RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Pering, Trevor]

Ok, then it sounds like we (me and the lawyers and you) are all in
agreement -- what it comes down to is the source of the *.h files.  If
they come from the kernel (which wouldn't make sense for BlueZ), then
things would be ok.  However, trying to use BlueZ user-level *.h files
with not-GPL would not be allowed.  (I'm just reiterating this for the
benefit of clarity and consensus).

Cheers,
	Trevor

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Marcel
Holtmann
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:48 PM
To: bluez-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

Hi Trevor,

> As for the non-GPL use of the kernel, I was referring to: (from
> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING)
>=20
> "NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
>  services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal
use
>  of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived
work".
>  Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
>  Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
>  kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it."
>=20
> But I'm not sure if by "disagree" you meant disagree with the
> interpretation, or the intent behind it...  I have been advised by our
> lawyers that this does allow simple use of *.h files to include kernel
> constants and things like that -- but would not extend to user-land
> libraries.

from my interpretation this is only ok if the include files are under
LGPL. This is normally done by having extra include files for the
userspace. Remember that we don't include kernel headers from userspace
programs. If you include *.h files that are under GPL then your program
becomes GPL, because you include GPL code. In the case of BlueZ you
can't include the kernel header files, because they are not compatible.
So you need to use the *.h files from bluez-libs and these are GPL. This
means you have to rewrite them from scratch and from my view this is not
possible, because you will create derived work. However I am not a
lawyer and if you think (or your lawyer do) you are safe then go ahead,
but done blame me afterwards that I haven't warned you.

And btw don't get me wrong. I will try to make the BlueZ library LGPL as
soon as I got the permission from Qualcomm. Without it we don't really
need to think or talk about it.

Regards

Marcel




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Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Brad Midgley]

Trevor

I usually try to stay out of this but a technical solution is to write a 
GPL shim that links with -lbluetooth and that you use via APIs across 
which the GPL is not required to hold. Again, talk to your lawyer.

Brad

Pering, Trevor wrote:
> Ok, then it sounds like we (me and the lawyers and you) are all in
> agreement -- what it comes down to is the source of the *.h files.  If
> they come from the kernel (which wouldn't make sense for BlueZ), then
> things would be ok.  However, trying to use BlueZ user-level *.h files
> with not-GPL would not be allowed.  (I'm just reiterating this for the
> benefit of clarity and consensus).
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Trevor
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net
> [mailto:bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Marcel
> Holtmann
> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:48 PM
> To: bluez-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code
> 
> Hi Trevor,
> 
> 
>>As for the non-GPL use of the kernel, I was referring to: (from
>>http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING)
>>
>>"NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
>> services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal
> 
> use
> 
>> of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived
> 
> work".
> 
>> Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
>> Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
>> kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it."
>>
>>But I'm not sure if by "disagree" you meant disagree with the
>>interpretation, or the intent behind it...  I have been advised by our
>>lawyers that this does allow simple use of *.h files to include kernel
>>constants and things like that -- but would not extend to user-land
>>libraries.
> 
> 
> from my interpretation this is only ok if the include files are under
> LGPL. This is normally done by having extra include files for the
> userspace. Remember that we don't include kernel headers from userspace
> programs. If you include *.h files that are under GPL then your program
> becomes GPL, because you include GPL code. In the case of BlueZ you
> can't include the kernel header files, because they are not compatible.
> So you need to use the *.h files from bluez-libs and these are GPL. This
> means you have to rewrite them from scratch and from my view this is not
> possible, because you will create derived work. However I am not a
> lawyer and if you think (or your lawyer do) you are safe then go ahead,
> but done blame me afterwards that I haven't warned you.
> 
> And btw don't get me wrong. I will try to make the BlueZ library LGPL as
> soon as I got the permission from Qualcomm. Without it we don't really
> need to think or talk about it.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Marcel
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Marco Trudel]

Brad Midgley wrote:
> Trevor
> 
> I usually try to stay out of this

why? You might be helpful... Don't hesitate, share your knowledge.

 > but a technical solution is to write a
> GPL shim that links with -lbluetooth and that you use via APIs across 
> which the GPL is not required to hold. Again, talk to your lawyer.

can you explain that further? as I understand it:
write an own library that includes the bluez .h files and links agains 
-lbluetooth
-> so the own library has to be gpl too
include the own library (.h file(s)) in the not gpl program
but because the own library is gpl and you include it again, you program 
still has to be gpl, right?
the only difference is that you haven't to link against -lbluetooth. but 
the header files are gpl too.

sorry if I got this wrong.


regards
Marco


> Brad
> 
> Pering, Trevor wrote:
> 
>> Ok, then it sounds like we (me and the lawyers and you) are all in
>> agreement -- what it comes down to is the source of the *.h files.  If
>> they come from the kernel (which wouldn't make sense for BlueZ), then
>> things would be ok.  However, trying to use BlueZ user-level *.h files
>> with not-GPL would not be allowed.  (I'm just reiterating this for the
>> benefit of clarity and consensus).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>     Trevor
>>
>>  
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net
>> [mailto:bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Marcel
>> Holtmann
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:48 PM
>> To: bluez-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> Subject: RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code
>>
>> Hi Trevor,
>>
>>
>>> As for the non-GPL use of the kernel, I was referring to: (from
>>> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING)
>>>
>>> "NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
>>> services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal
>>
>>
>> use
>>
>>> of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived
>>
>>
>> work".
>>
>>> Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
>>> Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
>>> kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it."
>>>
>>> But I'm not sure if by "disagree" you meant disagree with the
>>> interpretation, or the intent behind it...  I have been advised by our
>>> lawyers that this does allow simple use of *.h files to include kernel
>>> constants and things like that -- but would not extend to user-land
>>> libraries.
>>
>>
>>
>> from my interpretation this is only ok if the include files are under
>> LGPL. This is normally done by having extra include files for the
>> userspace. Remember that we don't include kernel headers from userspace
>> programs. If you include *.h files that are under GPL then your program
>> becomes GPL, because you include GPL code. In the case of BlueZ you
>> can't include the kernel header files, because they are not compatible.
>> So you need to use the *.h files from bluez-libs and these are GPL. This
>> means you have to rewrite them from scratch and from my view this is not
>> possible, because you will create derived work. However I am not a
>> lawyer and if you think (or your lawyer do) you are safe then go ahead,
>> but done blame me afterwards that I haven't warned you.
>>
>> And btw don't get me wrong. I will try to make the BlueZ library LGPL as
>> soon as I got the permission from Qualcomm. Without it we don't really
>> need to think or talk about it.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Marcel
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Marcel Holtmann]

Hi Marco,

>  > but a technical solution is to write a
> > GPL shim that links with -lbluetooth and that you use via APIs across 
> > which the GPL is not required to hold. Again, talk to your lawyer.
> 
> can you explain that further? as I understand it:
> write an own library that includes the bluez .h files and links agains 
> -lbluetooth
> -> so the own library has to be gpl too
> include the own library (.h file(s)) in the not gpl program
> but because the own library is gpl and you include it again, you program 
> still has to be gpl, right?
> the only difference is that you haven't to link against -lbluetooth. but 
> the header files are gpl too.

you go through a self defined Unix Socket API or D-Bus API. Then you
only have to make the shim layer (the daemon) available under GPL.

Regards

Marcel




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RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Marcel Holtmann]

Hi Trevor,

> Ok, then it sounds like we (me and the lawyers and you) are all in
> agreement -- what it comes down to is the source of the *.h files.  If
> they come from the kernel (which wouldn't make sense for BlueZ), then
> things would be ok.  However, trying to use BlueZ user-level *.h files
> with not-GPL would not be allowed.  (I'm just reiterating this for the
> benefit of clarity and consensus).

for the kernel header files this is not clear to me, because Linus only
stated the exception for system calls and not any actual code. I have
seen people argumenting into both directions and since the BlueZ kernel
include files are no use for userspace programs, I won't take any of the
positions.

For the *.h files from bluez-libs the GPL is the current state and thus
any program using them will be GPL.

Regards

Marcel




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RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Pering, Trevor]

Max (do you read this list still?) -- is there any update to plans to
release the BlueZ *libraries* under LGPL? Or, is there an intended way
for non-GPL programs to interface with BlueZ?

As for the non-GPL use of the kernel, I was referring to: (from
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING)

"NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
 services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use
 of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work".
 Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
 Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
 kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it."

But I'm not sure if by "disagree" you meant disagree with the
interpretation, or the intent behind it...  I have been advised by our
lawyers that this does allow simple use of *.h files to include kernel
constants and things like that -- but would not extend to user-land
libraries.

Cheers,
	Trevor




-----Original Message-----
From: bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Marcel
Holtmann
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:45 PM
To: bluez-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

Hi Trevor,

> I have a question about linking non-GPL code to BlueZ.  This is
> very much along the lines of the previous conversation at=20
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.bluez.devel/2444 -- the quick
> summary of which is:=20
> =20
> Marcel: Date: 2004-06-28 14:48:48 GMT: "For the BlueZ library and the
> utilities we can talk about it. Some time ago people asked for a LGPL
> version of the library and actually I tend to agree with that. However
> this can't be decided by me alone, because part of the code is
copyright
> by Qualcomm and also by Maxim Krasnyansky himself. For the utilities I
> don't see any need for a different license. I believe in the GPL and
> from my view releasing the Linux Bluetooth library under LGPL is the
> only step I wanna make forward to allow closed source products based
on
> BlueZ."
>=20
> Is this still the current status of GPL/LGPL for the BlueZ libraries
> (libbluetooth.so) -- or has there been an update (I haven't found
> anything more recent on the mailing list about this).

nothing has changed at the moment. Ask Max for an update of changing the
BlueZ library from GPL to LGPL.

> What is the recommended way to write a non-GPL application on top of
> BlueZ, or is this not currently allowed...? My understanding is that
it
> is OK to use the linux kernel syscall interface from non-GPL code, but
> that this would not extend to libbluetooth.so...

Actually I disagree with the non-GPL use of the syscall interface, but I
am not lawyer. From my understanding all the bluetooth/*.h include files
are GPL and you need them for your application. You can't replace them
without ending up in derived work.

Regards

Marcel




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RE: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Marcel Holtmann]

Hi Trevor,

> As for the non-GPL use of the kernel, I was referring to: (from
> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING)
> 
> "NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
>  services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use
>  of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work".
>  Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
>  Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
>  kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it."
> 
> But I'm not sure if by "disagree" you meant disagree with the
> interpretation, or the intent behind it...  I have been advised by our
> lawyers that this does allow simple use of *.h files to include kernel
> constants and things like that -- but would not extend to user-land
> libraries.

from my interpretation this is only ok if the include files are under
LGPL. This is normally done by having extra include files for the
userspace. Remember that we don't include kernel headers from userspace
programs. If you include *.h files that are under GPL then your program
becomes GPL, because you include GPL code. In the case of BlueZ you
can't include the kernel header files, because they are not compatible.
So you need to use the *.h files from bluez-libs and these are GPL. This
means you have to rewrite them from scratch and from my view this is not
possible, because you will create derived work. However I am not a
lawyer and if you think (or your lawyer do) you are safe then go ahead,
but done blame me afterwards that I haven't warned you.

And btw don't get me wrong. I will try to make the BlueZ library LGPL as
soon as I got the permission from Qualcomm. Without it we don't really
need to think or talk about it.

Regards

Marcel




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Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Marco Trudel]

if he doesn't answer, you might reach him over his company:
maxk@qualcomm.com

regards
Marco


Pering, Trevor wrote:
> Max (do you read this list still?) -- is there any update to plans to
> release the BlueZ *libraries* under LGPL? Or, is there an intended way
> for non-GPL programs to interface with BlueZ?
> 
> As for the non-GPL use of the kernel, I was referring to: (from
> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING)
> 
> "NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
>  services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use
>  of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work".
>  Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
>  Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
>  kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it."
> 
> But I'm not sure if by "disagree" you meant disagree with the
> interpretation, or the intent behind it...  I have been advised by our
> lawyers that this does allow simple use of *.h files to include kernel
> constants and things like that -- but would not extend to user-land
> libraries.
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Trevor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net
> [mailto:bluez-users-admin@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Marcel
> Holtmann
> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:45 PM
> To: bluez-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code
> 
> Hi Trevor,
> 
> 
>>I have a question about linking non-GPL code to BlueZ.  This is
>>very much along the lines of the previous conversation at 
>>http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.bluez.devel/2444 -- the quick
>>summary of which is: 
>> 
>>Marcel: Date: 2004-06-28 14:48:48 GMT: "For the BlueZ library and the
>>utilities we can talk about it. Some time ago people asked for a LGPL
>>version of the library and actually I tend to agree with that. However
>>this can't be decided by me alone, because part of the code is
> 
> copyright
> 
>>by Qualcomm and also by Maxim Krasnyansky himself. For the utilities I
>>don't see any need for a different license. I believe in the GPL and
>>from my view releasing the Linux Bluetooth library under LGPL is the
>>only step I wanna make forward to allow closed source products based
> 
> on
> 
>>BlueZ."
>>
>>Is this still the current status of GPL/LGPL for the BlueZ libraries
>>(libbluetooth.so) -- or has there been an update (I haven't found
>>anything more recent on the mailing list about this).
> 
> 
> nothing has changed at the moment. Ask Max for an update of changing the
> BlueZ library from GPL to LGPL.
> 
> 
>>What is the recommended way to write a non-GPL application on top of
>>BlueZ, or is this not currently allowed...? My understanding is that
> 
> it
> 
>>is OK to use the linux kernel syscall interface from non-GPL code, but
>>that this would not extend to libbluetooth.so...
> 
> 
> Actually I disagree with the non-GPL use of the syscall interface, but I
> am not lawyer. From my understanding all the bluetooth/*.h include files
> are GPL and you need them for your application. You can't replace them
> without ending up in derived work.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Marcel
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Pering, Trevor]

Hello -- I have a question about linking non-GPL code to BlueZ.  This is
very much along the lines of the previous conversation at=20
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.bluez.devel/2444 -- the quick
summary of which is:=20
=20
Marcel: Date: 2004-06-28 14:48:48 GMT: "For the BlueZ library and the
utilities we can talk about it. Some time ago people asked for a LGPL
version of the library and actually I tend to agree with that. However
this can't be decided by me alone, because part of the code is copyright
by Qualcomm and also by Maxim Krasnyansky himself. For the utilities I
don't see any need for a different license. I believe in the GPL and
from my view releasing the Linux Bluetooth library under LGPL is the
only step I wanna make forward to allow closed source products based on
BlueZ."

Is this still the current status of GPL/LGPL for the BlueZ libraries
(libbluetooth.so) -- or has there been an update (I haven't found
anything more recent on the mailing list about this).

What is the recommended way to write a non-GPL application on top of
BlueZ, or is this not currently allowed...? My understanding is that it
is OK to use the linux kernel syscall interface from non-GPL code, but
that this would not extend to libbluetooth.so...

Cheers,
	Trevor





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Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Marcel Holtmann]

Hi Trevor,

> I have a question about linking non-GPL code to BlueZ.  This is
> very much along the lines of the previous conversation at 
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.bluez.devel/2444 -- the quick
> summary of which is: 
>  
> Marcel: Date: 2004-06-28 14:48:48 GMT: "For the BlueZ library and the
> utilities we can talk about it. Some time ago people asked for a LGPL
> version of the library and actually I tend to agree with that. However
> this can't be decided by me alone, because part of the code is copyright
> by Qualcomm and also by Maxim Krasnyansky himself. For the utilities I
> don't see any need for a different license. I believe in the GPL and
> from my view releasing the Linux Bluetooth library under LGPL is the
> only step I wanna make forward to allow closed source products based on
> BlueZ."
> 
> Is this still the current status of GPL/LGPL for the BlueZ libraries
> (libbluetooth.so) -- or has there been an update (I haven't found
> anything more recent on the mailing list about this).

nothing has changed at the moment. Ask Max for an update of changing the
BlueZ library from GPL to LGPL.

> What is the recommended way to write a non-GPL application on top of
> BlueZ, or is this not currently allowed...? My understanding is that it
> is OK to use the linux kernel syscall interface from non-GPL code, but
> that this would not extend to libbluetooth.so...

Actually I disagree with the non-GPL use of the syscall interface, but I
am not lawyer. From my understanding all the bluetooth/*.h include files
are GPL and you need them for your application. You can't replace them
without ending up in derived work.

Regards

Marcel




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Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Fredy P]

El mi=E9, 01-06-2005 a las 23:44 +0200, Marcel Holtmann escribi=F3:
> Hi Trevor,
>=20
> > I have a question about linking non-GPL code to BlueZ.  This is
> > very much along the lines of the previous conversation at=20
> > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.bluez.devel/2444 -- the quick
> > summary of which is:=20
> > =20
> > Marcel: Date: 2004-06-28 14:48:48 GMT: "For the BlueZ library and the
> > utilities we can talk about it. Some time ago people asked for a LGPL
> > version of the library and actually I tend to agree with that. However
> > this can't be decided by me alone, because part of the code is copyrigh=
t
> > by Qualcomm and also by Maxim Krasnyansky himself. For the utilities I
> > don't see any need for a different license. I believe in the GPL and
> > from my view releasing the Linux Bluetooth library under LGPL is the
> > only step I wanna make forward to allow closed source products based on
> > BlueZ."
> >=20
> > Is this still the current status of GPL/LGPL for the BlueZ libraries
> > (libbluetooth.so) -- or has there been an update (I haven't found
> > anything more recent on the mailing list about this).
>=20
> nothing has changed at the moment. Ask Max for an update of changing the
> BlueZ library from GPL to LGPL.

For the free software and open source interest is not good idea change
GPL to LGPL, can read this:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html
>=20
> > What is the recommended way to write a non-GPL application on top of
> > BlueZ, or is this not currently allowed...? My understanding is that it
> > is OK to use the linux kernel syscall interface from non-GPL code, but
> > that this would not extend to libbluetooth.so...
>=20
> Actually I disagree with the non-GPL use of the syscall interface, but I
> am not lawyer. From my understanding all the bluetooth/*.h include files
> are GPL and you need them for your application. You can't replace them
> without ending up in derived work.
>=20
> Regards
>=20
> Marcel
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
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Re: [Bluez-users] Linking to BlueZ from non-GPL code

[Nils Faerber]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Fredy P wrote:
> El mié, 01-06-2005 a las 23:44 +0200, Marcel Holtmann escribió:
[...]
>>>Is this still the current status of GPL/LGPL for the BlueZ libraries
>>>(libbluetooth.so) -- or has there been an update (I haven't found
>>>anything more recent on the mailing list about this).
>>nothing has changed at the moment. Ask Max for an update of changing the
>>BlueZ library from GPL to LGPL.
> For the free software and open source interest is not good idea change
> GPL to LGPL, can read this:
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html

This debate is almost as old as the free software movement or the
introduction of the LGPL respectively.

The question is what you intend to achieve by putting sourcecode under
the GPL or LGPL.

Concerning libbluetooth I would strongly and also urgently propose to
put it under LGPL for several reasons.
First of all is that libbluetooth is part of BlueZ which is the official
Bluetooth stack for Linux. It should not limit the use of Linux in any
way. The limiting factor here is that GPL on a library renders all
programs that use it into GPL. For commercial software vendors this is a
no-go.

Yes, in an ideal world we would not care much but our world is far from
being ideal and currently I would strongly prefer wide use of Linux than
limiting the use.

LGPL on the library itself assures that the lib will remain free and
that changes to it will be put back into it. For a library there is no
need to be GPL. It simply limits its use which is not good.

So please yes, try to get hold of Max and ask for his permission...


Regards
  nils faerber

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