early flushing of data

early flushing of data

[Hans Reiser]

I just thought that discussion of this might interest the list.

It is interesting to consider whether one should flush dirty nodes to 
disk with only a small delay after they are modified, or keep them in 
cache for a longer time.

A small delay has an advantage for the typical small benchmark, and for 
medium length tasks.  If there is poor utilization of the write cache, 
then the sooner one gets started on flushing something to disk, the 
 more megabytes the disk can write before the benchmark ends.

On the other hand, for a loaded server with a reasonably stable load 
with real users not benchmarks, the longer data stays in cache the more 
likely the write won't be needed at all.  One can argue that real users 
don't create stable loads.....

Your thoughts are welcome.

-- 
Hans

Re: early flushing of data

[Hendrik Visage]

On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 05:52:35PM +0400, Hans Reiser wrote:
> I just thought that discussion of this might interest the list.
> 
> It is interesting to consider whether one should flush dirty nodes to 
> disk with only a small delay after they are modified, or keep them in 
> cache for a longer time.
[snip]
> Your thoughts are welcome.

Being in love with buttons-an-dials, I'd vote for a configurable flush
setting.

I have the case were one email server (basically a hop in the queue) would do
well with the longer flushes as the data wouldn't be that long before it's
shipped out again (given no failure conditions), while I have others which
I'd like to have it to disk ASAP as it'll be taking awhile before it get's
moved along again.

Thus a configurable setting (would love/prefer a per mount setting ie.
one for my log mount, and the other for the email mounts etc.) would
be nice.

Re: early flushing of data

[Hans Reiser]

Hendrik Visage wrote:

>On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 05:52:35PM +0400, Hans Reiser wrote:
>  
>
>>I just thought that discussion of this might interest the list.
>>
>>It is interesting to consider whether one should flush dirty nodes to 
>>disk with only a small delay after they are modified, or keep them in 
>>cache for a longer time.
>>    
>>
>[snip]
>  
>
>>Your thoughts are welcome.
>>    
>>
>
>Being in love with buttons-an-dials, I'd vote for a configurable flush
>setting.
>
>I have the case were one email server (basically a hop in the queue) would do
>well with the longer flushes as the data wouldn't be that long before it's
>shipped out again (given no failure conditions), while I have others which
>I'd like to have it to disk ASAP as it'll be taking awhile before it get's
>moved along again.
>
>Thus a configurable setting (would love/prefer a per mount setting ie.
>one for my log mount, and the other for the email mounts etc.) would
>be nice.
>
>
>
>  
>
Yes, but what should the default be (remember that 97% of users or more 
won't change the default)?

-- 
Hans

Re: early flushing of data

[Hendrik Visage]

On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 06:14:51PM +0400, Hans Reiser wrote:
> Hendrik Visage wrote:
> >On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 05:52:35PM +0400, Hans Reiser wrote:
> >>
> >>It is interesting to consider whether one should flush dirty nodes to 
> >>disk with only a small delay after they are modified, or keep them in 
> >>cache for a longer time.
> >>   
> >Thus a configurable setting (would love/prefer a per mount setting ie.
> >one for my log mount, and the other for the email mounts etc.) would
> >be nice.
> >
> Yes, but what should the default be (remember that 97% of users or more 
> won't change the default)?

To this I'd ask: What's the settings in XFS and JFS?
 Seeing they have "experience" behind them, it'll be a good starting point.

Re: Opportunistic early flushing of data

[Xuan Baldauf]

Hans Reiser wrote:

> I just thought that discussion of this might interest the list.
>
> It is interesting to consider whether one should flush dirty nodes to
> disk with only a small delay after they are modified, or keep them in
> cache for a longer time.
>
> A small delay has an advantage for the typical small benchmark, and for
> medium length tasks.  If there is poor utilization of the write cache,
> then the sooner one gets started on flushing something to disk, the
>  more megabytes the disk can write before the benchmark ends.
>
> On the other hand, for a loaded server with a reasonably stable load
> with real users not benchmarks, the longer data stays in cache the more
> likely the write won't be needed at all.  One can argue that real users
> don't create stable loads.....
>
> Your thoughts are welcome.
>
> --
> Hans

What about opportunistic early flushing? If the disk is not accessed, we
may flush without using someone elses resources. This cannot be implemented
for all cases (because during the write, someone else may want to flush
immediately), but there may be heuristics (like "we flush opportunistically
if the disk has not been used for the last 100ms") which approximate to the
optimal case. The more the disk is busy, the more flush should be delayed.

This way, we use the advantage of early flush (early commit for database
servers, etc.) with the advantages of late flush (less IO traffic). If
there is low IO traffic, we would not need to lower it, we can do early
flush. If there is high IO traffic, early flush would even rise it but late
flush would lower it.

It is important that the heuristics really depend on usage patterns of the
disk, not only of the filesystem. There might be a system with a swap
partition and a file system partition with heavy memory load and some disk
load. The resulting heavy swap would be slowed down if the filesystem did
early flush, and the filesystem would think that it is okay to do early
flush due to the less IO throughput (which in turn is result of slowed
swap...).

Xuân.

Re: Opportunistic early flushing of data

[Hans Reiser]

Xuan Baldauf wrote:

>Hans Reiser wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I just thought that discussion of this might interest the list.
>>
>>It is interesting to consider whether one should flush dirty nodes to
>>disk with only a small delay after they are modified, or keep them in
>>cache for a longer time.
>>
>>A small delay has an advantage for the typical small benchmark, and for
>>medium length tasks.  If there is poor utilization of the write cache,
>>then the sooner one gets started on flushing something to disk, the
>> more megabytes the disk can write before the benchmark ends.
>>
>>On the other hand, for a loaded server with a reasonably stable load
>>with real users not benchmarks, the longer data stays in cache the more
>>likely the write won't be needed at all.  One can argue that real users
>>don't create stable loads.....
>>
>>Your thoughts are welcome.
>>
>>--
>>Hans
>>    
>>
>
>What about opportunistic early flushing? If the disk is not accessed, we
>may flush without using someone elses resources. This cannot be implemented
>for all cases (because during the write, someone else may want to flush
>immediately), but there may be heuristics (like "we flush opportunistically
>if the disk has not been used for the last 100ms") which approximate to the
>optimal case. The more the disk is busy, the more flush should be delayed.
>
>This way, we use the advantage of early flush (early commit for database
>servers, etc.) with the advantages of late flush (less IO traffic). If
>there is low IO traffic, we would not need to lower it, we can do early
>flush. If there is high IO traffic, early flush would even rise it but late
>flush would lower it.
>
>It is important that the heuristics really depend on usage patterns of the
>disk, not only of the filesystem. There might be a system with a swap
>partition and a file system partition with heavy memory load and some disk
>load. The resulting heavy swap would be slowed down if the filesystem did
>early flush, and the filesystem would think that it is okay to do early
>flush due to the less IO throughput (which in turn is result of slowed
>swap...).
>
>Xuân.
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
Xuan, I think you have the right approach here.  I think Daniel Phillips 
maybe outlined something somewhat similar some time ago on lkml, let's 
ask him.:)

-- 
Hans