alsa-devel on vger

alsa-devel on vger

[Takashi Iwai]

Hi,

What about the plan to move alsa-devel to vger?
Shouldn't we do that soon?


Takashi

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Rene Herman]

On 21-11-07 17:54, Takashi Iwai wrote:

> What about the plan to move alsa-devel to vger?
> Shouldn't we do that soon?

Jaroslav hasn't yet pointed alsa-devel@alsa-project.org at vger. It's a 
little unfortunate that David wouldn't just transfer subscriptions as it 
seems that's where things stalled again. Given our still recent move from 
sourceforge it really should be okay to just move everyone over.

I noticed that the entirety of people thanking David for setting up the list 
consisted of alsa-devel moderators, you and me, and I suspect most other 
subscribers don't feel there's actually much wrong with things as they are 
today and mostly consider moving again a nuisance. The one other reaction to 
the move was a slightly annoyed reaction about the re-subscribing...

Want me send out a few "please re-subscribe now" notices to the list? Or a 
few "please all pester David badly enough that he'll take the list just to 
get rid of us" notices perhaps?

Rene.

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[chris]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Rene Herman wrote:
> Or a few "please all pester David badly enough that he'll take the list 
> just to get rid of us" notices perhaps?

Yeah. That.

Chris

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Rene Herman wrote:

> On 21-11-07 17:54, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
> > What about the plan to move alsa-devel to vger?
> > Shouldn't we do that soon?
> 
> Jaroslav hasn't yet pointed alsa-devel@alsa-project.org at vger. It's a little
> unfortunate that David wouldn't just transfer subscriptions as it seems that's
> where things stalled again. Given our still recent move from sourceforge it
> really should be okay to just move everyone over.
> 
> I noticed that the entirety of people thanking David for setting up the list
> consisted of alsa-devel moderators, you and me, and I suspect most other
> subscribers don't feel there's actually much wrong with things as they are
> today and mostly consider moving again a nuisance. The one other reaction to
> the move was a slightly annoyed reaction about the re-subscribing...

I'm playing with idea to redirect alsa-devel@alsa-project.org to vger and 
leave current mailing list (which is subscribed to vger now too). So every 
e-mail to this list will go through vger, and resubscription will be only 
choice of subscriber. Opinions?

					Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@perex.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Tobin Davis]

My preference would be to do what ever it takes to keep the  lkml people
from whining, while simultaneously keep their flame wars off our list.
Seriously, I spent 6 hours weeding through that mess to see if there was
actually anything relevant (2 out of 200+ messages in 2 days).

Maybe the thing to do is agree if they change their bug reporting email
to bcc instead of cc.  That way, flame retardant is in effect.

-- 
Tobin Davis  


When you don't know what you are doing, do it neatly.

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[John Utz]

I second Tobin's opinion. That was unpleasant

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:23:25 -0800
"Tobin Davis" <tdavis@dsl-only.net> wrote:

> My preference would be to do what ever it takes to keep the  lkml
> people from whining, while simultaneously keep their flame wars off
> our list. Seriously, I spent 6 hours weeding through that mess to see
> if there was actually anything relevant (2 out of 200+ messages in 2
> days).
> 
> Maybe the thing to do is agree if they change their bug reporting
> email to bcc instead of cc.  That way, flame retardant is in effect.
> 

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007, Takashi Iwai wrote:

> At Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:14:34 +0100 (CET),
> Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Rene Herman wrote:
> > 
> > > On 21-11-07 17:54, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > 
> > > > What about the plan to move alsa-devel to vger?
> > > > Shouldn't we do that soon?
> > > 
> > > Jaroslav hasn't yet pointed alsa-devel@alsa-project.org at vger. 
> > > It's a little unfortunate that David wouldn't just transfer 
> > > subscriptions as it seems that's where things stalled again. Given 
> > > our still recent move from sourceforge it really should be okay to 
> > > just move everyone over.
> > > 
> > > I noticed that the entirety of people thanking David for setting up 
> > > the list consisted of alsa-devel moderators, you and me, and I 
> > > suspect most other subscribers don't feel there's actually much 
> > > wrong with things as they are today and mostly consider moving again 
> > > a nuisance. The one other reaction to the move was a slightly 
> > > annoyed reaction about the re-subscribing...
> > 
> > I'm playing with idea to redirect alsa-devel@alsa-project.org to vger and 
> > leave current mailing list (which is subscribed to vger now too). So every 
> > e-mail to this list will go through vger, and resubscription will be only 
> > choice of subscriber. Opinions?
> 
> A couple of things:
> 
> - the official address (on kernel tree and wiki) should be vger, not
>   alsa-project.org, and promote to re-subscribe.

Changing e-mail address of list is something I don't want.
The official e-mail address for alsa-devel mailing list was always 
alsa-devel@alsa-project.org (even in time when this list was on 
sourceforge). Unfortunately, vger mailing list does not accept simple 
redirected e-mails from alsa-devel@alsa-project.org so I postponed any 
actions.

> - open alsa-project.org list again.  I'll stop list admin works.

I tried to count some statistics and at the time spamassassin and 
mailman filtering rules catch 92% of spam messages coming to alsa-devel.
Unfortunately remaining 8% means 20 spam messages daily (without 
moderation). Could moderators confirm this value?

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@perex.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Rene Herman]

On 25-11-07 19:27, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007, Takashi Iwai wrote:

>> A couple of things:
>>
>> - the official address (on kernel tree and wiki) should be vger, not
>>   alsa-project.org, and promote to re-subscribe.
> 
> Changing e-mail address of list is something I don't want.
> The official e-mail address for alsa-devel mailing list was always 
> alsa-devel@alsa-project.org (even in time when this list was on 
> sourceforge). Unfortunately, vger mailing list does not accept simple 
> redirected e-mails from alsa-devel@alsa-project.org so I postponed any 
> actions.

I can sort of sympathise with wanting to keep the name, but well, Takashi is 
the most productive person in ALSA and I'd say that lessening his burdens is 
quite a priority in itself, so what need be, need be.

I myself said that I don't terribly mind the moderating, but I certainly 
wouldn't miss it either. I originally volunteered for a few weeks...

Possible to arrange with David Miller that the old name will still work?

>> - open alsa-project.org list again.  I'll stop list admin works.
> 
> I tried to count some statistics and at the time spamassassin and 
> mailman filtering rules catch 92% of spam messages coming to alsa-devel.
> Unfortunately remaining 8% means 20 spam messages daily (without 
> moderation). Could moderators confirm this value?

No, has too be significantly more, although it varies somewhat per day. But 
I alone moderate out more than that on average and I'm not alone. Are there 
no "discarded messages" statistic available from the moderation interface?

Rene.

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Rene Herman wrote:

> > I tried to count some statistics and at the time spamassassin and 
> > mailman filtering rules catch 92% of spam messages coming to 
> > alsa-devel. Unfortunately remaining 8% means 20 spam messages daily 
> > (without moderation). Could moderators confirm this value?
> 
> No, has too be significantly more, although it varies somewhat per day. 
> But I alone moderate out more than that on average and I'm not alone. 
> Are there no "discarded messages" statistic available from the 
> moderation interface?

>From mailman logs (May 04 - today):

Total held messages: 2922 (including approved ones)
Approved held messages: 419

Also note that ~143 held messages were approved on Nov 14 and Nov 15 (CCed 
thread from LKML - New Kernel Bugs).

I hope that all moderators are receiving notification about held messages, 
so it's no a problem to just check a list and login to mailman interface 
only when a non-spam (or not clear) message is on the list. I just 
configured mailman that all messages older than 4 days will be 
automatically discarded.

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@perex.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Rene Herman]

On 25-11-07 20:46, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Rene Herman wrote:
> 
>>> I tried to count some statistics and at the time spamassassin and 
>>> mailman filtering rules catch 92% of spam messages coming to 
>>> alsa-devel. Unfortunately remaining 8% means 20 spam messages daily 
>>> (without moderation). Could moderators confirm this value?
>> No, has too be significantly more, although it varies somewhat per day. 
>> But I alone moderate out more than that on average and I'm not alone. 
>> Are there no "discarded messages" statistic available from the 
>> moderation interface?
> 
>>From mailman logs (May 04 - today):
> 
> Total held messages: 2922 (including approved ones)
> Approved held messages: 419

That would be (2922 - 419) / ($-20070504) ~= 12/day. I'll pay attention for 
a bit, but that really doesn't sound right...

> Also note that ~143 held messages were approved on Nov 14 and Nov 15 (CCed 
> thread from LKML - New Kernel Bugs).
> 
> I hope that all moderators are receiving notification about held messages, 
> so it's no a problem to just check a list and login to mailman interface 
> only when a non-spam (or not clear) message is on the list. I just 
> configured mailman that all messages older than 4 days will be 
> automatically discarded.

I get them at least. You are a bit quick in snipping the arguments before 
this though. Did you try asking David Miller if the list could be at vger 
while keeping the alsa-devel@alsa-project.org name going?

Rene.

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Rene Herman]

On 25-11-07 21:27, Rene Herman wrote:

> On 25-11-07 20:46, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:

>>> From mailman logs (May 04 - today):
>>
>> Total held messages: 2922 (including approved ones)
>> Approved held messages: 419
> 
> That would be (2922 - 419) / ($-20070504) ~= 12/day. I'll pay attention 
> for a bit, but that really doesn't sound right...

Assuming noone else deleted any either, 32 since approximately this time 
yesterday which sounds better (for days without any specific spamruns).

I'm generally logged in to the thing all day long, so perhaps I've skewed 
the statistics by being too quick to get to some? Anyways, doesn't really 
matter...

Rene.

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Takashi Iwai]

At Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:27:38 +0100 (CET),
Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
> > At Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:14:34 +0100 (CET),
> > Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Rene Herman wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 21-11-07 17:54, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > What about the plan to move alsa-devel to vger?
> > > > > Shouldn't we do that soon?
> > > > 
> > > > Jaroslav hasn't yet pointed alsa-devel@alsa-project.org at vger. 
> > > > It's a little unfortunate that David wouldn't just transfer 
> > > > subscriptions as it seems that's where things stalled again. Given 
> > > > our still recent move from sourceforge it really should be okay to 
> > > > just move everyone over.
> > > > 
> > > > I noticed that the entirety of people thanking David for setting up 
> > > > the list consisted of alsa-devel moderators, you and me, and I 
> > > > suspect most other subscribers don't feel there's actually much 
> > > > wrong with things as they are today and mostly consider moving again 
> > > > a nuisance. The one other reaction to the move was a slightly 
> > > > annoyed reaction about the re-subscribing...
> > > 
> > > I'm playing with idea to redirect alsa-devel@alsa-project.org to vger and 
> > > leave current mailing list (which is subscribed to vger now too). So every 
> > > e-mail to this list will go through vger, and resubscription will be only 
> > > choice of subscriber. Opinions?
> > 
> > A couple of things:
> > 
> > - the official address (on kernel tree and wiki) should be vger, not
> >   alsa-project.org, and promote to re-subscribe.
> 
> Changing e-mail address of list is something I don't want.
> The official e-mail address for alsa-devel mailing list was always 
> alsa-devel@alsa-project.org (even in time when this list was on 
> sourceforge). Unfortunately, vger mailing list does not accept simple 
> redirected e-mails from alsa-devel@alsa-project.org so I postponed any 
> actions.
> 
> > - open alsa-project.org list again.  I'll stop list admin works.
> 
> I tried to count some statistics and at the time spamassassin and 
> mailman filtering rules catch 92% of spam messages coming to alsa-devel.
> Unfortunately remaining 8% means 20 spam messages daily (without 
> moderation). Could moderators confirm this value?

The problem is rather the nature of subscribers-only list.  It
requires approval if any non-list user posts.  So when the list is
CC'ed, you'll need more approval works and loose the synchronism.


BTW, it seems that some my posts have been lost in a day that
alsa-devel ML stopped.  The above quoted post seems not delivered
unless you were on Cc...


Takashi

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Takashi Iwai wrote:

> The problem is rather the nature of subscribers-only list.  It
> requires approval if any non-list user posts.  So when the list is
> CC'ed, you'll need more approval works and loose the synchronism.

True, but I think that relevant developers are CCed directly in most 
cases, so the delay is not big.

Anyway, I don't think that we have problem with mailman on 
alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, but with spam filter for incoming e-mails.

David, would be possible to let vger just filter our incoming e-mails?
I can redirect alsa-devel@alsa-project.org to a vger e-mail address and 
vger might return filtered e-mails back to
alsa-devel-incoming@alsa-project.org ? Then we can open current mailing 
list without bothering subscribers. Thank you for your reply.

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@perex.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project

Re: alsa-devel on vger

[Rene Herman]

On 26-11-07 09:11, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
>> The problem is rather the nature of subscribers-only list.  It
>> requires approval if any non-list user posts.  So when the list is
>> CC'ed, you'll need more approval works and loose the synchronism.
> 
> True, but I think that relevant developers are CCed directly in most 
> cases, so the delay is not big.
> 
> Anyway, I don't think that we have problem with mailman on 
> alsa-devel@alsa-project.org, but with spam filter for incoming e-mails.
> 
> David, would be possible to let vger just filter our incoming e-mails?
> I can redirect alsa-devel@alsa-project.org to a vger e-mail address and 
> vger might return filtered e-mails back to
> alsa-devel-incoming@alsa-project.org ? Then we can open current mailing 
> list without bothering subscribers. Thank you for your reply.

David?

Rene.