Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Dave Cameron]

Hi,

Is anyone working on (Free) HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

Is this possible without entering into some kind of NDA with Microsoft?

Is the HVM Paravirt ABI stable yet? if not when will it be?

If anyone could point me towards references for this kind of thing I'd
be interested in giving it a go (Writing Drivers for Windows).
-- 
Dave Cameron

Systems Support
QUICKCIRCUIT
ELECTRONIC DESIGN & CONTRACT MANUFACTURING
Tel. +64 9 448 1901 ext 836
Fax. +64 9 448 1903
www.quickcircuit.co.nz
2 Piermark Drive. PO Box 302859, North Harbour, Auckland, NZ 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 08:46:49AM +1200, Dave Cameron wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is anyone working on (Free) HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?
> 
> Is this possible without entering into some kind of NDA with Microsoft?
> 
> Is the HVM Paravirt ABI stable yet? if not when will it be?
> 
> If anyone could point me towards references for this kind of thing I'd
> be interested in giving it a go (Writing Drivers for Windows).

Hi!

Did you get any replies? 

-- Pasi

> -- 
> Dave Cameron
> 
> Systems Support
> QUICKCIRCUIT
> ELECTRONIC DESIGN & CONTRACT MANUFACTURING
> Tel. +64 9 448 1901 ext 836
> Fax. +64 9 448 1903
> www.quickcircuit.co.nz
> 2 Piermark Drive. PO Box 302859, North Harbour, Auckland, NZ 
> 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Dave Cameron]

On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 16:57 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 08:46:49AM +1200, Dave Cameron wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Is anyone working on (Free) HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?
> > 
> > Is this possible without entering into some kind of NDA with Microsoft?
> > 
> > Is the HVM Paravirt ABI stable yet? if not when will it be?
> > 
> > If anyone could point me towards references for this kind of thing I'd
> > be interested in giving it a go (Writing Drivers for Windows).
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Did you get any replies? 
> 
> -- Pasi
> 

No, and I don't really have time anymore, as I'm rushing to get a
product shipped (Real work got in the way ;).

 I might look into it in November/December, but I'm in a real rush right
now and I just don't have time.

> > -- 
> > Dave Cameron
> > 
> > Systems Support
> > QUICKCIRCUIT
> > ELECTRONIC DESIGN & CONTRACT MANUFACTURING
> > Tel. +64 9 448 1901 ext 836
> > Fax. +64 9 448 1903
> > www.quickcircuit.co.nz
> > 2 Piermark Drive. PO Box 302859, North Harbour, Auckland, NZ 
> > 
-- 
Dave Cameron

Systems Support
QUICKCIRCUIT
ELECTRONIC DESIGN & CONTRACT MANUFACTURING
Tel. +64 9 448 1901 ext 836
Fax. +64 9 448 1903
www.quickcircuit.co.nz
2 Piermark Drive. PO Box 302859, North Harbour, Auckland, NZ 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 10:07:55AM +1300, Dave Cameron wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 16:57 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 08:46:49AM +1200, Dave Cameron wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Is anyone working on (Free) HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?
> > > 
> > > Is this possible without entering into some kind of NDA with Microsoft?
> > > 
> > > Is the HVM Paravirt ABI stable yet? if not when will it be?
> > > 
> > > If anyone could point me towards references for this kind of thing I'd
> > > be interested in giving it a go (Writing Drivers for Windows).
> > 
> > Hi!
> > 
> > Did you get any replies? 
> > 
> > -- Pasi
> > 
> 
> No, and I don't really have time anymore, as I'm rushing to get a
> product shipped (Real work got in the way ;).
> 
>  I might look into it in November/December, but I'm in a real rush right
> now and I just don't have time.
>

OK.

How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, Fujitsu.. are you writing windows PV drivers? 

-- Pasi
 
> > > -- 
> > > Dave Cameron
> > > 
> > > Systems Support
> > > QUICKCIRCUIT
> > > ELECTRONIC DESIGN & CONTRACT MANUFACTURING
> > > Tel. +64 9 448 1901 ext 836
> > > Fax. +64 9 448 1903
> > > www.quickcircuit.co.nz
> > > 2 Piermark Drive. PO Box 302859, North Harbour, Auckland, NZ 
> > > 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Ben Thomas]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 215 bytes --]

Yes; we have.

On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>
>
> OK.
>
> How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, Fujitsu.. are
> you writing windows PV drivers?
>
> -- Pasi
>
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 480 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 138 bytes --]

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http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 07:37:36AM -0400, Ben Thomas wrote:
> Yes; we have.
> 

OK. Thanks for the info. 
Are those going to be publicly available (=open source) ?

-- Pasi

> On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
> >
> >
> >OK.
> >
> >How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, Fujitsu.. are
> >you writing windows PV drivers?
> >
> >-- Pasi
> >
> >

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Daniel P. Berrange]

Are they compatible with the current xen-unstable or 3.0.3 releases, 
or do they have a dependnacy on the other hypervisor changes in the
VirtualIron codepath posted a few weeks back ?

Regards,
Dan.

On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 07:37:36AM -0400, Ben Thomas wrote:
> Yes; we have.
> 
> On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
> >
> >
> >OK.
> >
> >How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, Fujitsu.. are
> >you writing windows PV drivers?
> >
> >-- Pasi
> >
> >

> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel


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Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Ben Thomas]

Hi,

Our current PV on HVM drivers are based upon work that was submitted to
xen-devel back in April.  As you might recall, our focus has been
concurrent support of 32 and 64 bit fully virtualized domains, and all
of our work supports this.  I'm sure that the concepts of what we've
done, and what was placed into the open source project starting in
July, are quite similar. However, given the time frames involved, and
the base work not being included back in April, I also have no doubts
that the interfaces aren't identical.

As noted, we have these drivers running and performing extremely well
at our beta customers.  We support concurrent usage for both 32 and
64 bit user domains.  The Linux code was released a short while back,
and is open source and available for download on our website.

The Windows drivers were completely developed in-house, and there are
currently internal discussions about whether or not we will release
them as open source.

-b


Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> Are they compatible with the current xen-unstable or 3.0.3 releases, 
> or do they have a dependnacy on the other hypervisor changes in the
> VirtualIron codepath posted a few weeks back ?
> 
> Regards,
> Dan.
> 
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 07:37:36AM -0400, Ben Thomas wrote:
> 
>>Yes; we have.
>>
>>On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>OK.
>>>
>>>How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, Fujitsu.. are
>>>you writing windows PV drivers?
>>>
>>>-- Pasi
>>>
>>>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Thomas                                         Virtual Iron Software
bthomas@virtualiron.com                            Tower 1, Floor 2
978-849-1214                                       900 Chelmsford Street
                                                    Lowell, MA 01851

RE: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Vessey, Bruce A]

It would be nice if somebody releases HVM paravirt drivers for Windows as open source, but I'm not holding my breath.  Why?  Because of the Microsoft DDK license.  There's no requirement that a Windows device driver developer use the Microsoft DDK, but in my experience most do.  The typical methodology for a Windows driver developer is to take the sample code from the DDK as a starting point, and build the driver from there.  But the DDK has some interesting licensing restrictions that, to me, don't look compatible with open source.  The Microsoft DDK license is available at http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/ServerSP1DDKEULA.mspx  Sections 3 & 4 look particularly problematic.

Maybe somebody out there is developing (or has developed) Windows drivers without any encumbrances from the Windows DDK.  I think that's the only way we'll see open source Windows drivers.

           - Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com [mailto:xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of Ben Thomas
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:07 PM
To: Daniel P. Berrange
Cc: xen-devel@lists.xensource.com; Dave Cameron
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

Hi,

Our current PV on HVM drivers are based upon work that was submitted to xen-devel back in April.  As you might recall, our focus has been concurrent support of 32 and 64 bit fully virtualized domains, and all of our work supports this.  I'm sure that the concepts of what we've done, and what was placed into the open source project starting in July, are quite similar. However, given the time frames involved, and the base work not being included back in April, I also have no doubts that the interfaces aren't identical.

As noted, we have these drivers running and performing extremely well at our beta customers.  We support concurrent usage for both 32 and
64 bit user domains.  The Linux code was released a short while back, and is open source and available for download on our website.

The Windows drivers were completely developed in-house, and there are currently internal discussions about whether or not we will release them as open source.

-b


Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> Are they compatible with the current xen-unstable or 3.0.3 releases, 
> or do they have a dependnacy on the other hypervisor changes in the 
> VirtualIron codepath posted a few weeks back ?
> 
> Regards,
> Dan.
> 
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 07:37:36AM -0400, Ben Thomas wrote:
> 
>>Yes; we have.
>>
>>On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>OK.
>>>
>>>How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, Fujitsu.. 
>>>are you writing windows PV drivers?
>>>
>>>-- Pasi
>>>
>>>

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Thomas                                         Virtual Iron Software
bthomas@virtualiron.com                            Tower 1, Floor 2
978-849-1214                                       900 Chelmsford Street
                                                    Lowell, MA 01851

_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 12:08:02PM -0500, Vessey, Bruce A wrote:
> It would be nice if somebody releases HVM paravirt drivers for Windows as open source, but I'm not holding my breath.
> Why? Because of the Microsoft DDK license.  There's no requirement that a Windows device driver developer use the
> Microsoft DDK, but in my experience most do.  The typical methodology for a Windows driver developer is to take 
> the sample code from the DDK as a starting point, and build the driver from there.  But the DDK has some interesting
> licensing restrictions that, to me, don't look compatible with open source.  The Microsoft DDK license is available at
> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/ServerSP1DDKEULA.mspx  Sections 3 & 4 look particularly problematic.
> 
> Maybe somebody out there is developing (or has developed) Windows drivers without any encumbrances from the Windows DDK.
> I think that's the only way we'll see open source Windows drivers.
>

Thanks for pointing this out. 

How about XenSource/RedHat/Novell guys.. any comments? 
 
-- Pasi

>            - Bruce
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com [mailto:xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of Ben Thomas
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:07 PM
> To: Daniel P. Berrange
> Cc: xen-devel@lists.xensource.com; Dave Cameron
> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Our current PV on HVM drivers are based upon work that was submitted to xen-devel back in April.  As you might recall, our focus has been concurrent support of 32 and 64 bit fully virtualized domains, and all of our work supports this.  I'm sure that the concepts of what we've done, and what was placed into the open source project starting in July, are quite similar. However, given the time frames involved, and the base work not being included back in April, I also have no doubts that the interfaces aren't identical.
> 
> As noted, we have these drivers running and performing extremely well at our beta customers.  We support concurrent usage for both 32 and
> 64 bit user domains.  The Linux code was released a short while back, and is open source and available for download on our website.
> 
> The Windows drivers were completely developed in-house, and there are currently internal discussions about whether or not we will release them as open source.
> 
> -b
> 
> 
> Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > Are they compatible with the current xen-unstable or 3.0.3 releases, 
> > or do they have a dependnacy on the other hypervisor changes in the 
> > VirtualIron codepath posted a few weeks back ?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Dan.
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 07:37:36AM -0400, Ben Thomas wrote:
> > 
> >>Yes; we have.
> >>
> >>On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>OK.
> >>>
> >>>How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, Fujitsu.. 
> >>>are you writing windows PV drivers?
> >>>
> >>>-- Pasi
> >>>
> >>>
> 
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ben Thomas                                         Virtual Iron Software
> bthomas@virtualiron.com                            Tower 1, Floor 2
> 978-849-1214                                       900 Chelmsford Street
>                                                     Lowell, MA 01851
> 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Hiromichi Itou]

Hi,

We can use HVM Paravirt driver for windows now.
It is included in XenEnterprise3.1.0b1.

Is there a plan to make this driver to open source?

---
Begi.net (http://Begi.net)
Director of Engineering Department  　
Hiromichi Ito (ito@Begi.net)

On 2006/11/02, at 17:50, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 12:08:02PM -0500, Vessey, Bruce A wrote:
>> It would be nice if somebody releases HVM paravirt drivers for  
>> Windows as open source, but I'm not holding my breath.
>> Why? Because of the Microsoft DDK license.  There's no requirement  
>> that a Windows device driver developer use the
>> Microsoft DDK, but in my experience most do.  The typical  
>> methodology for a Windows driver developer is to take
>> the sample code from the DDK as a starting point, and build the  
>> driver from there.  But the DDK has some interesting
>> licensing restrictions that, to me, don't look compatible with  
>> open source.  The Microsoft DDK license is available at
>> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/ServerSP1DDKEULA.mspx   
>> Sections 3 & 4 look particularly problematic.
>>
>> Maybe somebody out there is developing (or has developed) Windows  
>> drivers without any encumbrances from the Windows DDK.
>> I think that's the only way we'll see open source Windows drivers.
>>
>
> Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> How about XenSource/RedHat/Novell guys.. any comments?
>
> -- Pasi
>
>>            - Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com [mailto:xen-devel- 
>> bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of Ben Thomas
>> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:07 PM
>> To: Daniel P. Berrange
>> Cc: xen-devel@lists.xensource.com; Dave Cameron
>> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers  
>> for windows?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Our current PV on HVM drivers are based upon work that was  
>> submitted to xen-devel back in April.  As you might recall, our  
>> focus has been concurrent support of 32 and 64 bit fully  
>> virtualized domains, and all of our work supports this.  I'm sure  
>> that the concepts of what we've done, and what was placed into the  
>> open source project starting in July, are quite similar. However,  
>> given the time frames involved, and the base work not being  
>> included back in April, I also have no doubts that the interfaces  
>> aren't identical.
>>
>> As noted, we have these drivers running and performing extremely  
>> well at our beta customers.  We support concurrent usage for both  
>> 32 and
>> 64 bit user domains.  The Linux code was released a short while  
>> back, and is open source and available for download on our website.
>>
>> The Windows drivers were completely developed in-house, and there  
>> are currently internal discussions about whether or not we will  
>> release them as open source.
>>
>> -b
>>
>>
>> Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
>>> Are they compatible with the current xen-unstable or 3.0.3 releases,
>>> or do they have a dependnacy on the other hypervisor changes in the
>>> VirtualIron codepath posted a few weeks back ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dan.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 07:37:36AM -0400, Ben Thomas wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes; we have.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM,  
>>>>> Fujitsu..
>>>>> are you writing windows PV drivers?
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Pasi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ---
>> Ben Thomas                                         Virtual Iron  
>> Software
>> bthomas@virtualiron.com                            Tower 1, Floor 2
>> 978-849-1214                                       900 Chelmsford  
>> Street
>>                                                     Lowell, MA 01851
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

RE: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Walker, Bruce J (HP-Labs)]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4672 bytes --]

One might reasonably expect something from Novell is this area, given the recently announced relationship with Microsoft?
 

-----Original Message-----
From: xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com [mailto:xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of Hiromichi Itou
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 3:03 AM
To: Pasi Kärkkäinen
Cc: Xen Devel
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

Hi,

We can use HVM Paravirt driver for windows now.
It is included in XenEnterprise3.1.0b1.

Is there a plan to make this driver to open source?

---
Begi.net (http://Begi.net)
Director of Engineering Department  　
Hiromichi Ito (ito@Begi.net)

On 2006/11/02, at 17:50, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 12:08:02PM -0500, Vessey, Bruce A wrote:
>> It would be nice if somebody releases HVM paravirt drivers for 
>> Windows as open source, but I'm not holding my breath.
>> Why? Because of the Microsoft DDK license.  There's no requirement 
>> that a Windows device driver developer use the Microsoft DDK, but in 
>> my experience most do.  The typical methodology for a Windows driver 
>> developer is to take the sample code from the DDK as a starting 
>> point, and build the driver from there.  But the DDK has some 
>> interesting licensing restrictions that, to me, don't look compatible 
>> with open source.  The Microsoft DDK license is available at
>> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/ServerSP1DDKEULA.mspx   
>> Sections 3 & 4 look particularly problematic.
>>
>> Maybe somebody out there is developing (or has developed) Windows 
>> drivers without any encumbrances from the Windows DDK.
>> I think that's the only way we'll see open source Windows drivers.
>>
>
> Thanks for pointing this out.
>
> How about XenSource/RedHat/Novell guys.. any comments?
>
> -- Pasi
>
>>            - Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com [mailto:xen-devel- 
>> bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of Ben Thomas
>> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:07 PM
>> To: Daniel P. Berrange
>> Cc: xen-devel@lists.xensource.com; Dave Cameron
>> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers 
>> for windows?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Our current PV on HVM drivers are based upon work that was submitted 
>> to xen-devel back in April.  As you might recall, our focus has been 
>> concurrent support of 32 and 64 bit fully virtualized domains, and 
>> all of our work supports this.  I'm sure that the concepts of what 
>> we've done, and what was placed into the open source project starting 
>> in July, are quite similar. However, given the time frames involved, 
>> and the base work not being included back in April, I also have no 
>> doubts that the interfaces aren't identical.
>>
>> As noted, we have these drivers running and performing extremely well 
>> at our beta customers.  We support concurrent usage for both
>> 32 and
>> 64 bit user domains.  The Linux code was released a short while back, 
>> and is open source and available for download on our website.
>>
>> The Windows drivers were completely developed in-house, and there are 
>> currently internal discussions about whether or not we will release 
>> them as open source.
>>
>> -b
>>
>>
>> Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
>>> Are they compatible with the current xen-unstable or 3.0.3 releases, 
>>> or do they have a dependnacy on the other hypervisor changes in the 
>>> VirtualIron codepath posted a few weeks back ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dan.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 07:37:36AM -0400, Ben Thomas wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes; we have.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/27/06, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> How about people from XenSource, VirtualIron, Intel, IBM, 
>>>>> Fujitsu..
>>>>> are you writing windows PV drivers?
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Pasi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>> Ben Thomas                                         Virtual Iron  
>> Software
>> bthomas@virtualiron.com                            Tower 1, Floor 2
>> 978-849-1214                                       900 Chelmsford  
>> Street
>>                                                     Lowell, MA 01851
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel


_______________________________________________
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[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 138 bytes --]

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Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Alan]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:55:35 -0600
"Walker, Bruce J (HP-Labs)" <bruce.walker@hp.com> wrote:

> One might reasonably expect something from Novell is this area, given the recently announced relationship with Microsoft?
>  


If ZDnet is correct (always an "if") then the following rather limits any
value here

---
Microsoft is also making some other changes as far as virtualisation
goes. Although any Windows version can serve as the primary, or host,
operating system, only the Business and Ultimate versions of Vista can
run as guest operating systems in virtualisation. In Windows XP, each
virtual instance of the OS required a separate licence, but there were no
restrictions on which versions could act as guests.

---

http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Microsoft_limits_Vista_transfers/0,130061733,339271684,00.htm?ref=search

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Pasi Kärkkäinen]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 06:16:41PM +0000, Alan wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:55:35 -0600
> "Walker, Bruce J (HP-Labs)" <bruce.walker@hp.com> wrote:
> 
> > One might reasonably expect something from Novell is this area, given the recently announced relationship with Microsoft?
> >  
> 
> 
> If ZDnet is correct (always an "if") then the following rather limits any
> value here
> 

Also the fact that XenSource guys don't want to comment on this doesn't
promise very good.. they seem to already have PV drivers for Windows, but I
guess those won't be opensource or even freely available :(

-- Pasi

> ---
> Microsoft is also making some other changes as far as virtualisation
> goes. Although any Windows version can serve as the primary, or host,
> operating system, only the Business and Ultimate versions of Vista can
> run as guest operating systems in virtualisation. In Windows XP, each
> virtual instance of the OS required a separate licence, but there were no
> restrictions on which versions could act as guests.
> 
> ---
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Microsoft_limits_Vista_transfers/0,130061733,339271684,00.htm?ref=search
> 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Ky Srinivasan]

I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be open-sourced. I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.

Regards,

K. Y

>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at  8:25 AM, in message
<20061115132503.GK7490@edu.joroinen.fi>, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi>
wrote: 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 06:16:41PM +0000, Alan wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:55:35 - 0600
>> "Walker, Bruce J (HP- Labs)" <bruce.walker@hp.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > One might reasonably expect something from Novell is this area, given the 
> recently announced relationship with Microsoft?
>> >  
>> 
>> 
>> If ZDnet is correct (always an "if") then the following rather limits any
>> value here
>> 
> 
> Also the fact that XenSource guys don't want to comment on this doesn't
> promise very good.. they seem to already have PV drivers for Windows, but I
> guess those won't be opensource or even freely available :(
> 
> --  Pasi
> 
>> ---
>> Microsoft is also making some other changes as far as virtualisation
>> goes. Although any Windows version can serve as the primary, or host,
>> operating system, only the Business and Ultimate versions of Vista can
>> run as guest operating systems in virtualisation. In Windows XP, each
>> virtual instance of the OS required a separate licence, but there were no
>> restrictions on which versions could act as guests.
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> 
> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Microsoft_limits_Vista_transfers/0,
> 130061733,339271684,00.htm?ref=search
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen- devel mailing list
> Xen- devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen- devel

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Andrew D. Ball]

That would be sad, but is possible.  Just like I don't believe Linux
drivers should be allowed to be non-GPL, not allowing drivers for
Windows to be GPL makes sense, unless the kernel is organized with much
more isolation as more of a microkernel.

Anyone's more informed thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Peace.
Andrew

On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 07:46 -0700, Ky Srinivasan wrote:
> I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be open-sourced. I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> K. Y
> 
> >>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at  8:25 AM, in message
> <20061115132503.GK7490@edu.joroinen.fi>, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi>
> wrote: 
> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 06:16:41PM +0000, Alan wrote:
> >> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:55:35 - 0600
> >> "Walker, Bruce J (HP- Labs)" <bruce.walker@hp.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > One might reasonably expect something from Novell is this area, given the 
> > recently announced relationship with Microsoft?
> >> >  
> >> 
> >> 
> >> If ZDnet is correct (always an "if") then the following rather limits any
> >> value here
> >> 
> > 
> > Also the fact that XenSource guys don't want to comment on this doesn't
> > promise very good.. they seem to already have PV drivers for Windows, but I
> > guess those won't be opensource or even freely available :(
> > 
> > --  Pasi
> > 
> >> ---
> >> Microsoft is also making some other changes as far as virtualisation
> >> goes. Although any Windows version can serve as the primary, or host,
> >> operating system, only the Business and Ultimate versions of Vista can
> >> run as guest operating systems in virtualisation. In Windows XP, each
> >> virtual instance of the OS required a separate licence, but there were no
> >> restrictions on which versions could act as guests.
> >> 
> >> ---
> >> 
> >> 
> > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Microsoft_limits_Vista_transfers/0,
> > 130061733,339271684,00.htm?ref=search
> >> 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Xen- devel mailing list
> > Xen- devel@lists.xensource.com
> > http://lists.xensource.com/xen- devel
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Michael Paesold]

Andrew D. Ball wrote:
> That would be sad, but is possible.  Just like I don't believe Linux
> drivers should be allowed to be non-GPL, not allowing drivers for
> Windows to be GPL makes sense, unless the kernel is organized with much
> more isolation as more of a microkernel.
> 
> Anyone's more informed thoughts on this would be appreciated.
> 
> Peace.
> Andrew
> 
> On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 07:46 -0700, Ky Srinivasan wrote:
>> I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be open-sourced. I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.

I don't believe the problem is with Windows drivers, but with the Windows 
Driver Development Kit. The DDK has a license incompatible with the GPL. I 
think writing a driver without the kit would still be possible, although 
difficult because it would require much more knowledge about the Windows 
kernel.

Remarks: no facts, but just what I read on mailing lists.

Best Regards
Michael Paesold

RE: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Nowatzki, Thomas L]

 
Several companies already sell products that include virtualized Windows
drivers.  I have no idea of how they developed and implemented their
drivers.  But assuming it was by a legal way, then I don't understand
how their making their source publicly available would be an issue.  



-----Original Message-----
From: xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com
[mailto:xen-devel-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Paesold
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:15 PM
To: aball@linux.vnet.ibm.com
Cc: Ky Srinivasan; Xen Devel; Hiromichi Itou; Alan; Bruce J (HP-Labs)
Walker
Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for
windows?

Andrew D. Ball wrote:
> That would be sad, but is possible.  Just like I don't believe Linux 
> drivers should be allowed to be non-GPL, not allowing drivers for 
> Windows to be GPL makes sense, unless the kernel is organized with 
> much more isolation as more of a microkernel.
> 
> Anyone's more informed thoughts on this would be appreciated.
> 
> Peace.
> Andrew
> 
> On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 07:46 -0700, Ky Srinivasan wrote:
>> I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be
open-sourced. I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.

I don't believe the problem is with Windows drivers, but with the
Windows Driver Development Kit. The DDK has a license incompatible with
the GPL. I think writing a driver without the kit would still be
possible, although difficult because it would require much more
knowledge about the Windows kernel.

Remarks: no facts, but just what I read on mailing lists.

Best Regards
Michael Paesold

_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1524 bytes --]

On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 08:14:52PM +0100, Michael Paesold wrote:
> >On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 07:46 -0700, Ky Srinivasan wrote:
> >>I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be open-sourced. 
> >>I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.
> 
> I don't believe the problem is with Windows drivers, but with the Windows 
> Driver Development Kit. The DDK has a license incompatible with the GPL. I 
> think writing a driver without the kit would still be possible, although 
> difficult because it would require much more knowledge about the Windows 
> kernel.
> 
> Remarks: no facts, but just what I read on mailing lists.

I remember reading something of that effect. However, I think that was
only for GPL, and that BSD was accepted, but that may be because you can
distribute binary-only BSD code.

After reading the license [1], I'm more confused. Section 3 seems to be
the only thing limiting redistribution of generated code. And it seems
only to apply to drivers based on sample code (section 2) and WQHL
certified drivers.

But I'm no lawyer or native english speaker, so I'm probably wrong.

Being that the case, there must be some information about drivers in
windows. Well, there's NdisWrapper, and it can be used to infer how to
write a network driver. Mingw includes some ddk headers, but I don't
know if anything else is still missing.

[1] http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/ServerSP1DDKEULA.mspx
[2] http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/
-- 
lfr
0/0

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 138 bytes --]

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http://lists.xensource.com/xen-devel

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 08:14:52PM +0100, Michael Paesold wrote:
> Andrew D. Ball wrote:
> >That would be sad, but is possible.  Just like I don't believe Linux
> >drivers should be allowed to be non-GPL, not allowing drivers for
> >Windows to be GPL makes sense, unless the kernel is organized with much
> >more isolation as more of a microkernel.
> >
> >Anyone's more informed thoughts on this would be appreciated.
> >
> >Peace.
> >Andrew
> >
> >On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 07:46 -0700, Ky Srinivasan wrote:
> >>I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be open-sourced. 
> >>I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.
> 
> I don't believe the problem is with Windows drivers, but with the Windows 
> Driver Development Kit. The DDK has a license incompatible with the GPL. I 
> think writing a driver without the kit would still be possible, although 
> difficult because it would require much more knowledge about the Windows 
> kernel.

Just do a chinese wall, clean room implementation then. One person has the
DDK and writes a spec for the driver. The second writes the actual driver
based on the spec - never looking at the DDK directly. A little more work
sure, but certainly doable.

Regards,
Dan.
-- 
|=- Red Hat, Engineering, Emerging Technologies, Boston.  +1 978 392 2496 -=|
|=-           Perl modules: http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/              -=|
|=-               Projects: http://freshmeat.net/~danielpb/               -=|
|=-  GnuPG: 7D3B9505   F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505  -=| 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Michael Paesold]

Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 08:14:52PM +0100, Michael Paesold wrote:
>> Andrew D. Ball wrote:
>>> That would be sad, but is possible.  Just like I don't believe Linux
>>> drivers should be allowed to be non-GPL, not allowing drivers for
>>> Windows to be GPL makes sense, unless the kernel is organized with much
>>> more isolation as more of a microkernel.
>>>
>>> Anyone's more informed thoughts on this would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Peace.
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 07:46 -0700, Ky Srinivasan wrote:
>>>> I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be open-sourced. 
>>>> I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.
>> I don't believe the problem is with Windows drivers, but with the Windows 
>> Driver Development Kit. The DDK has a license incompatible with the GPL. I 
>> think writing a driver without the kit would still be possible, although 
>> difficult because it would require much more knowledge about the Windows 
>> kernel.
> 
> Just do a chinese wall, clean room implementation then. One person has the
> DDK and writes a spec for the driver. The second writes the actual driver
> based on the spec - never looking at the DDK directly. A little more work
> sure, but certainly doable.

Yes, of course. Just find two guys to do the work. ;-)

Best Regards
Michael Paesold

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 09:46:00PM +0100, Michael Paesold wrote:
> Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> >On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 08:14:52PM +0100, Michael Paesold wrote:
> >>Andrew D. Ball wrote:
> >>>That would be sad, but is possible.  Just like I don't believe Linux
> >>>drivers should be allowed to be non-GPL, not allowing drivers for
> >>>Windows to be GPL makes sense, unless the kernel is organized with much
> >>>more isolation as more of a microkernel.
> >>>
> >>>Anyone's more informed thoughts on this would be appreciated.
> >>>
> >>>Peace.
> >>>Andrew
> >>>
> >>>On Wed, 2006-11-15 at 07:46 -0700, Ky Srinivasan wrote:
> >>>>I may be wrong here; but I think windows drivers cannot be 
> >>>>open-sourced. I recall reading that in windows DDK documentation.
> >>I don't believe the problem is with Windows drivers, but with the Windows 
> >>Driver Development Kit. The DDK has a license incompatible with the GPL. 
> >>I think writing a driver without the kit would still be possible, 
> >>although difficult because it would require much more knowledge about the 
> >>Windows kernel.
> >
> >Just do a chinese wall, clean room implementation then. One person has the
> >DDK and writes a spec for the driver. The second writes the actual driver
> >based on the spec - never looking at the DDK directly. A little more work
> >sure, but certainly doable.
> 
> Yes, of course. Just find two guys to do the work. ;-)

Well as has been pointed out before there are several sets of closed source
PV drivers around from XenSource, VirtualIron and other companies. So there
are clearly resources to write PV drivers for Windows, just no one who is yet
committed to open sourcing them for the benefit of the whole Xen userbase
/ community :-(

Regards,
Dan.
-- 
|=- Red Hat, Engineering, Emerging Technologies, Boston.  +1 978 392 2496 -=|
|=-           Perl modules: http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/              -=|
|=-               Projects: http://freshmeat.net/~danielpb/               -=|
|=-  GnuPG: 7D3B9505   F3C9 553F A1DA 4AC2 5648 23C1 B3DF F742 7D3B 9505  -=| 

Re: Is anyone working on HVM Paravirt drivers for windows?

[Nate Carlson]

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> Well as has been pointed out before there are several sets of closed 
> source PV drivers around from XenSource, VirtualIron and other 
> companies. So there are clearly resources to write PV drivers for 
> Windows, just no one who is yet committed to open sourcing them for the 
> benefit of the whole Xen userbase / community :-(

Or, heck, even if the drivers were just available for no cost.. doesn't 
necessarily have to be open source if there are licensing issues for that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars@natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------