Re: [LARTC] Dead Gateway Detection & BGP

[Grant Taylor <gtaylor@riverviewtech.net>]

On 8/29/2007 8:50 PM, Rangi Biddle wrote:
> Firstly I can appreciate where Grant is coming from.  There are a 
> number of things that aren't so commonly done with Linux that the 
> community currently doesn't provide answers for and obviously there 
> are people out there that know how to do things that the community 
> cannot answer.  The issue I have with what Grant wants to provide 
> (re: $1/min rate via email) is that I have no control over the amount 
> of time that is spent writing an email or seeking answers to my 
> questions meaning I could spend $100's if not $1,000's of dollars 
> getting a partial answer (not implying that that would be the case), 
> but is a point of concern.  I myself have been an active supporter of 
> OSS and have contributed code and answers to not so common questions 
> or have gone out of my way to assist others.  Unfortunately, in this 
> instance, it is I that am seeking help and am now being asked to pay 
> for an answer to my question.  Sounds somewhat like visiting a 
> shrink.  In some instances, it doesn't quite surprise me that Linux 
> isn't more mainstream and this being a primary example of it.  If 
> more of us knew how to do <insert task here> I believe Linux would 
> become more mainstream because there are more of us available to 
> actively support Linux systems which, as most of us are aware of, is 
> the primary concern of most that purchase a Linux solution "Who is 
> going to look after it if you're not here or available?".

With regards to the amount of time spent on the email(s), I had 
indicated that I expected to spend between 30 minutes and 180 minutes 
total helping.  Usually it takes me about 15 minutes or so to draft a 
detailed email and re-reading / editing it before I send it.  Indeed 
there are a lot of short one liners that take all of 30 seconds to send 
too.  So, I don't think that there is concern with spending any ware 
near $1,000's of dollars.  Even after all was said and done, I would 
probably negotiate with you to make sure that what I initially proposed 
to you (or any one else for that matter) was mutually fair, if any thing 
erroring on the low side to make sure that things were fair.

I'm sorry for even remotely making you feel as if you have to pay for an 
answer to your question(s), I was not trying to imply that at all.  At 
the time that I had wrote that I was dealing with a particularly 
difficult problem that I had just spent numerous hours of my personal / 
company time (distinctions are *VERY* gray seeing as how my job is the 
same thing as my hobby).  I would have happily payed what I considered 
to be a nominal rate to be able to talk with someone about what I was 
wanting to accomplish rather than working all those hours.

Look for a follow up email to your original post with more of an answer 
to your question shortly.  At least it will contain what I would us to 
achieve what you are wanting to do, in so far as the logical blocks to 
your problem, not specific configuration instructions, which I leave up 
to an exercise for an educated person (being any one that can read 
readme files and think logically about networking and run a compiler). 
With contrast if I was doing this for a client as I had initially 
offered I would most likely end up giving much closer to step by step 
instructions including how to configure what interface and what MAC 
address to put where rather than leaving it up to said educated individual.

> Bottom line is this, my boss refuses to pay someone that neither he 
> nor I know.  Primarily because this same person wants to provide a 
> solution to us for an indeterminate price and if there is an issue at 
> any point we are left with no way of knowing how to fix the issue and 
> again be left with paying an indeterminate price for further support. 
> What my boss is more happy to do is pay for a commercial solution 
> regardless of price.  It is mainly because he is aware of what he 
> must pay before he purchases the solution and also because he knows 
> that it will do what he wants including support if we have an issue. 
> Obviously this would mean scrapping Linux out of the picture even 
> with the amount of high regard I give to it.

Ah, I think there is some more ambiguity showing through there.  I can 
completely understand you and your bosses lack of willingness to blindly 
enter in to a business arrangement.  First keep in mind that what was 
originally discussed / proposed is not a contractual agreement, simply 
and invitation to discuss things further to see if each party would be 
interested in doing business.  More of a "Hay, here is what I can do, 
call me if you would like more details." type thing.  With regards to 
the indeterminate amount, to me that is not as much as an issue that 
some might think at present because I do not know the true nature of 
what you are trying to accomplish nor have you heard my follow up 
responses that may provide a much better over all solution.  Once we had 
spoken and discussed such things there would be a much more firm 
estimate and / or range of expected time to do what ever as well as 
check points that either side of the agreement could back out gracefully 
with as little egg on their face as possible.

As far as being worried that some consultant would come in and change 
things with out your knowledge (of the reasoning behind the change) or 
consent, in short "That would *NEVER* happen!" as it is quite simply 
unethical.  Myself and my company would much rather help educate you 
along the way so that you can make the changes your self thus learn what 
needed to be done and why and how it effects things.  Thus you would be 
the one doing the work while knowing how to do it and how to support it 
in the long run.  I see my (companies) role in this as a guiding hand 
pointing you in the right direction and as a sounding board to discuss 
what really is the proper thing to do.  That is not to say that I would 
not be willing to log in to systems and make change, though there would 
have to be a very well established relationship prior to any thing 
remotely like that.  I would much rather help educate you so that you 
can do things your self.

I personally would hate to see you have to scrap Linux or any other open 
source solution just because your company does not have the in house 
knowledge set to take full advantage of open source software.

> So Grant, I'll put the ball back in your court.

I apologize if the first pitch seemed to be a curve and / or knuckle 
ball.  I was more going after a slow pitch softball with a note saying 
that I could offer more tailored support out side of the scope of this 
mailing list verses the more generic support that is usually found here. 
  I.e. what we would do off mailing list would include me having a 
fuller understanding of your network structure including host names and 
interface configurations so that all communications can use such 
information to be as thorough as possible verses the "System A" and 
"System B" approach which is left open to so much interpretation.

Please let me know what you think of this (hopefully) underhanded slow 
pitch softball.  ;)

> Regards,

Likewise.



Grant. . . .
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