question about tunable option

question about tunable option

[Franky Van Liedekerke]

Hi,

one of the tunable options is "delheaders", which by default removes
the headers "From " and "Return-Path:".
And here is my question: why "From " and not "From:"? There is no
"From " header in a mail, every header is followed by a colon ... so
for now this doesn't do anything (please correct me if I'm wrong).

While I'm at it, it would be nice to have a seperate option that
replaces the "From:" header with the one from the list, or now I do
this with the extra option "From:" in delheaders and
"From:" and "Reply-to:" in customheaders.

Franky

Re: question about tunable option

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Franky Van Liedekerke <liedekef@telenet.be> [Jul 24. 2007 20:57]:
> Hi,
> 
> one of the tunable options is "delheaders", which by default removes
> the headers "From " and "Return-Path:".
> And here is my question: why "From " and not "From:"? There is no
> "From " header in a mail, every header is followed by a colon ... so
> for now this doesn't do anything (please correct me if I'm wrong).

The tunable delheaders is for adding the headers you want to delete
apart from "From " and "Return-Path:", since they _have_ to be deleted
since they have to change now we send the mail on. Maybe you don't have
a "From " header in a single mail, but look in an mbox file.

So if you make a 'delheaders' file like this:

To:
Subject:

Then all To: and Subject: headers will be removed.

> While I'm at it, it would be nice to have a seperate option that
> replaces the "From:" header with the one from the list, or now I do
> this with the extra option "From:" in delheaders and
> "From:" and "Reply-to:" in customheaders.

Don't ever change From: to the listname. It's not the list that's
sending the mail--it's bad netiquette. Just strip Reply-To: and add a
Reply-To: header if you want such, but removing the From: really is very
bad style. You cannot see who's sending the mail.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: question about tunable option

[Charlie Brady]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007, Mads Martin Joergensen wrote:

> * Franky Van Liedekerke <liedekef@telenet.be> [Jul 24. 2007 20:57]:
>> Hi,
>>
>> one of the tunable options is "delheaders", which by default removes
>> the headers "From " and "Return-Path:".
>> And here is my question: why "From " and not "From:"? There is no
>> "From " header in a mail, every header is followed by a colon ... so
>> for now this doesn't do anything (please correct me if I'm wrong).
>
> The tunable delheaders is for adding the headers you want to delete
> apart from "From " and "Return-Path:", since they _have_ to be deleted
> since they have to change now we send the mail on. Maybe you don't have
> a "From " header in a single mail, but look in an mbox file.

Yes, messages in an mbox file do have a "From " header. But that is not 
relevant to what an MTA expects to see. 'From ' is not an RFC2821/2822 
message header - it's mbox specific metadata storage (and also a message 
separator in that format). mlmmj should never see a message with a line in 
the message header starting 'From '.

Return-Path: is a an RFC2821 message header, but it should only be added 
to messages for final delivery (as a permanent record of the envelope 
sender). It shouldn't be seen "on the wire" during SMTP. mlmmj might see 
it, but should delete it.

---
Charlie

Re: question about tunable option

[Franky Van Liedekerke]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:50:30 -0400 (EDT)
Charlie Brady <charlieb@budge.apana.org.au> wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007, Mads Martin Joergensen wrote:
> 
> > * Franky Van Liedekerke <liedekef@telenet.be> [Jul 24. 2007 20:57]:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> one of the tunable options is "delheaders", which by default
> >> removes the headers "From " and "Return-Path:".
> >> And here is my question: why "From " and not "From:"? There is no
> >> "From " header in a mail, every header is followed by a colon ...
> >> so for now this doesn't do anything (please correct me if I'm
> >> wrong).
> >
> > The tunable delheaders is for adding the headers you want to delete
> > apart from "From " and "Return-Path:", since they _have_ to be
> > deleted since they have to change now we send the mail on. Maybe
> > you don't have a "From " header in a single mail, but look in an
> > mbox file.
> 
> Yes, messages in an mbox file do have a "From " header. But that is
> not relevant to what an MTA expects to see. 'From ' is not an
> RFC2821/2822 message header - it's mbox specific metadata storage
> (and also a message separator in that format). mlmmj should never see
> a message with a line in the message header starting 'From '.

exactly my point. "From " just isn't a message header.

> Return-Path: is a an RFC2821 message header, but it should only be
> added to messages for final delivery (as a permanent record of the
> envelope sender). It shouldn't be seen "on the wire" during SMTP.
> mlmmj might see it, but should delete it.
> 
> ---
> Charlie
> 
> 

Re: question about tunable option

[Franky Van Liedekerke]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:17:55 +0200
Mads Martin Joergensen <mmj@mmj.dk> wrote:

> * Franky Van Liedekerke <liedekef@telenet.be> [Jul 24. 2007 20:57]:

...

> 
> > While I'm at it, it would be nice to have a seperate option that
> > replaces the "From:" header with the one from the list, or now I do
> > this with the extra option "From:" in delheaders and
> > "From:" and "Reply-to:" in customheaders.
> 
> Don't ever change From: to the listname. It's not the list that's
> sending the mail--it's bad netiquette. Just strip Reply-To: and add a
> Reply-To: header if you want such, but removing the From: really is
> very bad style. You cannot see who's sending the mail.
> 

I see this a bit different: sometimes you want people to be able to
send to a list, let others moderate it and then it gets send. But for
eg. a company newsletter, you want it always to appear to be coming
from a specific address. More general: you don't always want all
subscribers to know your addresses on the list when a mail gets send.


Franky

Re: question about tunable option

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Franky Van Liedekerke <liedekef@telenet.be> [Jul 24. 2007 23:06]:
> I see this a bit different: sometimes you want people to be able to
> send to a list, let others moderate it and then it gets send. But for
> eg. a company newsletter, you want it always to appear to be coming
> from a specific address. More general: you don't always want all
> subscribers to know your addresses on the list when a mail gets send.

Then use "From:" in delheaders, and add "From: listname@" in
customheaders. It's very possible :)

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: question about tunable option

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Charlie Brady <charlieb@budge.apana.org.au> [Jul 24. 2007 21:50]:
> >The tunable delheaders is for adding the headers you want to delete
> >apart from "From " and "Return-Path:", since they _have_ to be deleted
> >since they have to change now we send the mail on. Maybe you don't have
> >a "From " header in a single mail, but look in an mbox file.
> 
> Yes, messages in an mbox file do have a "From " header. But that is not 
> relevant to what an MTA expects to see. 'From ' is not an RFC2821/2822 
> message header - it's mbox specific metadata storage (and also a message 
> separator in that format). mlmmj should never see a message with a line in 
> the message header starting 'From '.

Point taken. But in case there is one--I want to delete it. I've seen
mails to lists with From in it.

> Return-Path: is a an RFC2821 message header, but it should only be added 
> to messages for final delivery (as a permanent record of the envelope 
> sender). It shouldn't be seen "on the wire" during SMTP. mlmmj might see 
> it, but should delete it.

And so we do.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: question about tunable option

[Charlie Brady]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Mads Martin Joergensen wrote:

>> Yes, messages in an mbox file do have a "From " header. But that is not
>> relevant to what an MTA expects to see. 'From ' is not an RFC2821/2822
>> message header - it's mbox specific metadata storage (and also a message
>> separator in that format). mlmmj should never see a message with a line in
>> the message header starting 'From '.
>
> Point taken. But in case there is one--I want to delete it. I've seen
> mails to lists with From in it.

Really? Really truly? If you see it, it almost certainly didn't arrive via 
SMTP.

Re: question about tunable option

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Charlie Brady <charlieb@budge.apana.org.au> [Jul 25. 2007 02:40]:
> >>Yes, messages in an mbox file do have a "From " header. But that is not
> >>relevant to what an MTA expects to see. 'From ' is not an RFC2821/2822
> >>message header - it's mbox specific metadata storage (and also a message
> >>separator in that format). mlmmj should never see a message with a line in
> >>the message header starting 'From '.
> >
> >Point taken. But in case there is one--I want to delete it. I've seen
> >mails to lists with From in it.
> 
> Really? Really truly? If you see it, it almost certainly didn't arrive via 
> SMTP.

Yeah, some broken mailer or such I assume. But rather get rid of it
anyway then.

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: question about tunable option

[Franky Van Liedekerke]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:09:04 +0200
Mads Martin Joergensen <mmj@mmj.dk> wrote:

> * Franky Van Liedekerke <liedekef@telenet.be> [Jul 24. 2007 23:06]:
> > I see this a bit different: sometimes you want people to be able to
> > send to a list, let others moderate it and then it gets send. But
> > for eg. a company newsletter, you want it always to appear to be
> > coming from a specific address. More general: you don't always want
> > all subscribers to know your addresses on the list when a mail gets
> > send.
> 
> Then use "From:" in delheaders, and add "From: listname@" in
> customheaders. It's very possible :)
> 
that's what I do now :) But since other listmanagers have this as an
option, I thought it would be nice for mlmmj to have it also.

Franky

Re: question about tunable option

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Franky Van Liedekerke <liedekef@telenet.be> [Jul 25. 2007 20:06]:
> > Then use "From:" in delheaders, and add "From: listname@" in
> > customheaders. It's very possible :)
>
> that's what I do now :) But since other listmanagers have this as an
> option, I thought it would be nice for mlmmj to have it also.

Patches are most welcome :)

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: question about tunable option

[Morten K. Poulsen]

Charlie Brady <charlieb@budge.apana.org.au> wrote:
>>> mlmmj should never see a message with a line in the
>>> message header starting 'From '.

Yes it will. Sendmail adds that line before piping the message
to an external program, such as mlmmj.

>> Point taken. But in case there is one--I want to delete it.
>> I've seen mails to lists with From in it.
> 
> Really? Really truly? If you see it, it almost certainly didn't
> arrive via SMTP.

It could have. See above.

Morten

-- 
Morten K. Poulsen <morten@afdelingp.dk>
http://www.afdelingp.dk/