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From: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
To: Rusty Russell <rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
Cc: Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu>,
	Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>,
	Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	virtualization@lists.linux-foundation.org,
	Christian Borntraeger <borntraeger@de.ibm.com>,
	Matt Mackall <mpm@selenic.com>,
	Johannes Berg <johannes@sipsolutions.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] lguest: virtio-rng support
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:50:31 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <482E6417.8040602@zytor.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200805171446.39814.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>

Rusty Russell wrote:
> On Friday 16 May 2008 20:49:41 Johannes Berg wrote:
>>> +
>>> +/* Our random number generator device reads from /dev/urandom into the Guest's
>>> + * input buffers.  The usual case is that the Guest doesn't want random numbers
>>> + * and so has no buffers although /dev/urandom is still readable, whereas
>>> + * console is the reverse. 
>> Is it really a good idea to use the hosts /dev/urandom to fill the
>> guests /dev/random?
> 
> Technically it's up to rngd in the guest to decide whether to feed entropy
> or not (ie. /dev/urandom or /dev/random).

Uhm, no.  It's not.  Unless the host provides actual entropy 
information, you have a security hole.

> If we use /dev/random in the host, we risk a DoS.  But since /dev/random
> is 0666 on my system, perhaps noone actually cares?

/dev/random	= give me actual entropy, if you have some.
/dev/urandom	= give me what you have, regardless of quality.

There is no point in feeding the host /dev/urandom to the guest (except 
for seeding, which can be handled through other means); it will do its 
own mixing anyway.  The reason to provide anything at all from the host 
is to give it "golden" entropy bits.

	-hpa

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
To: Rusty Russell <rusty@rustcorp.com.au>
Cc: Johannes Berg <johannes@sipsolutions.net>,
	virtualization@lists.linux-foundation.org,
	Jeff Garzik <jeff@garzik.org>,
	Herbert Xu <herbert@gondor.apana.org.au>,
	Christian Borntraeger <borntraeger@de.ibm.com>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu>,
	Matt Mackall <mpm@selenic.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] lguest: virtio-rng support
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:50:31 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <482E6417.8040602@zytor.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <200805171446.39814.rusty@rustcorp.com.au>

Rusty Russell wrote:
> On Friday 16 May 2008 20:49:41 Johannes Berg wrote:
>>> +
>>> +/* Our random number generator device reads from /dev/urandom into the Guest's
>>> + * input buffers.  The usual case is that the Guest doesn't want random numbers
>>> + * and so has no buffers although /dev/urandom is still readable, whereas
>>> + * console is the reverse. 
>> Is it really a good idea to use the hosts /dev/urandom to fill the
>> guests /dev/random?
> 
> Technically it's up to rngd in the guest to decide whether to feed entropy
> or not (ie. /dev/urandom or /dev/random).

Uhm, no.  It's not.  Unless the host provides actual entropy 
information, you have a security hole.

> If we use /dev/random in the host, we risk a DoS.  But since /dev/random
> is 0666 on my system, perhaps noone actually cares?

/dev/random	= give me actual entropy, if you have some.
/dev/urandom	= give me what you have, regardless of quality.

There is no point in feeding the host /dev/urandom to the guest (except 
for seeding, which can be handled through other means); it will do its 
own mixing anyway.  The reason to provide anything at all from the host 
is to give it "golden" entropy bits.

	-hpa

  reply	other threads:[~2008-05-17  4:50 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 44+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-05-15 18:48 Virt RNG? Jeff Garzik
2008-05-15 19:53 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-15 19:53   ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-15 20:26   ` Dor Laor
2008-05-15 20:31 ` Christian Borntraeger
2008-05-15 20:44   ` Jeff Garzik
2008-05-15 20:43 ` Jeff Dike
2008-05-15 23:43 ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-16  0:07   ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2008-05-16  5:31   ` [PATCH 1/2] virtio: hardware random device Rusty Russell
2008-05-16  5:39     ` [PATCH 2/2] lguest: virtio-rng support Rusty Russell
2008-05-16  5:39     ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-16  5:39     ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-16 10:49       ` Johannes Berg
2008-05-16 20:25         ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-16 20:25         ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-17  4:46         ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-17  4:46         ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-17  4:50           ` H. Peter Anvin [this message]
2008-05-17  4:50             ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-17  6:28             ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-17  6:28             ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-17  6:43               ` Herbert Xu
2008-05-17  6:43                 ` Herbert Xu
2008-05-17  7:43                 ` Christian Borntraeger
2008-05-17  7:43                   ` Christian Borntraeger
2008-05-17 15:56                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-17 15:56                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-17  7:47               ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-17  7:47               ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-19  9:05                 ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-19  9:10                   ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-19  9:10                   ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-19  9:28                     ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-19  9:28                     ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-19  9:45                       ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-19  9:45                       ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2008-05-19  9:05                 ` Rusty Russell
2008-05-17 15:57               ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-17 15:57               ` H. Peter Anvin
2008-05-16 10:49       ` Johannes Berg
2008-05-16  7:31     ` [PATCH 1/2] virtio: hardware random device Christian Borntraeger
2008-05-16  7:31     ` Christian Borntraeger
2008-05-16  5:31   ` Rusty Russell

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