From: Richard Weinberger <richard@nod.at>
To: Cheng Ming Lin <linchengming884@gmail.com>
Cc: chengzhihao1 <chengzhihao1@huawei.com>,
Miquel Raynal <miquel.raynal@bootlin.com>,
Vignesh Raghavendra <vigneshr@ti.com>,
linux-mtd <linux-mtd@lists.infradead.org>,
linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Alvin Zhou <alvinzhou@mxic.com.tw>, leoyu <leoyu@mxic.com.tw>,
Cheng Ming Lin <chengminglin@mxic.com.tw>
Subject: Re: [RFC] mtd: ubi: skip programming unused bits in ubi headers
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 09:57:28 +0200 (CEST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1899901955.27456.1757663848457.JavaMail.zimbra@nod.at> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAAyq3SZT67uwggdNX99qEc4bwSkUw2U=sCc6mon064D=f7oH=w@mail.gmail.com>
----- Ursprüngliche Mail -----
> Von: "Cheng Ming Lin" <linchengming884@gmail.com>
>> That's the crucial question. Is this true for all NAND chips?
>> Do avoid larger writes of 0xFF patterns file systems such as UBIFS
>> also use compression a lot.
>> At least that's what I have been told when I asked 10+ years ago
>> how UBI works.
>
> You are correct that there is an issue when blank data pages are repeatedly
> erased. This can lead to cells entering a too deep VT state, which may
> cause program failures in subsequent operations.
>
> To address this, newer NAND generations typically perform a pre-program
> step before executing the actual erase. This keeps the VT distribution from
> going too deep, thereby avoiding the blank-page degradation problem.
> Such pre-PGM techniques have been widely adopted for roughly the past
> 10–15 years.
>
> Additionally, JESD22-A117E (page 6, section 4.1.2.1) specifies examples of
> acceptable data patterns, including solid-programmed, checkerboard/inverse-
> checkerboard, and checkerboard-with-fill patterns. According to
> qualification knowledge bases, using 0x00 can sometimes trigger special
> failure modes, whereas writing 0xFF is more robust.
>
> Additionally, the Kioxia TC58NVG1S3HTA00 datasheet (page 63) also notes
> that continuous program/erase cycling with a high percentage of ‘0'
> bits in the data pattern can accelerate block endurance degradation.
> This further supports avoiding large 0x00 patterns.
Thanks for the detailed answer!
So, yes let's apply this change.
Thanks,
//richard
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http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-mtd/
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Richard Weinberger <richard@nod.at>
To: Cheng Ming Lin <linchengming884@gmail.com>
Cc: chengzhihao1 <chengzhihao1@huawei.com>,
Miquel Raynal <miquel.raynal@bootlin.com>,
Vignesh Raghavendra <vigneshr@ti.com>,
linux-mtd <linux-mtd@lists.infradead.org>,
linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Alvin Zhou <alvinzhou@mxic.com.tw>, leoyu <leoyu@mxic.com.tw>,
Cheng Ming Lin <chengminglin@mxic.com.tw>
Subject: Re: [RFC] mtd: ubi: skip programming unused bits in ubi headers
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 09:57:28 +0200 (CEST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1899901955.27456.1757663848457.JavaMail.zimbra@nod.at> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAAyq3SZT67uwggdNX99qEc4bwSkUw2U=sCc6mon064D=f7oH=w@mail.gmail.com>
----- Ursprüngliche Mail -----
> Von: "Cheng Ming Lin" <linchengming884@gmail.com>
>> That's the crucial question. Is this true for all NAND chips?
>> Do avoid larger writes of 0xFF patterns file systems such as UBIFS
>> also use compression a lot.
>> At least that's what I have been told when I asked 10+ years ago
>> how UBI works.
>
> You are correct that there is an issue when blank data pages are repeatedly
> erased. This can lead to cells entering a too deep VT state, which may
> cause program failures in subsequent operations.
>
> To address this, newer NAND generations typically perform a pre-program
> step before executing the actual erase. This keeps the VT distribution from
> going too deep, thereby avoiding the blank-page degradation problem.
> Such pre-PGM techniques have been widely adopted for roughly the past
> 10–15 years.
>
> Additionally, JESD22-A117E (page 6, section 4.1.2.1) specifies examples of
> acceptable data patterns, including solid-programmed, checkerboard/inverse-
> checkerboard, and checkerboard-with-fill patterns. According to
> qualification knowledge bases, using 0x00 can sometimes trigger special
> failure modes, whereas writing 0xFF is more robust.
>
> Additionally, the Kioxia TC58NVG1S3HTA00 datasheet (page 63) also notes
> that continuous program/erase cycling with a high percentage of ‘0'
> bits in the data pattern can accelerate block endurance degradation.
> This further supports avoiding large 0x00 patterns.
Thanks for the detailed answer!
So, yes let's apply this change.
Thanks,
//richard
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-09-12 7:57 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 18+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-08-12 5:19 [RFC] mtd: ubi: skip programming unused bits in ubi headers Cheng Ming Lin
2025-08-12 5:19 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-08-12 6:57 ` Richard Weinberger
2025-08-12 6:57 ` Richard Weinberger
2025-08-14 10:11 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-08-14 10:11 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-08-14 11:30 ` Richard Weinberger
2025-08-14 11:30 ` Richard Weinberger
2025-09-05 3:21 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-09-05 3:21 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-09-12 7:57 ` Richard Weinberger [this message]
2025-09-12 7:57 ` Richard Weinberger
2025-09-12 7:57 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-09-12 7:57 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-09-12 8:04 ` Richard Weinberger
2025-09-12 8:04 ` Richard Weinberger
2025-09-12 8:19 ` Cheng Ming Lin
2025-09-12 8:19 ` Cheng Ming Lin
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