RFC: restart wiki from scratch

RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Rolf Leggewie]

Hi,

the openembedded website is in rather bad shape lately.  This includes
the wiki which has both technical and content problems.  I suggest to
start anew.

I'd like to go with mediawiki instead this time for the simple reason
that there are more of us who are actually familiar with this software
both from an admin and a user perspective.  Mediawiki was the software
for the OZ wiki which at its time wasn't doing too badly.

Whatever we do, I think we should not allow the current state to exist
much longer.

Regards

Rolf

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Koen Kooi]

Rolf Leggewie wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the openembedded website is in rather bad shape lately.  This includes
> the wiki which has both technical and content problems.  I suggest to
> start anew.
>
> I'd like to go with mediawiki instead this time for the simple reason
> that there are more of us who are actually familiar with this software
> both from an admin and a user perspective.  Mediawiki was the software
> for the OZ wiki which at its time wasn't doing too badly.
>
> Whatever we do, I think we should not allow the current state to exist
> much longer.

Wouldn't it be better to switch the complete website to something like 
ikiwiki[1]? That way every developer has the complete site and history 
available offline for editing and non-developers can edit it using their 
webbrowsers. Both http://monotone.ca/ and http://cairographics.org/ are 
very happy after their transition to ikiwiki.

regards,

Koen

[1] ikiwiki has mtn/svn/hg/git backends, so we can keep it in our 
scm-du-jour.

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Rolf Leggewie]

Hi Koen,

Koen Kooi wrote:
> Wouldn't it be better to switch the complete website to something like
> ikiwiki[1]?

Thank you for the suggestion.  I admit, I have never before heard about
ikiwiki.  Having offline editing capabilities certainly sounds
interesting.  But a quick look around google suggests that spam
protection is hard to come by.  If that is the case, I don't think it
would be a good choice for that reason alone.

On the other hand, a really quick google scan (just skimming the results
without actually visiting the pages) of "mediawiki offline OR git"
indicates that others have thought about using mediawiki offline.  Going
with the biggest project here will likely open up the biggest pool of
plugins, tweaks, etc.  Possibly including an offline or SCM integration.

Regards

Rolf

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Cliff Brake]

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Rolf Leggewie
<no2spam@nospam.arcornews.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the openembedded website is in rather bad shape lately.  This includes
> the wiki which has both technical and content problems.  I suggest to
> start anew.
>
> I'd like to go with mediawiki instead this time for the simple reason
> that there are more of us who are actually familiar with this software
> both from an admin and a user perspective.  Mediawiki was the software
> for the OZ wiki which at its time wasn't doing too badly.
>
> Whatever we do, I think we should not allow the current state to exist
> much longer.

Agreed, we should do something.  While the current site with all the
plugins like file browsing is neat, I wonder if we would be better off
implementing the main site in a rock solid wiki that offers:

1) RSS feeds on changes
2) a decent recent changes page
3) SPAM protection and easy to revert spam.

I look at the sites like:
http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
http://wiki.openzaurus.org/Main_Page
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

as good examples.

The wiki model is well understood, easy to use, and might be a good
foundation for a main site.

I'd be glad to assist where I can if man-power is needed on the setup
side of things.

Cliff

-- 
=======================
Cliff Brake
http://bec-systems.com

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Marcin Juszkiewicz]

Dnia Monday 26 of May 2008, Rolf Leggewie napisał:

> the openembedded website is in rather bad shape lately.  This includes
> the wiki which has both technical and content problems.  I suggest to
> start anew.
>
> I'd like to go with mediawiki instead this time for the simple reason
> that there are more of us who are actually familiar with this software
> both from an admin and a user perspective.  Mediawiki was the software
> for the OZ wiki which at its time wasn't doing too badly.
>
> Whatever we do, I think we should not allow the current state to exist
> much longer.

Agree - what we have now is hard to maintain and require Drupal experience 
which many people lack (I am one of them). Every time when I have to edit 
current OE wiki I feel that this is too complicated and too many options 
are present. Also there is always a problem with creating new pages as 
current situation looks like only registered users can create new pages 
but anyone can edit them.

Will it be MediaWiki or ikiwiki does not matter too much for me. We need 
system which has:

- spam protection
- protecting pages (so only admins can edit)
- registering users (I would prefer to not have anonymous edits)
- blocking users (spammers)
- sane syntax for content

We have to decide which way we will go. One wiki for website and 
documentation or website (drupal, wordpress) + documentation in wiki.

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Philip Balister]

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Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:
> Dnia Monday 26 of May 2008, Rolf Leggewie napisał:
> 
>> the openembedded website is in rather bad shape lately.  This includes
>> the wiki which has both technical and content problems.  I suggest to
>> start anew.
>>
>> I'd like to go with mediawiki instead this time for the simple reason
>> that there are more of us who are actually familiar with this software
>> both from an admin and a user perspective.  Mediawiki was the software
>> for the OZ wiki which at its time wasn't doing too badly.
>>
>> Whatever we do, I think we should not allow the current state to exist
>> much longer.
> 
> Agree - what we have now is hard to maintain and require Drupal experience 
> which many people lack (I am one of them). Every time when I have to edit 
> current OE wiki I feel that this is too complicated and too many options 
> are present. Also there is always a problem with creating new pages as 
> current situation looks like only registered users can create new pages 
> but anyone can edit them.
> 
> Will it be MediaWiki or ikiwiki does not matter too much for me. We need 
> system which has:
> 
> - spam protection
> - protecting pages (so only admins can edit)
> - registering users (I would prefer to not have anonymous edits)
> - blocking users (spammers)
> - sane syntax for content
> 
> We have to decide which way we will go. One wiki for website and 
> documentation or website (drupal, wordpress) + documentation in wiki.

Rather than worry about what wiki software to use, shouldn't we identify 
the people who will maintain the website, then let them decide what 
software will work best for the people maintaining it? It would be 
really nice spread the workload of maintaining the OE website beyond 
just the core developers.

Philip



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Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Florian Boor]

Hi,

Philip Balister wrote:
> Rather than worry about what wiki software to use, shouldn't we identify
> the people who will maintain the website, then let them decide what
> software will work best for the people maintaining it? 

that's the only way maintaining the website can be successful in future.

> It would be
> really nice spread the workload of maintaining the OE website beyond
> just the core developers.

Yes indeed, judging from the current situation having the same people as
developer, webmaster and administrator does not really work.

Greetings

Florian

-- 
The dream of yesterday                  Florian Boor
is the hope of today                    Tel: +49 271-771091-15
and the reality of tomorrow.            Fax: +49 271-771091-19
[Robert Hutchings Goddard, 1904]        florian.boor@kernelconcepts.de

1D78 2D4D 6C53 1CA4 5588  D07B A8E7 940C 25B7 9A76

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Leon Woestenberg]

Hello,

On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Florian Boor
<florian.boor@kernelconcepts.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Philip Balister wrote:
>> Rather than worry about what wiki software to use, shouldn't we identify
>> the people who will maintain the website, then let them decide what
>> software will work best for the people maintaining it?
>
> that's the only way maintaining the website can be successful in future.
>
Why not give every committer full Wiki page edit rights?

Regards
-- 
Leon

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Florian Boor]

Hi,

Leon Woestenberg wrote:

> Why not give every committer full Wiki page edit rights?

iirc you can edit pages even without an account, but creating new pages is
restricted to people with an account. And it is not obvious how to get one...
In fact I would not tie up SCM access with wiki access - these are two different
things. A wiki should be open to everyone...  The latest experience with the
wiki at LinuxToGo which allows most tasks even anonymously is pretty good. It is
using textchas for spam protection.

Greetings

Florian

-- 
The dream of yesterday                  Florian Boor
is the hope of today                    Tel: +49 271-771091-15
and the reality of tomorrow.            Fax: +49 271-771091-19
[Robert Hutchings Goddard, 1904]        florian.boor@kernelconcepts.de

1D78 2D4D 6C53 1CA4 5588  D07B A8E7 940C 25B7 9A76

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Philip Balister]

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Leon Woestenberg wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Florian Boor
> <florian.boor@kernelconcepts.de> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Philip Balister wrote:
>>> Rather than worry about what wiki software to use, shouldn't we identify
>>> the people who will maintain the website, then let them decide what
>>> software will work best for the people maintaining it?
>> that's the only way maintaining the website can be successful in future.
>>
> Why not give every committer full Wiki page edit rights?

I mean that the people responsible for the management tasks, like what 
backups, and figuring out who to give access to, should make the 
decision regarding what software to use. Of course lot's of people 
should be able to contribute content :)

Philip

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Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Rolf Leggewie]

Philip Balister wrote:
> I mean that the people responsible for the management tasks, like what
> backups, and figuring out who to give access to, should make the
> decision regarding what software to use.

Great.  So, it's agreed.  I'll start implementation soon.  Currently, we
have cbrake and me as main admins, hrw and mickey for standby in case
the mysql server needs a kick or some such.

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Jacob Thebault-Spieker]

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I don't have very much OE dev experience, but I've been a user for 
years. I do have a decent amount of web experience, so if help is 
needed, I would be willing to contribute some of my time towards this 
effort.

--
Jacob Thebault-Spieker
Cell: (207) 717-5114


Rolf Leggewie wrote:
> Philip Balister wrote:
>> I mean that the people responsible for the management tasks, like what
>> backups, and figuring out who to give access to, should make the
>> decision regarding what software to use.
> 
> Great.  So, it's agreed.  I'll start implementation soon.  Currently, we
> have cbrake and me as main admins, hrw and mickey for standby in case
> the mysql server needs a kick or some such.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Openembedded-devel mailing list
> Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel


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Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Rolf Leggewie]

Jacob Thebault-Spieker wrote:
> I don't have very much OE dev experience, but I've been a user for
> years. I do have a decent amount of web experience, so if help is
> needed, I would be willing to contribute some of my time towards this
> effort.

Great.  Count yourself in.

We'll do some testing initially and then if members of this list are
satisfied, switch the lever.

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Graeme Gregory]

On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 03:38:58PM +0200, Rolf Leggewie wrote:
> Philip Balister wrote:
> > I mean that the people responsible for the management tasks, like what
> > backups, and figuring out who to give access to, should make the
> > decision regarding what software to use.
> 
> Great.  So, it's agreed.  I'll start implementation soon.  Currently, we
> have cbrake and me as main admins, hrw and mickey for standby in case
> the mysql server needs a kick or some such.
> 
Can we have this official with an announcement of the OE docs team
forming? I cant see it being a problem with oe core dudes.

Just to cut down on bickering later in the day lets have it all now.

Graeme

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Jacob Thebault-Spieker]

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Awesome :) I'm also working on a Summer of Code project this summer, but 
just let me know what I should be doing, and when I've got time, I'll do 
it.

--
Jacob Thebault-Spieker
Cell: (207) 717-5114


Rolf Leggewie wrote:
> Jacob Thebault-Spieker wrote:
>> I don't have very much OE dev experience, but I've been a user for
>> years. I do have a decent amount of web experience, so if help is
>> needed, I would be willing to contribute some of my time towards this
>> effort.
> 
> Great.  Count yourself in.
> 
> We'll do some testing initially and then if members of this list are
> satisfied, switch the lever.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Openembedded-devel mailing list
> Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel


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Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Richard Purdie]

On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 15:08 +0100, Graeme Gregory wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 03:38:58PM +0200, Rolf Leggewie wrote:
> Can we have this official with an announcement of the OE docs team
> forming? I cant see it being a problem with oe core dudes.
> 
> Just to cut down on bickering later in the day lets have it all now.

My thoughts exactly. I don't see a problem sorting it out and having an
official status deals with potential issues which may otherwise appear
later down the line.

Cheers,

Richard

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Rolf Leggewie]

Graeme Gregory wrote:
> Can we have this official with an announcement of the OE docs team
> forming? I cant see it being a problem with oe core dudes.
> 
> Just to cut down on bickering later in the day lets have it all now.

Hm, I am a bit irritated as to what kind of bickering you and RP seem to
expect.  People's voices were heard and I think the discussion came to a
conclusion.  Things continued from there with me taking the lead on the
proposed solution.

If there is the need for one more official announcement (why yet another
one?) then that should wait until the site is up, DNS updated and some
content in.

Furthermore, I am not sure what OE doc team we are talking about.  I had
prepared a lengthy reply today to Philip's "let the guys who do the work
form first and decide on software then".  I scrapped that because a)
there is no doc team and nobody stood up and volunteered and b) because
I understood his message
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openembedded/18575/focus=18602
 as "let the wiki admin team decide".  The wiki admin team is not the
same as the doc team, I just want to make sure that is not misinterpreted.

BTW, a growth from 0 admins to 5 admins in about 1 hour should squash
any possible bickering IMHO.  And maybe we should start giving the
people who take the initiative more credit instead of burdening them
with ever more thoughts about some *possible* bickering.  If ever there
was a need for that, time was amply provided during the RFC phase.

Re: RFC: restart wiki from scratch

[Rolf Leggewie]

Rolf Leggewie wrote:
> BTW, a growth from 0 admins to 5 admins

We welcome two more volunteers to the admin team: khem and xjqian