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From: Peter Zijlstra <peterz-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto-kltTT9wpgjJwATOyAt5JVQ@public.gmane.org>
Cc: "linux-kernel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org"
	<linux-kernel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>,
	Kees Cook <keescook-F7+t8E8rja9g9hUCZPvPmw@public.gmane.org>,
	Andrea Arcangeli
	<aarcange-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>,
	Erik Bosman <ebn310-vHs5IaWfoDhmR6Xm/wNWPw@public.gmane.org>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa-YMNOUZJC4hwAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
	Michael Kerrisk-manpages
	<mtk.manpages-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>,
	Paul Mackerras <paulus-eUNUBHrolfbYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo
	<acme-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>,
	X86 ML <x86-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] x86,seccomp,prctl: Remove PR_TSC_SIGSEGV and seccomp TSC filtering
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2014 22:14:09 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20141003201409.GM10583@worktop.programming.kicks-ass.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALCETrUfCrvidOS6VvUpWFAcHUrPUs58zSQqGRC5UOTS=E37rw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2014 at 10:27:47AM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> [adding linux-api.  whoops.]
> 
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Andy Lutomirski <luto-kltTT9wpgjJwATOyAt5JVQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > PR_SET_TSC / PR_TSC_SIGSEGV is a security feature to prevent heavily
> > sandboxed programs from learning the time, presumably to avoid
> > disclosing the wall clock and to make timing attacks much harder to
> > exploit.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this feature is very insecure, for multiple reasons,
> > and has probably been insecure since before it was written.
> >
> > Weakness 1: Before Linux 3.16, the vvar page and the HPET (!) were
> > part of the kernel's fixmap, so any user process could read them.
> > The vvar page contains low-resolution timing information (with real
> > wall clock and frequency data), and the HPET can be used for high
> > precision timing.  Even in Linux 3.16, there clean way to disable
> > access to these pages.
> >
> > Weakness 2: On most configurations, most or all userspace processes
> > have unrestricted access to RDPMC, which is even better than RDTSC
> > for exploiting timing attacks.
> >
> > I would like to fix both of these issues.  I want to deny access to
> > RDPMC to processes that haven't asked for access via
> > perf_event_open.  I also want to implement real TSC blocking, which
> > will require some vdso enhancements

So the problem with the default deny is that its:
 1) pointless -- the attacker can do sys_perf_event_open() just fine;
 2) and expensive -- the people trying to measure performance get the
    penalty of the CR4 write.

So I would suggest a default on, but allow a disable for the seccomp
users, which might have also disabled the syscall. Note that is is
possible to disable RDPMC while still allowing the syscall.

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
Cc: "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Andrea Arcangeli <aarcange@redhat.com>,
	Erik Bosman <ebn310@few.vu.nl>, "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	Michael Kerrisk-manpages <mtk.manpages@gmail.com>,
	Paul Mackerras <paulus@samba.org>,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@kernel.org>,
	X86 ML <x86@kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] x86,seccomp,prctl: Remove PR_TSC_SIGSEGV and seccomp TSC filtering
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2014 22:14:09 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20141003201409.GM10583@worktop.programming.kicks-ass.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALCETrUfCrvidOS6VvUpWFAcHUrPUs58zSQqGRC5UOTS=E37rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2014 at 10:27:47AM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> [adding linux-api.  whoops.]
> 
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> wrote:
> > PR_SET_TSC / PR_TSC_SIGSEGV is a security feature to prevent heavily
> > sandboxed programs from learning the time, presumably to avoid
> > disclosing the wall clock and to make timing attacks much harder to
> > exploit.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this feature is very insecure, for multiple reasons,
> > and has probably been insecure since before it was written.
> >
> > Weakness 1: Before Linux 3.16, the vvar page and the HPET (!) were
> > part of the kernel's fixmap, so any user process could read them.
> > The vvar page contains low-resolution timing information (with real
> > wall clock and frequency data), and the HPET can be used for high
> > precision timing.  Even in Linux 3.16, there clean way to disable
> > access to these pages.
> >
> > Weakness 2: On most configurations, most or all userspace processes
> > have unrestricted access to RDPMC, which is even better than RDTSC
> > for exploiting timing attacks.
> >
> > I would like to fix both of these issues.  I want to deny access to
> > RDPMC to processes that haven't asked for access via
> > perf_event_open.  I also want to implement real TSC blocking, which
> > will require some vdso enhancements

So the problem with the default deny is that its:
 1) pointless -- the attacker can do sys_perf_event_open() just fine;
 2) and expensive -- the people trying to measure performance get the
    penalty of the CR4 write.

So I would suggest a default on, but allow a disable for the seccomp
users, which might have also disabled the syscall. Note that is is
possible to disable RDPMC while still allowing the syscall.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2014-10-03 20:14 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-10-03 17:18 [PATCH] x86,seccomp,prctl: Remove PR_TSC_SIGSEGV and seccomp TSC filtering Andy Lutomirski
     [not found] ` <fc0c2447cbc39257941c6b118388c024b719353a.1412356529.git.luto-kltTT9wpgjJwATOyAt5JVQ@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 17:27   ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 17:27     ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]     ` <CALCETrUfCrvidOS6VvUpWFAcHUrPUs58zSQqGRC5UOTS=E37rw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 20:14       ` Peter Zijlstra [this message]
2014-10-03 20:14         ` Peter Zijlstra
     [not found]         ` <20141003201409.GM10583-IIpfhp3q70z/8w/KjCw3T+5/BudmfyzbbVWyRVo5IupeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 20:22           ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 20:22             ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 20:27             ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]               ` <CALCETrWfrWpdMCAYySMAMGCHU3XRkNGmeMTECTE=PXQUfjGPZA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 20:44                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-03 20:44                   ` Peter Zijlstra
     [not found]                   ` <20141003204443.GP10583-IIpfhp3q70z/8w/KjCw3T+5/BudmfyzbbVWyRVo5IupeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 20:46                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 20:46                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 21:02                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-03 21:02                       ` Peter Zijlstra
     [not found]                       ` <20141003210213.GG6324-IIpfhp3q70z/8w/KjCw3T+5/BudmfyzbbVWyRVo5IupeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 21:04                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-03 21:04                           ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-03 21:04                         ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 21:04                           ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]                           ` <CALCETrW7OCuAiK31iRvXgXJfcf3FE4GKjpKQ0doWFyUpETzT9A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 21:12                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-03 21:12                               ` Peter Zijlstra
     [not found]                               ` <20141003211204.GQ10583-IIpfhp3q70z/8w/KjCw3T+5/BudmfyzbbVWyRVo5IupeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 21:15                                 ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 21:15                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-04  8:13                                   ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-06 16:44                                     ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]             ` <CALCETrVvFP66s5XOmSKaC8Vq73=uh11819HOOLkVTu7jJZotew-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 20:42               ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-03 20:42                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-10-03 20:53                 ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found] ` <20141003174141.GR2342@redhat.com>
     [not found]   ` <20141003174141.GR2342-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2014-10-03 17:59     ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 17:59       ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-10-03 20:15       ` Peter Zijlstra

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