multiple bounces being delivered?

multiple bounces being delivered?

[Nate Beaty]

i imagine this is something simple, but i'm not sure i understand why
it's happening.. i've had a few people over the last year tell me they
keep getting bounce messages (10+) to an address that's on an mlmmj
mailing list i run.

looking at the .lastmsg for the address, i see qmail autoresponding:

(headers chopped by me..)

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at 66.33.34.80.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<xxx@xxx.com>:
AUTORESPOND: Junk mail received.

--- Enclosed are the original headers of the message.

--117609251766.33.34.8027541632
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Return-Path: <topshelf-newsletter-retailers+bounces-6-xxx=xxx.com@lists.clixel.com>
Received: (qmail 17602 invoked by uid 399); 9 Apr 2007 00:21:52 -0400
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on

(Body supressed)

any suggestions? somehow mlmmj thinks a message is not delivered when
it is (people are telling me they get all 10+ of these msgs) -- how
could this be possible?

i'm using mlmmj 1.2.13 on an ubuntu dapper box. (i've compiled 1.2.14,
just haven't copied it over yet..)

thanks in advance,
nate.

Re: multiple bounces being delivered?

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Nate Beaty <natebeaty@gmail.com> [Apr 11. 2007 23:59]:
> any suggestions? somehow mlmmj thinks a message is not delivered when
> it is (people are telling me they get all 10+ of these msgs) -- how
> could this be possible?
> 
> i'm using mlmmj 1.2.13 on an ubuntu dapper box. (i've compiled 1.2.14,
> just haven't copied it over yet..)

Well, their qmail box is replying to the Return-Path: address, which is
what mlmmj uses for bounces. If it did the same and the list list was
run by ezmlm it would also look like a bounce.

Is there a return code?

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: multiple bounces being delivered?

[Mads Martin Joergensen]

* Nate Beaty <natebeaty@gmail.com> [Apr 11. 2007 23:59]:
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at 66.33.34.80.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

This even suggests that it didn't get delivered.

What kind of setup is this anyway?

-- 
Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk
"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic
 and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"
                                 -- A. P. J.

Re: multiple bounces being delivered?

[Nate Beaty]

On 4/11/07, Mads Martin Joergensen <mmj@mmj.dk> wrote:
> What kind of setup is this anyway?

ubuntu dapper (basically debian edgy i believe), exim 4.6 (using
jakob's excellent readme.exim), mlmmj 1.2.13 -- & also spamassassin &
clamav. i haven't touched my box's email setup for some time, it's
just been working great except for this specific problem every once in
a while.

> Is there a return code?

i must need caffeine.. how do i find this? is it in the headers? or
maybe the exim log? i feel weird posting the whole message, but i can
email it to you directly if that would help.

thanks!
nate

Re: multiple bounces being delivered?

[Jakob Hirsch]

Quoting Nate Beaty:

> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at 66.33.34.80.

This is the remote mta yours sent the list message to?

> <xxx@xxx.com>:
> AUTORESPOND: Junk mail received.
...
> any suggestions? somehow mlmmj thinks a message is not delivered when
> it is (people are telling me they get all 10+ of these msgs) -- how
> could this be possible?

Looks to me like some broken spam filter setup. For some reason it
thinks the list message is spam, and sends back a bounce message (which
is, in general, very bad, because it would produce collateral spam on
real spam), but still delivers the message to the user's mailbox.

Re: multiple bounces being delivered?

[Morten K. Poulsen]

Hi,

Jakob Hirsch <jh@plonk.de> wrote:
> Quoting Nate Beaty:
...
>> <xxx@xxx.com>:
>> AUTORESPOND: Junk mail received.
> ...
>> any suggestions? somehow mlmmj thinks a message is not delivered when
>> it is (people are telling me they get all 10+ of these msgs) -- how
>> could this be possible?
> 
> Looks to me like some broken spam filter setup. For some reason it
> thinks the list message is spam, and sends back a bounce message

I think you are right. One of the subscribers has a broken spam filter.
When a mail is flagged by this subscribers filter, it sends back a
(broken) bounce mail. Bounce mails must be delivered to the envelope
from adress. If it does, mlmmj gets the bounce. I see two possible error
scenarios:

1) The broken spam filter sends its "bounce" to the address in the mail's
From: header. In that way, the original sender receives the "bounce"
message - and mlmmj doesn't know about it.

2) The broken spam filter sends its "bounce" to the address in the mail's
envelope from, but without the extra part - i.e. list@domain instead of
list+bounce-11223344@domain - making it impossible for mlmmj to tell
that it is a bounce.

Could you send the headers?

Morten

-- 
Morten K. Poulsen <morten@afdelingp.dk>
http://www.afdelingp.dk/

Re: multiple bounces being delivered?

[Nate Beaty]

> 1) The broken spam filter sends its "bounce" to the address in the mail's
> From: header. In that way, the original sender receives the "bounce"
> message - and mlmmj doesn't know about it.
>
> 2) The broken spam filter sends its "bounce" to the address in the mail's
> envelope from, but without the extra part - i.e. list@domain instead of
> list+bounce-11223344@domain - making it impossible for mlmmj to tell
> that it is a bounce.
>
> Could you send the headers?

Unfortunately, I don't have the original email. However, this has
happened a few times before on our list (out of 20k subscribers, using
mlmmj for the last year or two), so I assume it will happen again.
When it does, I will attempt to get the original email w/ headers.

Thanks for your help guys,
Nate.