too...
> I'd really like to add NeXT to the possible targets of my m68k Haiku 
> port...
> Though I admit it's only just for fun :)
> 
> AFAIK the m68k support in QEMU is not finished, and is mostly coldfire 
> only.

The current qemu implementation of m68k is not m68k (like 68000,
68020, ... , 68060), as you say it is ColdFire which differs in
addressing modes, bit operations, ...

I'm currently trying to port m68k patches from Andreas Schwab to qemu
0.10.

I've also the "M68K Emulator Testsuite" from Gwenole Beauchesne to test
it then (and a lot of real hardware to compare ;-) )

> Another option is to start from an existing 68k emulator.
> There is UAE, ARAnyM...

There is also BasiliskII for Macintosh, but hardware is not emulated:
ROM is patched to use its own drivers.

> ARAnyM is based on UAE cpu code, but has 040 mmu support (it has now 
> been backported to UAE as a patch).

And MMU management differs with the CPU type (68030 MMU != 68040
MMU, ...)

> > The second dream that I have is: I am interested in a PPC Mac 
> > emulator  
> > that is capable of running OS X Server v1.2 (AKA Rhapsody).  I am  
> > interested in this because I no longer have a PPC Mac that is capable  
> > of running OS X Server.
> 
> Tried PearPC ?

Alexander Graf has some patches to run MacOS X Intel in Qemu (but the
Apple EULA forbids this).
OpenBios needs some work to be able to start MacOS X PPC in Qemu.

Is someone tried Mac-on-linux on linux-ppc in qemu-ppc ?

Regards,
Laurent

Re: [Qemu-devel] A dream of mine: the ability to run m68k NeXT applications

[Eagle]

On May 19, 2009, at 16:10, François Revol wrote:
>> Greetings, all.
>>
>> I have a dream.  Well, several actually, but two that are applicable
>> here.
>>
>> The first is: I am interested in having the ability to run m68k NeXT
>> applications.  There are potentially several ways to do this, but two
>> come to mind:
>> 1- a CPU-only emulator that runs on i386 NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, similar
>> to
>> what Apple used during the transition from m68k to PPC.
>
> It should be possible to port qemu to *STEP and add the needed syscall
> translations, I suppose.

That's a nice concise explanation of what might need to be done, but I  
have no idea how to do it. :)  Once upon a time, I was familiar with  
porting applications, but never something like QEMU.  And, I wouldn't  
know the first thing about syscall translations.  Maybe some other  
knowledgeable soul would be interested in doing something like this...

>> 2- a full-blown NeXT hardware emulator.
>
> This would help porting other OSes too...
> I'd really like to add NeXT to the possible targets of my m68k Haiku
> port...
> Though I admit it's only just for fun :)
>
> AFAIK the m68k support in QEMU is not finished, and is mostly coldfire
> only.
>
> Another option is to start from an existing 68k emulator.
> There is UAE, ARAnyM...
>
> ARAnyM is based on UAE cpu code, but has 040 mmu support (it has now
> been backported to UAE as a patch).
>
>> The second dream that I have is: I am interested in a PPC Mac
>> emulator
>> that is capable of running OS X Server v1.2 (AKA Rhapsody).  I am
>> interested in this because I no longer have a PPC Mac that is capable
>> of running OS X Server.
>
> Tried PearPC ?

I did try PearPC, but unfortunately it does not boot a Mac OS X Server  
v1.2 CD.

Laurent's idea of trying Mac-On-Linux on Linux-PPC in QEMU-PPC sounds  
interesting - I'm going to try that in the next week or so, if I have  
the time.

Daniel