Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Hans Reiser]

I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin 
whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and 
config info I believe).  Anybody know where it does this, and whether I 
need to be worried about it stepping on something?

-- 
Hans

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Anders Widman]

> I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin 
> whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and 
> config info I believe).  Anybody know where it does this, and whether I 
> need to be worried about it stepping on something?


   It  should be inside the partition table or the mbr. Should be easy to
   verify  this  though  by  zeroing out the disk, connect to the promise
   controller  and  the  run  a  check  on  the disk and see where it has
   changed?

   //Anders



--------
PGP public key: https://tnonline.net/secure/pgp_key.txt

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[bscott]

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, at 8:24pm, reiser@namesys.com wrote:
> I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin
> whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and
> config info I believe).

  Some RAID controllers write information to the disk, but never expose it
to the host OS.  For example, say the RAID controller writes information to
the last block in the disk.  The disk it then presents to the host OS will
be one block shorter.  I don't know if your Promise "RAID controller" is 
one of those.

  I put "RAID controller" in quotes because most Promise "RAID controllers"  
are simply a more-or-less standard IDE interface, with RAID done in software
on the host (the software either comes from the BIOS, or the device driver).  
You're likely better off using your OS's native software RAID in that event.

  Also, AFAIK, support for Promise RAID controllers under Linux (I assume
you're running Linux) is poor at best.  You way want to avoid using it at
all.

-- 
Ben Scott <bscott@ntisys.com>
| The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do  |
| not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. |
| All information is provided without warranty of any kind.              |

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Hans Reiser]

bscott@ntisys.com wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, at 8:24pm, reiser@namesys.com wrote:
>  
>
>>I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin
>>whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and
>>config info I believe).
>>    
>>
>
>  Some RAID controllers write information to the disk, but never expose it
>to the host OS.  For example, say the RAID controller writes information to
>the last block in the disk.  The disk it then presents to the host OS will
>be one block shorter.  I don't know if your Promise "RAID controller" is 
>one of those.
>
>  I put "RAID controller" in quotes because most Promise "RAID controllers"  
>are simply a more-or-less standard IDE interface, with RAID done in software
>on the host (the software either comes from the BIOS, or the device driver).  
>You're likely better off using your OS's native software RAID in that event.
>
>  Also, AFAIK, support for Promise RAID controllers under Linux (I assume
>you're running Linux) is poor at best.  You way want to avoid using it at
>all.
>
>  
>
Ok, I'll not use it then.  I was thinking of mirroring, but I was 
assuming it was all done in hardware....

-- 
Hans

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Anders Widman]

> bscott@ntisys.com wrote:

>>On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, at 8:24pm, reiser@namesys.com wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin
>>>whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and
>>>config info I believe).
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>  Some RAID controllers write information to the disk, but never expose it
>>to the host OS.  For example, say the RAID controller writes information to
>>the last block in the disk.  The disk it then presents to the host OS will
>>be one block shorter.  I don't know if your Promise "RAID controller" is 
>>one of those.
>>
>>  I put "RAID controller" in quotes because most Promise "RAID controllers"  
>>are simply a more-or-less standard IDE interface, with RAID done in software
>>on the host (the software either comes from the BIOS, or the device driver).  
>>You're likely better off using your OS's native software RAID in that event.
>>
>>  Also, AFAIK, support for Promise RAID controllers under Linux (I assume
>>you're running Linux) is poor at best.  You way want to avoid using it at
>>all.
>>
>>  
>>
> Ok, I'll not use it then.  I was thinking of mirroring, but I was 
> assuming it was all done in hardware....

 You  can  still  use  the  controller,  but  I would do the mirroring
 natively in Linux than depend on the Promise BIOS to do it.

   



--------
PGP public key: https://tnonline.net/secure/pgp_key.txt

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Hans Reiser]

Anders Widman wrote:

>>bscott@ntisys.com wrote:
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>>On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, at 8:24pm, reiser@namesys.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin
>>>>whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and
>>>>config info I believe).
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>> Some RAID controllers write information to the disk, but never expose it
>>>to the host OS.  For example, say the RAID controller writes information to
>>>the last block in the disk.  The disk it then presents to the host OS will
>>>be one block shorter.  I don't know if your Promise "RAID controller" is 
>>>one of those.
>>>
>>> I put "RAID controller" in quotes because most Promise "RAID controllers"  
>>>are simply a more-or-less standard IDE interface, with RAID done in software
>>>on the host (the software either comes from the BIOS, or the device driver).  
>>>You're likely better off using your OS's native software RAID in that event.
>>>
>>> Also, AFAIK, support for Promise RAID controllers under Linux (I assume
>>>you're running Linux) is poor at best.  You way want to avoid using it at
>>>all.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Ok, I'll not use it then.  I was thinking of mirroring, but I was 
>>assuming it was all done in hardware....
>>    
>>
>
> You  can  still  use  the  controller,  but  I would do the mirroring
> natively in Linux than depend on the Promise BIOS to do it.
>
>   
>
>
>
>--------
>PGP public key: https://tnonline.net/secure/pgp_key.txt
>
>
>
>  
>
It is for my Mom, I want both windows and Linux, and I was hoping the 
whole drive would get mirrored by the hardware.  It is okay though, I 
will have mom use dd once a week to do it, and this will protect from 
viruses better than a synchronous mirror.

-- 
Hans

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Anders Widman]

>>>>>I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin
>>>>>whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and
>>>>>config info I believe).

<snip>

> It is for my Mom, I want both windows and Linux, and I was hoping the 
> whole drive would get mirrored by the hardware.  It is okay though, I 
> will have mom use dd once a week to do it, and this will protect from 
> viruses better than a synchronous mirror.

The  BIOS  is  handling mirroring, which is supported good in Windows,
and as "experimental" in Linux.

//Anders

--------
PGP public key: https://tnonline.net/secure/pgp_key.txt

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[bscott]

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, at 8:54pm, reiser@namesys.com wrote:
> It is for my Mom, I want both windows and Linux, and I was hoping the
> whole drive would get mirrored by the hardware.

  Not by hardware, no.  But you could configure a mirror in the Promise 
BIOS, and it would give you an effective mirror of two drives, regardless of 
OS or partitioning.  You would need to have drivers for all your OSes, of 
course.  This isn't "hardware RAID", but it still might be useful.

  That being said, I've also had bad luck with many of these cheap "fake 
RAID controllers" doing things like corrupting the contents of the drive.  
While I'm not saying your particular model of Promise controller will have 
that problem, I've been burned often enough that I won't touch them.

  If you really want a hardware RAID controller for ATA drives, go with a
3Ware Escalade, or an LSI Logic MegaRAID I4.  Both have fully supported, GPL
drivers in the kernel.  I've also heard that the high-end Promise
controllers (the ones that have an actual co-processor onboard) are decent,
although I have no experience with them myself.

> It is okay though, I will have mom use dd once a week to do it, and this
> will protect from viruses better than a synchronous mirror.

  rsync might be better than a simple 'dd'.  Although I don't know if rsync
would get messed up by the semantics of an MS-DOS filesystem.

-- 
Ben Scott <bscott@ntisys.com>
| The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do  |
| not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. |
| All information is provided without warranty of any kind.              |

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[bscott]

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, at 6:51pm, andewid@tnonline.net wrote:
> You can still use the controller, but I would do the mirroring natively in
> Linux than depend on the Promise BIOS to do it.

  Yah, that too.  My motherboard at home has an HPT "fake RAID" chipset on
it.  I've never used it for RAID, but for a time I had a single hard drive
attached to one of the channels, and it worked just fine as a plain old IDE
interface.

-- 
Ben Scott <bscott@ntisys.com>
| The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do  |
| not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. |
| All information is provided without warranty of any kind.              |

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Soeren Sonnenburg]

On Wed, 2003-04-16 at 18:24, Hans Reiser wrote:
> I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin 
> whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and 
> config info I believe).  Anybody know where it does this, and whether I 
> need to be worried about it stepping on something?

Yes, I just threw 2 promise controllers away because the drivers are
damn instable (at least for kernels 2.4.19- 21pre7).

If you don't want to risk unnecessary crashes buy a controller that is
*really* supported like the highpointech/cmd/3ware/via ones.

Soeren.

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Hendrik Visage]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 11:26:06PM +0200, Soeren Sonnenburg wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-04-16 at 18:24, Hans Reiser wrote:
> > I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin 
> > whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and 
> > config info I believe).  Anybody know where it does this, and whether I 
> > need to be worried about it stepping on something?

It's saving it's mirror information in the last track of each of the drives
in the "RAID" setup.

> Yes, I just threw 2 promise controllers away because the drivers are
> damn instable (at least for kernels 2.4.19- 21pre7).

Which ones?
I'm using a Asus A7V133 with the promise 20265, and so far working for me..
(Though, I've also dropped the use of the quasi promise raid in favor of md)

Hendrik

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Anders Widman]

> Yes, I just threw 2 promise controllers away because the drivers are
> damn instable (at least for kernels 2.4.19- 21pre7).

> If you don't want to risk unnecessary crashes buy a controller that is
> *really* supported like the highpointech/cmd/3ware/via ones.

  Just a note on this. I have found that Promise controllers (at least
  the  Ultra  100  Tx2  ones)  have  a nasty incapability problem with
  Maxtor  drives.  This cause me to have all sorts of random problems.
  Once  I  moved  the  Maxtor  drives to the VIA controller everything
  runs fine so far.

  Now I am only running Seagate and IBM on the Promise controllers and
  it  is  fine. The new Maxtor (which uses Quantum labeled chips) seem
  to work good too.

  //Anders

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Hans Reiser]

Anders Widman wrote:

>>>>>>I just bought this motherboard with a promise raid controller builtin
>>>>>>whose manual mentions that it writes information to disk (volume and
>>>>>>config info I believe).
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>
><snip>
>
>  
>
>>It is for my Mom, I want both windows and Linux, and I was hoping the 
>>whole drive would get mirrored by the hardware.  It is okay though, I 
>>will have mom use dd once a week to do it, and this will protect from 
>>viruses better than a synchronous mirror.
>>    
>>
>
>The  BIOS  is  handling mirroring, which is supported good in Windows,
>and as "experimental" in Linux.
>
>//Anders
>
>--------
>PGP public key: https://tnonline.net/secure/pgp_key.txt
>
>
>
>  
>
So it sounds like I should just not use mirroring and life will be fine?

Their product seems to be a bit cheesy, and more than a bit lacking in 
good documentation.  It claims that one of my drives is part of a 1+0 
array.  How can one drive be part of a mirrored array?  Or does that 
mean that it is the mirror of one of the other drives?

-- 
Hans

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Hans Reiser]

bscott@ntisys.com wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, at 8:54pm, reiser@namesys.com wrote:
>  
>
>>It is for my Mom, I want both windows and Linux, and I was hoping the
>>whole drive would get mirrored by the hardware.
>>    
>>
>
>  Not by hardware, no.  But you could configure a mirror in the Promise 
>BIOS, and it would give you an effective mirror of two drives, regardless of 
>OS or partitioning.  You would need to have drivers for all your OSes, of 
>course.  This isn't "hardware RAID", but it still might be useful.
>
This is total crap and deceitful marketing, in my book.  Nowhere do they 
say it is software raid....

>
>  That being said, I've also had bad luck with many of these cheap "fake 
>RAID controllers" doing things like corrupting the contents of the drive.  
>While I'm not saying your particular model of Promise controller will have 
>that problem, I've been burned often enough that I won't touch them.
>
>  If you really want a hardware RAID controller for ATA drives, go with a
>3Ware Escalade, or an LSI Logic MegaRAID I4.  Both have fully supported, GPL
>drivers in the kernel.  I've also heard that the high-end Promise
>controllers (the ones that have an actual co-processor onboard) are decent,
>although I have no experience with them myself.
>
I didn't intend to buy it, it is built into the motherboard, sigh....  
the motherboard can support only 3 ide devices, so I would say it is IDE 
lacking as a result of the promise device....

I didn't really pay attention to the ide device capacity when buying it.....

oh well, not the end of the world.

>
>  
>
>>It is okay though, I will have mom use dd once a week to do it, and this
>>will protect from viruses better than a synchronous mirror.
>>    
>>
>
>  rsync might be better than a simple 'dd'.  Although I don't know if rsync
>would get messed up by the semantics of an MS-DOS filesystem.
>
>  
>


-- 
Hans

Re: Promise raid controller writes to disk, anybody know where?

[Soeren Sonnenburg]

On Wed, 2003-04-16 at 23:38, Anders Widman wrote:
> > Yes, I just threw 2 promise controllers away because the drivers are
> > damn instable (at least for kernels 2.4.19- 21pre7).
> 
> > If you don't want to risk unnecessary crashes buy a controller that is
> > *really* supported like the highpointech/cmd/3ware/via ones.
> 
>   Just a note on this. I have found that Promise controllers (at least
>   the  Ultra  100  Tx2  ones)  have  a nasty incapability problem with
>   Maxtor  drives.  This cause me to have all sorts of random problems.
>   Once  I  moved  the  Maxtor  drives to the VIA controller everything
>   runs fine so far.

Well I never had random problems with these controllers (ultra tx2).
They just did crash when I was causing to much io. (raid5 on linux
software raid here, rebuilding the raid and running bonnie at the same
time was enough. all I could do is go down and disable DMA or go to
UDMA0 not sure whether that was enough). 

>   Now I am only running Seagate and IBM on the Promise controllers and
>   it  is  fine. The new Maxtor (which uses Quantum labeled chips) seem
>   to work good too.

they crash at least with maxtor and wdc drives. no no it is the
controller this time.

Soeren.