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* arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
@ 2018-10-16 22:31 Leroy Tennison
  2018-10-16 23:00 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (15 more replies)
  0 siblings, 16 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Leroy Tennison @ 2018-10-16 22:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
@ 2018-10-16 23:00 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-17  8:43 ` Erik Auerswald
                   ` (14 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-16 23:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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On 10/16/2018 04:31 PM, Leroy Tennison wrote:
> (1.2.3.4 is an arbitrary replacement but doesn't affect the basic issue) 
> What is causing this?  The systems in question have only one interface per 
> subnet but both systems have multiple NICs which are on the same subnets. 
> What I mean is this:  on both systems NIC1 connects to subnet 1, NIC2 to 
> subnet 2 and so on for five NICs and different subnets.  The subnets do 
> have different IP ranges (no overlap).  10.222.109.3 does happen to be 
> on the same system as 1.2.3.4 but it doesn't have the same mac address 
> and it is a physical interface.

I can't tell for sure.  Are the NICs connected to the same L2 network 
segment / broadcast domain?

This almost sounds as if NIC1 is responding to ARP requests for NIC{2..5}.

> Address        HWType   HWAddress           Flags   Mask   Iface
> 10.222.109.3   ether    bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf   C              eth9
> 1.2.3.4        ether    bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf   C              eth9

Unfortunately this doesn't clearly indicate if the NICs are using the 
same L2 network segment / broadcast domain or not.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
  2018-10-16 23:00 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-17  8:43 ` Erik Auerswald
  2018-10-17 16:49 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (13 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Erik Auerswald @ 2018-10-17  8:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

Hi,

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:00:37PM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 10/16/2018 04:31 PM, Leroy Tennison wrote:
> >(1.2.3.4 is an arbitrary replacement but doesn't affect the basic
> >issue) What is causing this?  The systems in question have only
> >one interface per subnet but both systems have multiple NICs which
> >are on the same subnets. What I mean is this:  on both systems
> >NIC1 connects to subnet 1, NIC2 to subnet 2 and so on for five
> >NICs and different subnets.  The subnets do have different IP
> >ranges (no overlap).  10.222.109.3 does happen to be on the same
> >system as 1.2.3.4 but it doesn't have the same mac address and it
> >is a physical interface.
> 
> I can't tell for sure.  Are the NICs connected to the same L2
> network segment / broadcast domain?
> 
> This almost sounds as if NIC1 is responding to ARP requests for NIC{2..5}.

Linux may do that...

> >Address        HWType   HWAddress           Flags   Mask   Iface
> >10.222.109.3   ether    bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf   C              eth9
> >1.2.3.4        ether    bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf   C              eth9
> 
> Unfortunately this doesn't clearly indicate if the NICs are using
> the same L2 network segment / broadcast domain or not.

...especially if the NICs are in different broadcast domains (VLANs).

I am not saying that is the case here, just that it might be the case.
That would be an instance of the "weak host model" problem (see RFC 1122,
section 3.3.4.2, "Weak ES Model"). The problem is primarily that some
expectations about network separation are not fulfilled by the end-system.

Thanks,
Erik
-- 
It's impossible to learn very much by simply sitting in a lecture,
or even by simply doing problems that are assigned.
                        -- Richard P. Feynman

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
  2018-10-16 23:00 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-17  8:43 ` Erik Auerswald
@ 2018-10-17 16:49 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-18  7:10 ` Erik Auerswald
                   ` (12 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-17 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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On 10/17/2018 02:43 AM, Erik Auerswald wrote:
> Linux may do that...
> 
> ...especially if the NICs are in different broadcast domains (VLANs).

I was thinking that it would happen if the NICs were in the /same/ 
broadcast domain.  I.e. NIC1 heard saw an ARP for NIC3's IP before NIC3 
saw it.  Thus NIC1 and NIC3 (and likely the others) were in the same 
broadcast domain.

I can't think of another reason why NICs would see ARP requests for IPs 
bound to other NICs if they weren't in a common broadcast domain.  - 
Sure there are other things, but that would usually involve issues on 
the sending side or magic smoke in the middle.

> I am not saying that is the case here, just that it might be the case.

If the NICs are connected to a common broadcast domain, then I think 
chances are good that it's the "weak host model" problem.

> That would be an instance of the "weak host model" problem (see RFC 1122, 
> section 3.3.4.2, "Weak ES Model"). The problem is primarily that some 
> expectations about network separation are not fulfilled by the end-system.

(I need to brush up on RFC 1122 § 3.3.4.2.  Thank you for the reference 
point.)

I don't know that it's that end systems don't / can't fulfill the 
network separation.  I think that Linux can be configured to (better) 
fulfill it via Kernel tunables and / or a combination of ARPTables / 
IPTables.

I recently read that IPs are supposed to belong to hosts, not individual 
NICs there on, in TCP/IP Illustrated - Volume 1 - Second Edition.  This 
jives with what I've commonly experienced.

I think part of the problem is a disconnect in what people expect and 
what TCP/IP specifications state.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-17 16:49 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-18  7:10 ` Erik Auerswald
  2018-10-18 14:05 ` Leroy Tennison
                   ` (11 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Erik Auerswald @ 2018-10-18  7:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

Hi,

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 10:49:53AM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 10/17/2018 02:43 AM, Erik Auerswald wrote:
> >Linux may do that...
> >
> >...especially if the NICs are in different broadcast domains (VLANs).
> 
> I was thinking that it would happen if the NICs were in the /same/
> broadcast domain.  I.e. NIC1 heard saw an ARP for NIC3's IP before
> NIC3 saw it.  Thus NIC1 and NIC3 (and likely the others) were in the
> same broadcast domain.
> 
> I can't think of another reason why NICs would see ARP requests for
> IPs bound to other NICs if they weren't in a common broadcast
> domain.  - Sure there are other things, but that would usually
> involve issues on the sending side or magic smoke in the middle.

One example I experienced are misconfigured end-systems using IP addresses
from network A in the broadcast domain of network B. The gateway for both
networks was based on the Linux kernel. Misconfigured hosts were able to
reach their gateway without problems (the ARP request was answered from the
"wrong" interface, any interface accepts any IP destined for the host).

> >I am not saying that is the case here, just that it might be the case.
> 
> If the NICs are connected to a common broadcast domain, then I think
> chances are good that it's the "weak host model" problem.
> 
> >That would be an instance of the "weak host model" problem (see
> >RFC 1122, section 3.3.4.2, "Weak ES Model"). The problem is
> >primarily that some expectations about network separation are not
> >fulfilled by the end-system.
> 
> (I need to brush up on RFC 1122 § 3.3.4.2.  Thank you for the
> reference point.)
> 
> I don't know that it's that end systems don't / can't fulfill the
> network separation.  I think that Linux can be configured to
> (better) fulfill it via Kernel tunables and / or a combination of
> ARPTables / IPTables.

AFAIK one can configure ARP to separate more, but not competely. Using
bridges is said to allow for more separation, but I have not yet tested
this.

> I recently read that IPs are supposed to belong to hosts, not
> individual NICs there on, in TCP/IP Illustrated - Volume 1 - Second
> Edition.  This jives with what I've commonly experienced.

For version 4, but this changes with version 6. ;-)

> I think part of the problem is a disconnect in what people expect
> and what TCP/IP specifications state.

I'd say the same. But part of the problem is that the weak host model
is a bit more surprising than the strong host model. In my experience
this is especially true when a weak host is used as a router.

Thanks,
Erik
-- 
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
                        -- Brian W. Kernighan

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18  7:10 ` Erik Auerswald
@ 2018-10-18 14:05 ` Leroy Tennison
  2018-10-18 15:12 ` Erik Auerswald
                   ` (10 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Leroy Tennison @ 2018-10-18 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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ICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0tIEJyaWFuIFcuIEtlcm5pZ2hhbg0K

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18 14:05 ` Leroy Tennison
@ 2018-10-18 15:12 ` Erik Auerswald
  2018-10-18 15:16 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (9 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Erik Auerswald @ 2018-10-18 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

Hi Leroy,

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 02:05:20PM +0000, Leroy Tennison wrote:
> Erik Auerswald wrote "One example I experienced are misconfigured end-systems ..." - Could you explain this a little more thoroughly?  Are you saying that, given a system with 172.16.30.1 address on network A and 10.20.30.1 address on network B that an application is sending to the A network using the 10... address rather than the 172... address?  If so was the application configured to use a particular IP address?

What I meant was a host configured for network A but connected to
network B:

ES 10.20.30.47/24 <-----> GW Iface 172.16.30.1/24

The gateway (GW) did have the IP address 10.20.30.1/24 on another
interface, and the end-system (ES) used that IP address as its default
gateway. ES and GW could ping each other. The GW was a PC with Linux
kernel and GNU userland. Thus the "application" on the multi-NIC PC
was Linux.

> You also wrote "The gateway for both networks was based on the Linux kernel."  Could you be a little more specific?  Were multiple routing tables being used along with 'ip rule' entries or was it a "nexthop with weights" situation or something else?

Just one routing table. A PC with several NICs, GNU/Linux, and
ipforwarding acting as a "router".

> I'm just trying to better understand the situations you encountered so I can recognize them in the future.

In the above mentioned situation, of which I have forgotten most of
the details, end-systems that should no longer have been able to reach
their old Linux-based default gateway, because IP addresses and VLANs
were changed, but the end-systems used the pre-change configuration,
still had full network connectivity.

When using Linux on a PC with several NICs, expect the unexpected. ;)

Thanks,
Erik
-- 
Do things that have never been done before.
                        -- Russell Kirsch

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (5 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18 15:12 ` Erik Auerswald
@ 2018-10-18 15:16 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-18 15:29 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (8 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-18 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1816 bytes --]

On 10/18/2018 01:10 AM, Erik Auerswald wrote:
> Hi,

Hi,

> One example I experienced are misconfigured end-systems using IP addresses 
> from network A in the broadcast domain of network B. The gateway for both 
> networks was based on the Linux kernel. Misconfigured hosts were able 
> to reach their gateway without problems (the ARP request was answered 
> from the "wrong" interface, any interface accepts any IP destined for 
> the host).

I feel like there are details pertinent to the conversation that I'm not 
privy to.  Including shared or separate broadcast domains, routing, IP 
addressing scheme, etc.  Most of which would need to be known from both 
ends of the communications to be able to even speculate.

> AFAIK one can configure ARP to separate more, but not competely. Using 
> bridges is said to allow for more separation, but I have not yet tested 
> this.


I'm going to be doing some testing in this area, partially around this 
conversation and other very similar conversations.

> For version 4, but this changes with version 6. ;-)

Would you please elaborate?

I've not run across anything indicating such.  I've not gotten far 
enough in the reading that I'm doing to delve this deep into IPv6 yet.

> I'd say the same. But part of the problem is that the weak host model 
> is a bit more surprising than the strong host model. In my experience 
> this is especially true when a weak host is used as a router.

I assume that the weak host (end system) model is easier to code for, 
thus more likely to be used on single homed hosts (end systems) a they 
are the vast majority compared to multi-homed hosts (E.S.).

> Thanks,

Thank you!  Good discussion that is banging some of my brain cells together.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (6 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18 15:16 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-18 15:29 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-18 16:19 ` Erik Auerswald
                   ` (7 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-18 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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On 10/18/2018 09:12 AM, Erik Auerswald wrote:
> What I meant was a host configured for network A but connected to 
> network B:
> 
> ES 10.20.30.47/24 <-----> GW Iface 172.16.30.1/24
> 
> The gateway (GW) did have the IP address 10.20.30.1/24 on another 
> interface, and the end-system (ES) used that IP address as its default 
> gateway. ES and GW could ping each other. The GW was a PC with Linux 
> kernel and GNU userland. Thus the "application" on the multi-NIC PC 
> was Linux.
> 
> Just one routing table. A PC with several NICs, GNU/Linux, and 
> ipforwarding acting as a "router".
> 
> In the above mentioned situation, of which I have forgotten most of 
> the details, end-systems that should no longer have been able to reach 
> their old Linux-based default gateway, because IP addresses and VLANs 
> were changed, but the end-systems used the pre-change configuration, 
> still had full network connectivity.

I'll admit that such is a non-intuitive behavior.

However I've learned that such is the expected behavior of a "weak end 
system", which Linux does by default.  I say "by default" because I 
think it's possible to change Linux's behavior.

> When using Linux on a PC with several NICs, expect the unexpected. ;)

Or, change the default so that you get different results.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (7 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18 15:29 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-18 16:19 ` Erik Auerswald
  2018-10-18 16:45 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (6 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Erik Auerswald @ 2018-10-18 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 09:16:12AM -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 10/18/2018 01:10 AM, Erik Auerswald wrote:
> 
> >One example I experienced are misconfigured end-systems using IP
> >addresses from network A in the broadcast domain of network B. The
> >gateway for both networks was based on the Linux kernel.
> >Misconfigured hosts were able to reach their gateway without
> >problems (the ARP request was answered from the "wrong" interface,
> >any interface accepts any IP destined for the host).
> 
> I feel like there are details pertinent to the conversation that I'm
> not privy to.  Including shared or separate broadcast domains,
> routing, IP addressing scheme, etc.  Most of which would need to be
> known from both ends of the communications to be able to even
> speculate.

The original question was a bit scarce on details, thus I substituted
pertinent experience of my own. This is not necessarily easy to follow. ;)

> >AFAIK one can configure ARP to separate more, but not competely.
> >Using bridges is said to allow for more separation, but I have not
> >yet tested this.
> 
> I'm going to be doing some testing in this area, partially around
> this conversation and other very similar conversations.

Please tell us about your results.

> >For version 4, but this changes with version 6. ;-)
> 
> Would you please elaborate?

In IPv6, addresses are assigned to interfaces. This is obvious with
link-local addresses, but true for differently scoped addresses as
well. I am sorry, but I do not know the RFC off the top of my head.

OK, had to search...

RFC 8200, Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification, section 2:

    "interface    a node's attachment to a link."
    "address      an IPv6-layer identifier for an interface or a set of
                  interfaces."

RFC 4291, IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture, section 2.1:

    "IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes."

> I've not run across anything indicating such.  I've not gotten far
> enough in the reading that I'm doing to delve this deep into IPv6
> yet.

IPv6 is an interesting rabbit hole to dive into. ;)

> >I'd say the same. But part of the problem is that the weak host
> >model is a bit more surprising than the strong host model. In my
> >experience this is especially true when a weak host is used as a
> >router.
> 
> I assume that the weak host (end system) model is easier to code
> for, thus more likely to be used on single homed hosts (end systems)
> a they are the vast majority compared to multi-homed hosts (E.S.).

They might even be a bit simpler to use without a 100% correct networking
configuration. ;)

> Thank you!  Good discussion that is banging some of my brain cells together.

Likewise. :)

Thanks,
Erik
-- 
I think of math as a splendid way to learn to think straight.
                        -- Bjarne Stroustrup

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (8 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18 16:19 ` Erik Auerswald
@ 2018-10-18 16:45 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-18 23:38 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (5 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-18 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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On 10/18/2018 10:19 AM, Erik Auerswald wrote:
> Hi,

Hi,

> The original question was a bit scarce on details, thus I substituted 
> pertinent experience of my own. This is not necessarily easy to follow. ;)

Fair enough.

> Please tell us about your results.

Will do.

My intention is to create the following configuration using network 
namespaces:

(A)---1---(B)---2---(C)

Where A, B, and C are the test network namespaces and 1 and 2 are vEth 
pairs between them.

I was originally going to start with one test, see if A could 
communicate with B via 2.B.

After your earlier email about hosts moving from one physical network to 
another, I'm going to see if 1 can be configured with 2.A and 
communicate with 2.B via the 1 network.

I'll share the commands I use to create the lab topology and subsequent 
commands to test.

> In IPv6, addresses are assigned to interfaces. This is obvious with 
> link-local addresses, but true for differently scoped addresses as 
> well. I am sorry, but I do not know the RFC off the top of my head.

Fair enough.

> OK, had to search...

;-)

Thank you.

> RFC 8200, Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification, section 2:
> 
>      "interface    a node's attachment to a link."
>      "address      an IPv6-layer identifier for an interface or a set of
>                    interfaces."
> 
> RFC 4291, IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture, section 2.1:
> 
>      "IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes."

That is quite succinct.  I'm glad that's codified.

> IPv6 is an interesting rabbit hole to dive into. ;)

Yep.

I've done a fair bit with IPv6 at a shallow level.  I'm now going to be 
reading more and getting into a deeper level.

> They might even be a bit simpler to use without a 100% correct networking 
> configuration. ;)

I think that a single homed machine with a single IPv4 address (ignoring 
loopback) is quite simple.  Even if it has a routing table with more 
than a default gateway.

> Likewise. :)

:-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (9 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18 16:45 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-18 23:38 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-19  2:43 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-18 23:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2685 bytes --]

On 10/18/2018 10:45 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> My intention is to create the following configuration using network 
> namespaces:
> 
> (A)---1---(B)---2---(C)
> 
> Where A, B, and C are the test network namespaces and 1 and 2 are vEth 
> pairs between them.
> 
> I was originally going to start with one test, see if A could 
> communicate with B via 2.B.

I can get ARP to respond.  But I've not gotten ICMP to function yet.  It 
looks like it may be, funny enough, an ARP issue.  B has two ARP entries 
for A's IP, one from the what it learned from A's ARP request and an 
incomplete entry.  I've not done any more investigation to see if I can 
make this work.  Yet.  }:-)

> After your earlier email about hosts moving from one physical network to 
> another, I'm going to see if 1 can be configured with 2.A and 
> communicate with 2.B via the 1 network.

I think I'm going to need to reconfigure the network a bit to have B 
function as a router with A being on the wrong interface.  Probably 
something like this:

(A)---1---(B)---2---(C)
            |
            3
            |
           (D)

Such that A looks like it moved from the 3 network to the 1 network. 
With C being something on the other side of "the router", B.

> I'll share the commands I use to create the lab topology and subsequent 
> commands to test.

Here are the commands that I used:

ip netns add a
ip netns add b
ip netns add c
ip link add name a type veth peer name b
ip link set dev a netns b
ip link set dev b netns a
ip link add name b type veth peer name c
ip link set dev b netns c
ip link set dev c netns b

ip netns exec a ip link set dev b up
ip netns exec b ip link set dev a up
ip netns exec b ip link set dev c up
ip netns exec c ip link set dev b up
ip netns exec a ip addr add 192.0.2.1/24 dev b
ip netns exec b ip addr add 192.0.2.2/24 dev a
ip netns exec b ip addr add 198.51.100.2/24 dev c
ip netns exec c ip addr add 198.51.100.3/24 dev b
ip netns exec a ip addr add 198.51.100.1/24 dev b

Note:  These commands are a reconstruction for others, I actually have 
aliases and scripts that do much of this behind the scenes for me.  Let 
me know if you can't reproduce something.

Initially, B wouldn't respond to ARP requests from A for 198.51.100.2 
when I tried to ping it.  I found that I had to reset rp_filter to it's 
default value of 0.  —  I keep rp_filter set to 1 on my machines.

Once I had the network namespace TCP/IP stacks set to defaults, B did in 
fact respond to A's ARP request for an IP on the 2nd network.

I've not done any testing beyond that yet.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (10 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-18 23:38 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-19  2:43 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-19 15:10 ` Grant Taylor
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-19  2:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1883 bytes --]

On 10/18/2018 05:38 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> I can get ARP to respond.  But I've not gotten ICMP to function yet.  It 
> looks like it may be, funny enough, an ARP issue.  B has two ARP entries 
> for A's IP, one from the what it learned from A's ARP request and an 
> incomplete entry.  I've not done any more investigation to see if I can 
> make this work.  Yet.  }:-)

Okay.  I've done some more investigating and I think it is more of a 
routing issue than /just/ an ARP issue.  In short, the kernel doesn't 
quite know what to do with the traffic destined to one subnet with an 
ARP entry for a different interface than the subnet is on.

> I think I'm going to need to reconfigure the network a bit to have B 
> function as a router with A being on the wrong interface.  Probably 
> something like this:
> 
> (A)---1---(B)---2---(C)
>             |
>             3
>             |
>            (D)
> 
> Such that A looks like it moved from the 3 network to the 1 network. 
> With C being something on the other side of "the router", B.

This wasn't enough.

> Once I had the network namespace TCP/IP stacks set to defaults, B did in 
> fact respond to A's ARP request for an IP on the 2nd network.

rp_filter (Reverse Path Filtering) seems to also protect ARP.

The biggest issue that I can see with arp_filter is that it may disclose 
information about other interfaces on a router.  Where as if arp_filter 
is enabled, then the information won't be leaked.

rp_filter vs arp_filter  rp_filter will only protect incorrect routed 
paths.  arp_filter will protect disclosure / leakage from correct routed 
paths.

I plan on starting to keep arp_filter enabled in addition to rp_filter 
on my machines.  At least until I have a reason not to do so.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (11 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-19  2:43 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-19 15:10 ` Grant Taylor
  2018-10-21 22:16 ` dryden
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-19 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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On 10/17/2018 02:43 AM, Erik Auerswald wrote:
> That would be an instance of the "weak host model" problem (see RFC 1122, 
> section 3.3.4.2, "Weak ES Model").

I read that Mac OS X and Windows Vista (and later) use the strong host 
model by default.

TCP/IP Illustrated - Volume 1 - Second Edition § 5.6.1 on page 222.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (12 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-19 15:10 ` Grant Taylor
@ 2018-10-21 22:16 ` dryden
  2018-10-21 22:24 ` dryden
  2018-10-21 23:55 ` Grant Taylor
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: dryden @ 2018-10-21 22:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc


[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1524 bytes --]

On 2018-10-16 22:31, Leroy Tennison wrote:
> (1.2.3.4 is an arbitrary replacement but doesn't affect the basic issue)  What is causing this?  The systems in question have only one interface per subnet but both systems have multiple NICs which are on the same subnets.  What I mean is this:  on both systems NIC1 connects to subnet 1, NIC2 to subnet 2 and so on for five NICs and different subnets.  The subnets do have different IP ranges (no overlap).  10.222.109.3 does happen to be on the same system as 1.2.3.4 but it doesn't have the same mac address and it is a physical interface.
> 
> Address             HWType   HWAddress           Flags  Mask   Iface
> 10.222.109.3     ether          bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf  C                    eth9
> .
> .
> .
> 1.2.3.4               ether         bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf  C                    eth9

On Linux (and many other OSes with IPv4 capability) an IPv4 unicast
address belongs to the entire host, not a specific network interface.
With "typical" settings, the kernel will willingly send ICMP redirects.
If it's annoying to see the addresses from "foreign" addresses show in
the MAC table, consider disabling send and receive of redirects on both
systems.

sysctl:
  net.ipv4.conf.*.accept_redirects
  net.ipv4.conf.*.send_redirects

Probably shouldn't do this if either of the hosts forwards IP packets
though [1], particularly if packets IP forward more than once.

[1] Usual caveat here: if you "know what you're doing" then disregard
this sentence.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (13 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-21 22:16 ` dryden
@ 2018-10-21 22:24 ` dryden
  2018-10-21 23:55 ` Grant Taylor
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: dryden @ 2018-10-21 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc


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On 2018-10-21 22:16, dryden@sky-haven.net wrote:
> On 2018-10-16 22:31, Leroy Tennison wrote:
>> (1.2.3.4 is an arbitrary replacement but doesn't affect the basic issue)  What is causing this?  The systems in question have only one interface per subnet but both systems have multiple NICs which are on the same subnets.  What I mean is this:  on both systems NIC1 connects to subnet 1, NIC2 to subnet 2 and so on for five NICs and different subnets.  The subnets do have different IP ranges (no overlap).  10.222.109.3 does happen to be on the same system as 1.2.3.4 but it doesn't have the same mac address and it is a physical interface.
>>
>> Address             HWType   HWAddress           Flags  Mask   Iface
>> 10.222.109.3     ether          bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf  C                    eth9
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> 1.2.3.4               ether         bc:30:5b:a6:c4:bf  C                    eth9
> 
> On Linux (and many other OSes with IPv4 capability) an IPv4 unicast
> address belongs to the entire host, not a specific network interface.
> With "typical" settings, the kernel will willingly send ICMP redirects.
> If it's annoying to see the addresses from "foreign" addresses show in
> the MAC table, consider disabling send and receive of redirects on both
> systems.
> 
> sysctl:
>   net.ipv4.conf.*.accept_redirects
>   net.ipv4.conf.*.send_redirects
> 
> Probably shouldn't do this if either of the hosts forwards IP packets
> though [1], particularly if packets IP forward more than once.
> 
> [1] Usual caveat here: if you "know what you're doing" then disregard
> this sentence.

... And as usual, while researching this, I found settings that might be
even more relevant to your situation:

...linux/Documentation/networking/ip-sysctl.txt:

- arp_announce
- arp_ignore

which may be more useful for keeping each host's neighbor table "clean"
of foreign addresses, and is probably safer than disabling ICMP redirects.

Cheers, and apologies for replying to my reply.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

* Re: arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses
  2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
                   ` (14 preceding siblings ...)
  2018-10-21 22:24 ` dryden
@ 2018-10-21 23:55 ` Grant Taylor
  15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor @ 2018-10-21 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lartc

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On 10/21/2018 04:24 PM, dryden@sky-haven.net wrote:
> ... And as usual, while researching this, I found settings that might be
> even more relevant to your situation:
> 
> ...linux/Documentation/networking/ip-sysctl.txt:

There's LOTS of good information in that file.

> - arp_announce
> - arp_ignore

I am fond of arp_filter (1) and rp_filter (1).

It makes a host behave more like a strong end system (RFC 1122).

> which may be more useful for keeping each host's neighbor table "clean"
> of foreign addresses, and is probably safer than disabling ICMP redirects.

Agreed.

> Cheers, and apologies for replying to my reply.

Apology returned to sender as it was unnecessary.  ;-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2018-10-21 23:55 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2018-10-16 22:31 arp table - same mac address shows two ip addresses Leroy Tennison
2018-10-16 23:00 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-17  8:43 ` Erik Auerswald
2018-10-17 16:49 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-18  7:10 ` Erik Auerswald
2018-10-18 14:05 ` Leroy Tennison
2018-10-18 15:12 ` Erik Auerswald
2018-10-18 15:16 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-18 15:29 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-18 16:19 ` Erik Auerswald
2018-10-18 16:45 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-18 23:38 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-19  2:43 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-19 15:10 ` Grant Taylor
2018-10-21 22:16 ` dryden
2018-10-21 22:24 ` dryden
2018-10-21 23:55 ` Grant Taylor

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