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From: Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>
To: ath9k-devel@lists.ath9k.org
Subject: [ath9k-devel] [PATCH v2] RANDOM: ATH9K RNG delivers zero bits of entropy
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 23:44:41 -0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20160810234425.GG10523@thunk.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20160809140444.GB2013@io.lakedaemon.net>

On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 02:04:44PM +0000, Jason Cooper wrote:
> 
> iiuc, Ted, you're saying using the hw_random framework would be
> disasterous because despite most drivers having a default quality of 0,
> rngd assumes 1 bit of entropy for every bit read?

Sorry, what I was trying to say (but failed) was that bypassing the
hwrng framework and injecting entropy directly the entropy pool was
disatrous.

> Thankfully, most hw_random drivers don't set the quality.  So unless the
> user sets the default_quality param, it's zero.

The fact that this is "most" and not "all" does scare me a little.

As far as I'm concerned *all* hw_random drivers should set quality to
zero, since it should be up to the system administrator.  Perhaps the
one exception is virtio_rng, since if you don't trust the hypvervisor,
the security of the VM is hopeless.  That being said, I have seen
configurations of KVM which use:

	-object rng-random,filename=/dev/urandom,id=rng0 \
	-device virtio-rng-pci,rng=rng0

Which is somewhat non-ideal.  (Try running od -x /dev/random on such a
guest system....)

					- Ted

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>
To: Jason Cooper <jason@lakedaemon.net>
Cc: "Pan, Miaoqing" <miaoqing@qti.qualcomm.com>,
	Stephan Mueller <smueller@chronox.de>,
	"Sepehrdad, Pouyan" <pouyans@qti.qualcomm.com>,
	"herbert@gondor.apana.org.au" <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>,
	"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org" <linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org>,
	ath9k-devel <ath9k-devel@qca.qualcomm.com>,
	"linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org" <linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org>,
	"ath9k-devel@lists.ath9k.org" <ath9k-devel@lists.ath9k.org>,
	Kalle Valo <kvalo@codeaurora.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] RANDOM: ATH9K RNG delivers zero bits of entropy
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:44:25 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20160810234425.GG10523@thunk.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20160809140444.GB2013@io.lakedaemon.net>

On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 02:04:44PM +0000, Jason Cooper wrote:
> 
> iiuc, Ted, you're saying using the hw_random framework would be
> disasterous because despite most drivers having a default quality of 0,
> rngd assumes 1 bit of entropy for every bit read?

Sorry, what I was trying to say (but failed) was that bypassing the
hwrng framework and injecting entropy directly the entropy pool was
disatrous.

> Thankfully, most hw_random drivers don't set the quality.  So unless the
> user sets the default_quality param, it's zero.

The fact that this is "most" and not "all" does scare me a little.

As far as I'm concerned *all* hw_random drivers should set quality to
zero, since it should be up to the system administrator.  Perhaps the
one exception is virtio_rng, since if you don't trust the hypvervisor,
the security of the VM is hopeless.  That being said, I have seen
configurations of KVM which use:

	-object rng-random,filename=/dev/urandom,id=rng0 \
	-device virtio-rng-pci,rng=rng0

Which is somewhat non-ideal.  (Try running od -x /dev/random on such a
guest system....)

					- Ted

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>
To: Jason Cooper <jason@lakedaemon.net>
Cc: "Pan, Miaoqing" <miaoqing@qti.qualcomm.com>,
	Stephan Mueller <smueller@chronox.de>,
	"Sepehrdad, Pouyan" <pouyans@qti.qualcomm.com>,
	"herbert@gondor.apana.org.au" <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>,
	"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org" <linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org>,
	ath9k-devel <ath9k-devel@qca.qualcomm.com>,
	"linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org" <linux-wireless@vger.kernel.org>,
	"ath9k-devel@lists.ath9k.org" <ath9k-devel@venema.h4ckr.net>,
	Kalle Valo <kvalo@codeaurora.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] RANDOM: ATH9K RNG delivers zero bits of entropy
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:44:25 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20160810234425.GG10523@thunk.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20160809140444.GB2013@io.lakedaemon.net>

On Tue, Aug 09, 2016 at 02:04:44PM +0000, Jason Cooper wrote:
> 
> iiuc, Ted, you're saying using the hw_random framework would be
> disasterous because despite most drivers having a default quality of 0,
> rngd assumes 1 bit of entropy for every bit read?

Sorry, what I was trying to say (but failed) was that bypassing the
hwrng framework and injecting entropy directly the entropy pool was
disatrous.

> Thankfully, most hw_random drivers don't set the quality.  So unless the
> user sets the default_quality param, it's zero.

The fact that this is "most" and not "all" does scare me a little.

As far as I'm concerned *all* hw_random drivers should set quality to
zero, since it should be up to the system administrator.  Perhaps the
one exception is virtio_rng, since if you don't trust the hypvervisor,
the security of the VM is hopeless.  That being said, I have seen
configurations of KVM which use:

	-object rng-random,filename=/dev/urandom,id=rng0 \
	-device virtio-rng-pci,rng=rng0

Which is somewhat non-ideal.  (Try running od -x /dev/random on such a
guest system....)

					- Ted

  reply	other threads:[~2016-08-10 23:44 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 52+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2016-08-05 15:08 [RFC][PATCH] RANDOM: ATH9K RNG delivers zero bits of entropy Stephan Mueller
2016-08-05 15:18 ` [ath9k-devel] " Stephan Mueller
2016-08-05 15:08 ` Stephan Mueller
2016-08-06 19:45 ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-06 20:02   ` [ath9k-devel] " Jason Cooper
2016-08-06 19:45   ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-06 20:03   ` Stephan Mueller
2016-08-06 20:04     ` [ath9k-devel] " Stephan Mueller
2016-08-06 20:03     ` Stephan Mueller
2016-08-06 20:16     ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-06 20:32       ` [ath9k-devel] " Jason Cooper
2016-08-06 20:16       ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-07  9:36 ` [PATCH v2] " Stephan Mueller
2016-08-07  9:36   ` [ath9k-devel] " Stephan Mueller
2016-08-07  9:36   ` Stephan Mueller
2016-08-08  2:03   ` Pan, Miaoqing
2016-08-08  2:10     ` [ath9k-devel] " Pan, Miaoqing
2016-08-08  2:03     ` Pan, Miaoqing
2016-08-08  6:41     ` Stephan Mueller
2016-08-08  6:41       ` [ath9k-devel] " Stephan Mueller
2016-08-08  6:41       ` Stephan Mueller
2016-08-08 17:29       ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-08 17:46         ` [ath9k-devel] " Jason Cooper
2016-08-08 17:29         ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-08 22:04         ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-08 22:05           ` [ath9k-devel] " Jason Cooper
2016-08-08 22:04           ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-09  6:30         ` Pan, Miaoqing
2016-08-09  6:30           ` [ath9k-devel] " Pan, Miaoqing
2016-08-09  6:30           ` Pan, Miaoqing
2016-08-09 11:56           ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-08-09 12:14             ` [ath9k-devel] " Theodore Ts'o
2016-08-09 11:56             ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-08-09 14:04             ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-09 14:04               ` [ath9k-devel] " Jason Cooper
2016-08-09 14:04               ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-10 23:44               ` Theodore Ts'o [this message]
2016-08-10 23:44                 ` [ath9k-devel] " Theodore Ts'o
2016-08-10 23:44                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-08-14 18:11                 ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-14 18:11                   ` [ath9k-devel] " Jason Cooper
2016-08-14 18:11                   ` Jason Cooper
2016-08-15 11:01     ` [ath9k-devel] " Kalle Valo
2016-08-15 11:01       ` Kalle Valo
2016-08-15 11:01       ` Kalle Valo
2016-09-27 14:44   ` [ath9k-devel] [v2] " Kalle Valo
2016-09-27 14:44     ` Kalle Valo
2016-09-27 14:44     ` Kalle Valo
2016-09-27 14:44     ` Kalle Valo
2016-09-27 15:17     ` Stephan Mueller
2016-09-27 15:23       ` [ath9k-devel] " Stephan Mueller
2016-09-27 15:17       ` Stephan Mueller

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