From: Andrea Arcangeli <andrea@qumranet.com>
To: Robin Holt <holt@sgi.com>
Cc: Jack Steiner <steiner@sgi.com>,
Christoph Lameter <clameter@sgi.com>,
Nick Piggin <npiggin@suse.de>,
Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>,
kvm-devel@lists.sourceforge.net,
Kanoj Sarcar <kanojsarcar@yahoo.com>,
Roland Dreier <rdreier@cisco.com>,
Steve Wise <swise@opengridcomputing.com>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Avi Kivity <avi@qumranet.com>,
linux-mm@kvack.org, general@lists.openfabrics.org,
Hugh Dickins <hugh@veritas.com>,
akpm@linux-foundation.org, Rusty Russell <rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 01 of 12] Core of mmu notifiers
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:27:27 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20080427122727.GO9514@duo.random> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20080426131734.GB19717@sgi.com>
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 08:17:34AM -0500, Robin Holt wrote:
> the first four sets. The fifth is the oversubscription test which trips
> my xpmem bug. This is as good as the v12 runs from before.
Now that mmu-notifier-core #v14 seems finished and hopefully will
appear in 2.6.26 ;), I started exercising more the kvm-mmu-notifier
code with the full patchset applied and not only with
mmu-notifier-core. I soon found the full patchset has a swap deadlock
bug. Then I tried without using kvm (so with mmu notifier disarmed)
and I could still reproduce the crashes. After grabbing a few stack
traces I tracked it down to a bug in the i_mmap_lock->i_mmap_sem
conversion. If you oversubscription means swapping, you should retest
with this applied on #v14 i_mmap_sem patch as it would eventually
deadlock with all tasks allocating memory in D state without this. Now
the full patchset is as rock solid as with only mmu-notifier-core
applied. It's swapping 2G memhog on top of a 3G VM with 2G of ram for
the last hours without a problem. Everything is working great with KVM
at least.
Talking about post 2.6.26: the refcount with rcu in the anon-vma
conversion seems unnecessary and may explain part of the AIM slowdown
too. The rest looks ok and probably we should switch the code to a
compile-time decision between rwlock and rwsem (so obsoleting the
current spinlock).
diff --git a/mm/rmap.c b/mm/rmap.c
--- a/mm/rmap.c
+++ b/mm/rmap.c
@@ -1008,7 +1008,7 @@ static int try_to_unmap_file(struct page
list_for_each_entry(vma, &mapping->i_mmap_nonlinear, shared.vm_set.list)
vma->vm_private_data = NULL;
out:
- up_write(&mapping->i_mmap_sem);
+ up_read(&mapping->i_mmap_sem);
return ret;
}
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Andrea Arcangeli <andrea@qumranet.com>
To: Robin Holt <holt@sgi.com>
Cc: Nick Piggin <npiggin@suse.de>,
Steve Wise <swise@opengridcomputing.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>,
kvm-devel@lists.sourceforge.net,
Kanoj Sarcar <kanojsarcar@yahoo.com>,
Roland Dreier <rdreier@cisco.com>, Jack Steiner <steiner@sgi.com>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Avi Kivity <avi@qumranet.com>,
linux-mm@kvack.org, general@lists.openfabrics.org,
Hugh Dickins <hugh@veritas.com>,
akpm@linux-foundation.org, Christoph Lameter <clameter@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 01 of 12] Core of mmu notifiers
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:27:27 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20080427122727.GO9514@duo.random> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20080426131734.GB19717@sgi.com>
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 08:17:34AM -0500, Robin Holt wrote:
> the first four sets. The fifth is the oversubscription test which trips
> my xpmem bug. This is as good as the v12 runs from before.
Now that mmu-notifier-core #v14 seems finished and hopefully will
appear in 2.6.26 ;), I started exercising more the kvm-mmu-notifier
code with the full patchset applied and not only with
mmu-notifier-core. I soon found the full patchset has a swap deadlock
bug. Then I tried without using kvm (so with mmu notifier disarmed)
and I could still reproduce the crashes. After grabbing a few stack
traces I tracked it down to a bug in the i_mmap_lock->i_mmap_sem
conversion. If you oversubscription means swapping, you should retest
with this applied on #v14 i_mmap_sem patch as it would eventually
deadlock with all tasks allocating memory in D state without this. Now
the full patchset is as rock solid as with only mmu-notifier-core
applied. It's swapping 2G memhog on top of a 3G VM with 2G of ram for
the last hours without a problem. Everything is working great with KVM
at least.
Talking about post 2.6.26: the refcount with rcu in the anon-vma
conversion seems unnecessary and may explain part of the AIM slowdown
too. The rest looks ok and probably we should switch the code to a
compile-time decision between rwlock and rwsem (so obsoleting the
current spinlock).
diff --git a/mm/rmap.c b/mm/rmap.c
--- a/mm/rmap.c
+++ b/mm/rmap.c
@@ -1008,7 +1008,7 @@ static int try_to_unmap_file(struct page
list_for_each_entry(vma, &mapping->i_mmap_nonlinear, shared.vm_set.list)
vma->vm_private_data = NULL;
out:
- up_write(&mapping->i_mmap_sem);
+ up_read(&mapping->i_mmap_sem);
return ret;
}
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WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Andrea Arcangeli <andrea@qumranet.com>
To: Robin Holt <holt@sgi.com>
Cc: Jack Steiner <steiner@sgi.com>,
Christoph Lameter <clameter@sgi.com>,
Nick Piggin <npiggin@suse.de>,
Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>,
kvm-devel@lists.sourceforge.net,
Kanoj Sarcar <kanojsarcar@yahoo.com>,
Roland Dreier <rdreier@cisco.com>,
Steve Wise <swise@opengridcomputing.com>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Avi Kivity <avi@qumranet.com>,
linux-mm@kvack.org, general@lists.openfabrics.org,
Hugh Dickins <hugh@veritas.com>,
akpm@linux-foundation.org, Rusty Russell <rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 01 of 12] Core of mmu notifiers
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:27:27 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20080427122727.GO9514@duo.random> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20080426131734.GB19717@sgi.com>
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 08:17:34AM -0500, Robin Holt wrote:
> the first four sets. The fifth is the oversubscription test which trips
> my xpmem bug. This is as good as the v12 runs from before.
Now that mmu-notifier-core #v14 seems finished and hopefully will
appear in 2.6.26 ;), I started exercising more the kvm-mmu-notifier
code with the full patchset applied and not only with
mmu-notifier-core. I soon found the full patchset has a swap deadlock
bug. Then I tried without using kvm (so with mmu notifier disarmed)
and I could still reproduce the crashes. After grabbing a few stack
traces I tracked it down to a bug in the i_mmap_lock->i_mmap_sem
conversion. If you oversubscription means swapping, you should retest
with this applied on #v14 i_mmap_sem patch as it would eventually
deadlock with all tasks allocating memory in D state without this. Now
the full patchset is as rock solid as with only mmu-notifier-core
applied. It's swapping 2G memhog on top of a 3G VM with 2G of ram for
the last hours without a problem. Everything is working great with KVM
at least.
Talking about post 2.6.26: the refcount with rcu in the anon-vma
conversion seems unnecessary and may explain part of the AIM slowdown
too. The rest looks ok and probably we should switch the code to a
compile-time decision between rwlock and rwsem (so obsoleting the
current spinlock).
diff --git a/mm/rmap.c b/mm/rmap.c
--- a/mm/rmap.c
+++ b/mm/rmap.c
@@ -1008,7 +1008,7 @@ static int try_to_unmap_file(struct page
list_for_each_entry(vma, &mapping->i_mmap_nonlinear, shared.vm_set.list)
vma->vm_private_data = NULL;
out:
- up_write(&mapping->i_mmap_sem);
+ up_read(&mapping->i_mmap_sem);
return ret;
}
--
To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in
the body to majordomo@kvack.org. For more info on Linux MM,
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2008-04-27 12:27 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 249+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2008-04-22 13:51 [PATCH 00 of 12] mmu notifier #v13 Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 01 of 12] Core of mmu notifiers Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 14:56 ` Eric Dumazet
2008-04-22 14:56 ` Eric Dumazet
2008-04-22 15:15 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 15:15 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 15:15 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 15:24 ` Avi Kivity
2008-04-22 15:24 ` Avi Kivity
2008-04-22 15:37 ` Eric Dumazet
2008-04-22 15:37 ` Eric Dumazet
2008-04-22 16:46 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 16:46 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 16:46 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 20:19 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:19 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:19 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:31 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 20:31 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 20:31 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-22 22:35 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:35 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:35 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 23:07 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 23:07 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 23:07 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-23 0:28 ` Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 0:28 ` Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 0:28 ` [ofa-general] " Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 16:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 16:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 16:37 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:19 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:19 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:19 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:25 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:25 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:25 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 22:19 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 22:19 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 22:19 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 6:49 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 6:49 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 6:49 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 9:51 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-24 9:51 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-24 9:51 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-24 15:39 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 15:39 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 15:39 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 17:41 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 17:41 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-24 17:41 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-26 13:17 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-26 13:17 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-26 13:17 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-26 14:04 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-26 14:04 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-26 14:04 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-27 12:27 ` Andrea Arcangeli [this message]
2008-04-27 12:27 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-27 12:27 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-28 20:34 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-28 20:34 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-28 20:34 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-29 0:10 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 0:10 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 0:10 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 1:28 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-29 1:28 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-29 1:28 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-29 15:30 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 15:30 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 15:30 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 15:50 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-29 15:50 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-29 15:50 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-29 16:03 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 16:03 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 16:03 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-05-07 15:00 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-05-07 15:00 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-05-07 15:00 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 10:49 ` Hugh Dickins
2008-04-29 10:49 ` Hugh Dickins
2008-04-29 10:49 ` [ofa-general] " Hugh Dickins
2008-04-29 13:32 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-29 13:32 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 13:36 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 13:36 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 13:36 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 14:47 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-23 14:47 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-23 14:47 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-23 15:59 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 15:59 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 15:59 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:09 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:09 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:09 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:19 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:19 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:19 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:27 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:27 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:27 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:37 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:46 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:46 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:46 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:20 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:20 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:20 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 16:26 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 16:26 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 16:26 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 17:24 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 17:24 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:21 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:21 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:21 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:34 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:34 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:15 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:15 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:15 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 17:09 ` Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 17:09 ` Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 17:09 ` [ofa-general] " Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 17:45 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 17:45 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 17:45 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 02 of 12] Fix ia64 compilation failure because of common code include bug Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 20:22 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:22 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:22 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 22:43 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:43 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:43 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 23:07 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 23:07 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 23:07 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 03 of 12] get_task_mm should not succeed if mmput() is running and has reduced Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 20:23 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:23 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:23 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 22:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:37 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 23:13 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:13 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:13 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 04 of 12] Moves all mmu notifier methods outside the PT lock (first and not last Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 20:24 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:24 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:24 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 22:40 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:40 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:40 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 23:14 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:14 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:14 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 13:44 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 13:44 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 13:44 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 15:45 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-23 15:45 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-23 15:45 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-23 16:15 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 16:15 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 16:15 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 19:55 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-23 19:55 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-23 19:55 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-23 21:05 ` Avi Kivity
2008-04-23 21:05 ` Avi Kivity
2008-04-23 21:05 ` [ofa-general] " Avi Kivity
2008-04-23 18:02 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:02 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:02 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 18:16 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:16 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 18:16 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 05 of 12] Move the tlb flushing into free_pgtables. The conversion of the locks Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 20:25 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:25 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:25 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 06 of 12] Move the tlb flushing inside of unmap vmas. This saves us from passing Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 07 of 12] Add a function to rw_semaphores to check if there are any processes Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 08 of 12] The conversion to a rwsem allows notifier callbacks during rmap traversal Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 09 of 12] Convert the anon_vma spinlock to a rw semaphore. This allows concurrent Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 10 of 12] Convert mm_lock to use semaphores after i_mmap_lock and anon_vma_lock Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 20:26 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:26 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 22:54 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:54 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 22:54 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 23:19 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:19 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 23:19 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 11 of 12] XPMEM would have used sys_madvise() except that madvise_dontneed() Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` [PATCH 12 of 12] This patch adds a lock ordering rule to avoid a potential deadlock when Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 13:51 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 18:22 ` [PATCH 00 of 12] mmu notifier #v13 Robin Holt
2008-04-22 18:22 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 18:22 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 18:43 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 18:43 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 19:42 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 19:42 ` Robin Holt
2008-04-22 19:42 ` [ofa-general] " Robin Holt
2008-04-22 20:30 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:30 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:30 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 13:33 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 13:33 ` Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-23 13:33 ` [ofa-general] " Andrea Arcangeli
2008-04-22 20:28 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:28 ` Christoph Lameter
2008-04-22 20:28 ` [ofa-general] " Christoph Lameter
2008-04-23 0:31 ` Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 0:31 ` Jack Steiner
2008-04-23 0:31 ` [ofa-general] " Jack Steiner
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