Re: system backups with zip disks

Re: system backups with zip disks

[Scott Taylor]

Hi Jude,

At 10:18 AM 1/19/2003 -0500, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>It appears doing system backups with zip disks is using inappropriate
>hardware for a system administration task.

Good point.

>The parallel 250mb zip drive I have can handle at most 10 volumes then has 
>to be turned off to cool down for at least a half hour.

I really doubt that drive was made for more than copying a few files to it 
at a time. :)

>Unless there's something I don't understand about tar, it looks as if zip 
>and zipsplit will have to be used to write volumes.  I can write 6 volumes 
>then turn the drive off and let it cool down then come back and write 
>another six volumes once zipsplit has split them off the main archive.

That's sounds like a lot of work.  Have you ever tried to restore from this 
backup?

I would suggest that you only back up those files that are most important, 
like your database or home directory or what ever needs it most.  It's not 
necessary to back up the entire drive(s) every time, but if you feel it is, 
invest in a tape drive and BRU or some such.

Careful if you do buy a tape drive, check the price of media.  If you spend 
$200US on a tape drive, you may be spending over $75 on each tape.  higher 
end drives, like DAT drive, around $500-1200, the tapes are inexpensive, 
$10-20.

Good luck

Scott.

Re: system backups with zip disks

[terry white]

on "1-19-2003" "Scott Taylor" writ:

: Careful if you do buy a tape drive, check the price of media.  If you spend
: $200US on a tape drive, you may be spending over $75 on each tape.  higher
: end drives, like DAT drive, around $500-1200, the tapes are inexpensive,
: $10-20.

... a research on the technology is a must.  DAT may, or may not be, what
you require.  check out the vendor's websites for recording methodology,
and what that means.

    i use 20GB media, and it runs aroung $30 a pop, and as i recall,
price a function of capacity.  i seriously recommend "IMATION" tapes.
their replacement policy is great.

    on the other hand, i would discourage the use of HP drives.  this a
matter of customer service when something goes 'wrong' ...


--
... i'm a man, but i can change,
    if i have to , i guess ...

Re: system backups with zip disks

[Jude DaShiell]

Hmmm, I had only used hp drives in the past.  I may end up checking out
jazz drives for performance hopefully they'll run longer without
overheating.  Actually, one of those could probably backup this system
with about 6 volumes and room to spare on the last volume.  I'll check
prices for disks tomorrow too.  If none of that looks good, I can if
necessary cclear this disk and put redhat 8.0 on it and have it up and
talking probably pretty quickly.  That system will find cdroms and cdrw
drives using cdrecord out of the box.  tar multi-volume mode works only
one way.  No interruptions in operation since the append operation always
starts out on volume 2 no matter what volume was in the drive earlier.

-- 
Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

Re: system backups with zip disks

[Scott Taylor]

At 10:47 PM 1/19/03, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>Hmmm, I had only used hp drives in the past.  I may end up checking out
>jazz drives for performance hopefully they'll run longer without
>overheating.  Actually, one of those could probably backup this system
>with about 6 volumes and room to spare on the last volume.

I can't understand why you would bother with those types of drives, at all, 
when even a CDBurner would probably do just fine unless you need more than 
700MB to backup.  You still haven't told us what you are trying to backup; 
volumes could be anything.

Scott.

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Re: system backups with zip disks

[Jude DaShiell]

I was trying to backup the entire contents of the slackware 8.0 system.
I didn't figure to have to do this all that regularly but even with cdrw
drives that would have used 6 disks by now.  As things stand, everything
new I've downloaded I've got backed up.  After that, I'll probably end up
backing up /home and /etc directory trees and leave it at that.

-- 
Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

Re: system backups with zip disks

[Jeff Largent]

Backing up and entire system is a complete waste of time.
The install media is the backup for your programs.
Back up your configs and data, The progs themseleves can
be reinstalled faster than you read all of that off of tape.

1.  Set up a consistant install across all systems if possible.
	We actually use 2 one for users on for developers.
2.  I havn't used slackware in awhile so I can't remember what
     there package tool uses for a list of packages to install.
     With redhat you have kickstart, define all you packages
     there.
3.  Restore configs, and data.

This should only take you less than an hour and your system will
be exactly like it was on the date of your last backup.



Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I was trying to backup the entire contents of the slackware 8.0 system.
> I didn't figure to have to do this all that regularly but even with cdrw
> drives that would have used 6 disks by now.  As things stand, everything
> new I've downloaded I've got backed up.  After that, I'll probably end up
> backing up /home and /etc directory trees and leave it at that.
> 

-- 
Jeff Largent                   ImageLinks, Inc.
Sr System Admin                Melbourne, Fl 32935
(321) 253-0011                 fax:(321) 253-5559

Re: system backups with zip disks

[terry white]

on "1-20-2003" "Jeff Largent" writ:

: The install media is the backup for your programs.

... from a security standpoint, that approach demands duplication
of effort.  for example, bind ...


-- 
... i'm a man, but i can change,
    if i have to , i guess ...

Re: system backups with zip disks

[Jeff Largent]

This makes no sense, the duplication of effort is backing
up bind.  If you are worried about having the latest patched
version of bind on the system mirror the updates site.
You could still install the version on the install media then
run pkgtool(I think thats slackware tool) and upgrade to the
latest faster than reading everything from tape.
If the duplication you are refering to is the having to upgrade
the patched pakages big deal, It's faster.

named.conf is a config file so back it up.
The zone files would be a backuped up.

install, upgrade, reload of few meg of configs from tape, et 1 hour
stand around and swap out 100M Zip disks to restore system, et all day.

If you have a 100 tape LTO library, sure back it all up.  But remember
were talking someone using a 100M zip disk.



terry white wrote:
> on "1-20-2003" "Jeff Largent" writ:
> 
> : The install media is the backup for your programs.
> 
> ... from a security standpoint, that approach demands duplication
> of effort.  for example, bind ...
> 
> 

-- 
Jeff Largent                   ImageLinks, Inc.
Sr System Admin                Melbourne, Fl 32935
(321) 253-0011                 fax:(321) 253-5559

Re: system backups with zip disks

[Scott Taylor]

At 01:28 PM 1/20/03, Jeff Largent wrote:
>This makes no sense,

<snip useless whining about irrelevant examples like bind et al>

>If you have a 100 tape LTO library, sure back it all up.  But remember
>were talking someone using a 100M zip disk.

I thought we were talking about Jude not using zip disks, as a backup 
system, because they are a waste of time.

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Re: system backups with zip disks

[Scott Taylor]

At 12:15 PM 1/20/03, Jeff Largent wrote:
>Backing up and entire system is a complete waste of time.

I have to disagree with you there Jeff.  I see at least 2-4 updates on 
software packages every week, sure a lot of them are for the same package 
numerous times.

On any *nix system, it's a good idea to backup the entire file system at 
least once a week; who wants to go do all that work again.  And all good 
SysAdmins have a recovery tool, such as BRU, that they can fit onto one 
diskette, boot from it (or a second diskette, or even CD today) and restore 
the entire tape, then a few tweaks and you are back up again.

>The install media is the backup for your programs.
>Back up your configs and data, The progs themseleves can
>be reinstalled faster than you read all of that off of tape.

<snip>

>This should only take you less than an hour and your system will
>be exactly like it was on the date of your last backup.

I doubt any safe, secure,  production system could be restored in even a 
couple of hours just by having all the configs in place.

Jude has the right idea, just the wrong material.

>Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>I was trying to backup the entire contents of the slackware 8.0 system.
>>I didn't figure to have to do this all that regularly but even with cdrw
>>drives that would have used 6 disks by now.  As things stand, everything
>>new I've downloaded I've got backed up.  After that, I'll probably end up
>>backing up /home and /etc directory trees and leave it at that.

BTW Jude,
Don't forget to back up your databases, web pages and other oddball configs 
you might find in /var, /usr/libexec, /usr/share et al.  Never assume all 
configs are where they are supposed to be (/etc), unless you put them there 
yourself. :)

Scott.

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Re: system backups with zip disks

[Jude DaShiell]

The way I have the system backup script set now it should backup /boot
/etc /home /root /var.  Beyond that the new software installed to make the
system more useable is archived as soon as it gets installed.

-- 
Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

Re: system backups with zip disks

[Toby Fisher]

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On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Scott Taylor wrote:

> I would suggest that you only back up those files that are most important,
> like your database or home directory or what ever needs it most.  It's not
> necessary to back up the entire drive(s) every time, but if you feel it is,
> invest in a tape drive and BRU or some such.
>
> Careful if you do buy a tape drive, check the price of media.  If you spend
> $200US on a tape drive, you may be spending over $75 on each tape.  higher
> end drives, like DAT drive, around $500-1200, the tapes are inexpensive,
> $10-20.

Baring in mind these prices above, wouldn't a cd burner, or even a dvd
burner, be a cheaper option?  I mean, how much is an ide cd burner these
days?  And, you can pick up the media for something like $30-40 for 100
disks, or a bit more for cdrw media.  Failing that, you could spend $50 on
a fire-wire card and get a hard drive to attach to it, at 400 mb transfer
your back-ups will be quick and you can store the drive somewhere safe
when you're done.

HTH

- -- 
Toby Fisher	Email: toby@tjfisher.co.uk
Tel.: +44(0)1480 417272	Mobile: +44(0)7974 363239
ICQ: #61744808
   Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
   See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

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Re: system backups with zip disks

[Scott Taylor]

At 06:09 PM 1/19/03, terry white wrote:
>on "1-19-2003" "Scott Taylor" writ:
>
>: Careful if you do buy a tape drive, check the price of media.  If you spend
>: $200US on a tape drive, you may be spending over $75 on each tape.  higher
>: end drives, like DAT drive, around $500-1200, the tapes are inexpensive,
>: $10-20.
>
>... a research on the technology is a must.  DAT may, or may not be, what
>you require.  check out the vendor's websites for recording methodology,
>and what that means.
>
>     i use 20GB media, and it runs aroung $30 a pop, and as i recall,
>price a function of capacity.

Is that like DDS-4?

>  i seriously recommend "IMATION" tapes.

A very solid recommendation.

>their replacement policy is great.
>
>     on the other hand, i would discourage the use of HP drives.  this a
>matter of customer service when something goes 'wrong' ...

Another good recommendation. ;)

Also if you have more than 1 server, make sure you buy the drives from all 
the same manufacturers, I've ran into problems trying to restore a tape 
written in a Seagate drive using an HP drive.  Although, never had that 
problem when I switch to IBM.  Now they are all IBM.

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system backups with zip disks

[Jude DaShiell]

It appears doing system backups with zip disks is using inappropriate
hardware for a system administration task.  The parallel 250mb zip drive I
have can handle at most 10 volumes then has to be turned off to cool down
for at least a half hour.  Unless there's something I don't understand
about tar, it looks as if zip and zipsplit will have to be used to write
volumes.  I can write 6 volumes then turn the drive off and let it cool
down then come back and write another six volumes once zipsplit has split
them off the main archive.

-- 
Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>