SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Gernot Kohlhaas]

Okay... Sorry... Forget what I just wrote...
Seems to be my 20 to 51 solution with the mentioned LADSPA Low Pass Filter.
"default" device is just playing fine.

my .asoundrc:
pcm.xfi
{
  type hw
  card 0
  channels 6
}

ctl.xfi
{
  type hw
  card 0
}

pcm.ch51dup {
         slave.pcm "plug:lowpass51"
         slave.channels 6
         type route
         ttable.0.0 1
         ttable.1.1 1
         ttable.0.2 1
         ttable.1.3 1
         ttable.0.4 0.5
         ttable.1.4 0.5
         ttable.0.5 1
         ttable.1.5 1
}

pcm.lowpass51 {
    type ladspa
    slave.pcm default
    path "/usr/lib/ladspa"
    plugins {
        0 {
            id 1098 # Identity (Audio) (1098/identity_audio)
            policy duplicate
            input.bindings.0 "Input";
            output.bindings.0 "Output";
        }

        1 {
            id 1672
            policy none
            input.bindings.5 "Input";
            output.bindings.5 "Output";
            input {
                controls [ 120 2 ]
            }
        }
    }
}
-- 
http://www.gnupp.de/verschluesselung/warum.html
Key ID: 0x4C0B2250
Key: http://home.arcor.de/mr_maniac/ANDERES/public.gpg

Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver

[MonsieurWeller]

Hello.
Works fine, but the external rack of the "x-fi fatality" didn't seems to
work. I plug my headphone on it and i have no sound.
Thanks.

Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver

[Takashi Iwai]

At Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:42:22 +0200,
MonsieurWeller wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> Works fine, but the external rack of the "x-fi fatality" didn't seems to
> work. I plug my headphone on it and i have no sound.

It's not supported yet.  That's a known issue.
(And don't ask me when it'll be supported -- only Creative guys know :)


Takashi

Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver

[Takashi Iwai]

At Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:00:26 +0200,
MonsieurWeller wrote:
> 
> Thanks for reply. Hope Creative engineers read this :D.
> Two other little things :D:
> - The sound seems really really to loud compared to my audigy2 zs ( for
> the same level: pcm/master/etc... 74 in alsamixer for the audigy vs 26
> for the xfi)

Yes, it's a known issue.  100% doesn't correspond to 0dB but
overdriving. 0dB is about 70% or so, and the volume scale doesn't look 
logarithmic.

> - There's no cursor for bass and treble in alsamixer: not supported?

Not supported.  Some DSP code would be required, which isn't open
yet.


thanks,

Takashi

SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Sun, 07 Jun 2009 18:10:32 +0200,
I wrote:
> 
> At Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:00:26 +0200,
> MonsieurWeller wrote:
> > 
> > Thanks for reply. Hope Creative engineers read this :D.
> > Two other little things :D:
> > - The sound seems really really to loud compared to my audigy2 zs ( for
> > the same level: pcm/master/etc... 74 in alsamixer for the audigy vs 26
> > for the xfi)
> 
> Yes, it's a known issue.  100% doesn't correspond to 0dB but
> overdriving. 0dB is about 70% or so, and the volume scale doesn't look 
> logarithmic.

FYI, the latest version I committed right now contains the following
fixes:

- The volume scale is corrected; 100% corresponds to 0dB now
- The dB scale is also shown (in the supported mixers)
- The native timer interrupt is used for updating PCM streams on
  emu20k1 so that you get more accurate updates.  On emu20k2, still
  the system timer is used.  PA should work better now on emu20k1.
- Mixer controls have device number 0 (just internal issue)
- 64bit DMA support
- SG-buffer support
- Fix surround / rear name confusion
- Fix build on non-intel architectures
- Lots of code clean-ups


Try the latest alsa-driver snapshot or GIT tree below:
  ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/tiwai/snapshot/alsa-driver-snapshot.tar.gz
  git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/tiwai/sound-2.6.git


Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Gernot Kohlhaas]

Hi!

Works like a charme, except for some crashes I had...
Three crashes two days ago (in audacious) and two in xmms.
Sound keeps looping (a few ms) and my whole system is totally frozen.
After that I can't find any usable output in my log-files (no output
from the crash at all).

I'll play around a bit and see if I can crash it again.

Anything I should try/look for?

BTW: Is there any way to achive Low Pass Filtering with "on-board"
ALSA-Tools/Methods?
ATM I am using a ladspa plugin that I specified in my .asoundrc.

Kernel: 2.6.29-gentoo-r5 x86_64
gcc-4.3.3
glibc-2.8_p20080602-r1

lspci -vv
05:00.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB X-Fi
        Subsystem: Creative Labs X-Fi XtremeGamer FATAL1TY PRO
        Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop-
ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx-
        Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=medium >TAbort-
<TAbort- <MAbort- >SERR- <PERR- INTx-
        Latency: 64 (1000ns min, 1250ns max), Cache Line Size: 32 bytes
        Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 16
        Region 0: I/O ports at ec00 [size=32]
        Region 1: Memory at fea00000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=2M]
        Region 3: Memory at f8000000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64M]
        Capabilities: [40] Power Management version 2
                Flags: PMEClk- DSI+ D1+ D2+ AuxCurrent=0mA
PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
                Status: D0 PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
        Capabilities: [50] Message Signalled Interrupts: Mask- 64bit+
Count=1/1 Enable-
                Address: 0000000000000000  Data: 0000
        Kernel driver in use: SB-XFi
        Kernel modules: snd-ctxfi

dmesg:
SB-XFi 0000:05:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
-- 
http://www.gnupp.de/verschluesselung/warum.html
Key ID: 0x4C0B2250
Key: http://home.arcor.de/mr_maniac/ANDERES/public.gpg

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:21:59 +0200,
Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Works like a charme, except for some crashes I had...
> Three crashes two days ago (in audacious) and two in xmms.
> Sound keeps looping (a few ms) and my whole system is totally frozen.
> After that I can't find any usable output in my log-files (no output
> from the crash at all).
> 
> I'll play around a bit and see if I can crash it again.
> 
> Anything I should try/look for?

Please check alsa-driver/HEAD and alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
to identify which version you are using.  Update to the latest one,
too.
Also, don't forget to enable the debug option via --with-debug=full
to configure script.


> BTW: Is there any way to achive Low Pass Filtering with "on-board"
> ALSA-Tools/Methods?

No native one, so far.


Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Gernot Kohlhaas]

Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> Please check alsa-driver/HEAD and alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
> to identify which version you are using.  Update to the latest one,
> too.
> Also, don't forget to enable the debug option via --with-debug=full
> to configure script.

alsa-driver-snapshot downloaded today.

alsa-driver/HEAD:
dae8eb6334cc973b91a29a973108dcbba4ac24bf Fix ctatc.patch
f89c50e8a567e1e34931dae07d8adc6cbe08e108 Add linux/math64.h compat header
b387a66e3bdf25284ef2f57545d305735e4646e3 Add missing pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c
955ee62b99a82018196b9f668a5ee6606175109e Merge branch 'topic/maya44'
6254b0fa8631a8a2a83fbc3eff36b512d834118d alsa-info.sh: Provide system
manufacturer and product name from DMI
bbfb14518b44c3caba5c5bc351c9ee340a96d867 Add parsing of def_tristate to
mod-deps
93e325ec42cbf842799bfbdf28b17c7f81f8089e Regenerated riptide.patch
5a4737e4e0ef6587e7f6ca84ccdc6f88c54cf18a Add soc/txx9 build stub
bf12e88a905bfd49206eb2519a5519564e9a2b94 ctxfi - Fix build with older kernel
dfec670bc3bd3351b61dcd40b4c2ced4f95b91d8 ctxfi - Add new PCI ids to
pci_ids_compat.h.in

alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
299c425e12d437bd413aa45381cf035bbc67e545 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
09521d2e3edd0bf02b66e5b8c13f1559f2d6958a ALSA: ctxfi - Fix wrong model
id for UAA
549d272ac7d0d98c1fb3419108befb05f88605d7 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
9470195a9cd13e6d90221b8b5d897e9232da8d28 ALSA: ctxfi - Clean up probe
routines
ec46e1d31cb6ff5bac6333c06b6b79c941368cb4 Merge branch 'topic/hda'
f03ecf50534a81b06544c58a713076d59d54baf9 ALSA: hda - Fix the previous
tagra-8ch patch
3885e40ccf9629f1cda4aac23f3d6c9c82fb875e Merge branch 'topic/hda'
64a8be74357477558183b43156c5536b642de134 ALSA: hda - Add 7.1 support for
MSI GX620
318192e14f80bb883dfd06eb9ea8aa22e7353dd3 Merge branch
'topic/pcm-jiffies-check'
c00701101b82f2bc61dfc259748ec6e5288af6a9 ALSA: pcm - A helper function
to compose PCM stream name for debug prints

The crash happened with alsa-driver-unstable-snapshot from 2009-06-07
and with alsa-driver-snapshot from 2009-06-08.

Still no usable output. Only dmesg gives me two more lines when loading
the module:
ALSA /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/ctatc.c:1248: ctxfi: chip 20K1 model
Unknown (1102:002c) is found
SB-XFi 0000:05:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
ALSA
/usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/../../alsa-kernel/pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c:419:
ctxfi: Use xfi-native timer

With debug=full, the sound gets distorted every 1/3 second.

The crash only happens in xmms and audacious, when my upmix-device is
used (there I use a low pass filter via ladspa). When I use the default
device, it just plays fine (but only plain stereo without subwoofer ;) ).
I'll try to disable the low pass filter to see, if it works better.

Thanks!

-- 
http://www.gnupp.de/verschluesselung/warum.html
Key ID: 0x4C0B2250
Key: http://home.arcor.de/mr_maniac/ANDERES/public.gpg

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:16:01 +0200,
Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> 
> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> > Please check alsa-driver/HEAD and alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
> > to identify which version you are using.  Update to the latest one,
> > too.
> > Also, don't forget to enable the debug option via --with-debug=full
> > to configure script.
> 
> alsa-driver-snapshot downloaded today.
> 
> alsa-driver/HEAD:
> dae8eb6334cc973b91a29a973108dcbba4ac24bf Fix ctatc.patch
> f89c50e8a567e1e34931dae07d8adc6cbe08e108 Add linux/math64.h compat header
> b387a66e3bdf25284ef2f57545d305735e4646e3 Add missing pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c
> 955ee62b99a82018196b9f668a5ee6606175109e Merge branch 'topic/maya44'
> 6254b0fa8631a8a2a83fbc3eff36b512d834118d alsa-info.sh: Provide system
> manufacturer and product name from DMI
> bbfb14518b44c3caba5c5bc351c9ee340a96d867 Add parsing of def_tristate to
> mod-deps
> 93e325ec42cbf842799bfbdf28b17c7f81f8089e Regenerated riptide.patch
> 5a4737e4e0ef6587e7f6ca84ccdc6f88c54cf18a Add soc/txx9 build stub
> bf12e88a905bfd49206eb2519a5519564e9a2b94 ctxfi - Fix build with older kernel
> dfec670bc3bd3351b61dcd40b4c2ced4f95b91d8 ctxfi - Add new PCI ids to
> pci_ids_compat.h.in
> 
> alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
> 299c425e12d437bd413aa45381cf035bbc67e545 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
> 09521d2e3edd0bf02b66e5b8c13f1559f2d6958a ALSA: ctxfi - Fix wrong model
> id for UAA
> 549d272ac7d0d98c1fb3419108befb05f88605d7 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
> 9470195a9cd13e6d90221b8b5d897e9232da8d28 ALSA: ctxfi - Clean up probe
> routines
> ec46e1d31cb6ff5bac6333c06b6b79c941368cb4 Merge branch 'topic/hda'
> f03ecf50534a81b06544c58a713076d59d54baf9 ALSA: hda - Fix the previous
> tagra-8ch patch
> 3885e40ccf9629f1cda4aac23f3d6c9c82fb875e Merge branch 'topic/hda'
> 64a8be74357477558183b43156c5536b642de134 ALSA: hda - Add 7.1 support for
> MSI GX620
> 318192e14f80bb883dfd06eb9ea8aa22e7353dd3 Merge branch
> 'topic/pcm-jiffies-check'
> c00701101b82f2bc61dfc259748ec6e5288af6a9 ALSA: pcm - A helper function
> to compose PCM stream name for debug prints
> 
> The crash happened with alsa-driver-unstable-snapshot from 2009-06-07
> and with alsa-driver-snapshot from 2009-06-08.
> 
> Still no usable output. Only dmesg gives me two more lines when loading
> the module:
> ALSA /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/ctatc.c:1248: ctxfi: chip 20K1 model
> Unknown (1102:002c) is found
> SB-XFi 0000:05:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
> ALSA
> /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/../../alsa-kernel/pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c:419:
> ctxfi: Use xfi-native timer
> 
> With debug=full, the sound gets distorted every 1/3 second.
> 
> The crash only happens in xmms and audacious, when my upmix-device is
> used (there I use a low pass filter via ladspa). When I use the default
> device, it just plays fine (but only plain stereo without subwoofer ;) ).
> I'll try to disable the low pass filter to see, if it works better.

Get more newer version, and you'll have use_system_timer module option
available.  Try to load the driver with use_system_timer=1 option.
Is it more stable?


Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:16:01 +0200,
Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> 
> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> > Please check alsa-driver/HEAD and alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
> > to identify which version you are using.  Update to the latest one,
> > too.
> > Also, don't forget to enable the debug option via --with-debug=full
> > to configure script.
> 
> alsa-driver-snapshot downloaded today.
> 
> alsa-driver/HEAD:
> dae8eb6334cc973b91a29a973108dcbba4ac24bf Fix ctatc.patch
> f89c50e8a567e1e34931dae07d8adc6cbe08e108 Add linux/math64.h compat header
> b387a66e3bdf25284ef2f57545d305735e4646e3 Add missing pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c
> 955ee62b99a82018196b9f668a5ee6606175109e Merge branch 'topic/maya44'
> 6254b0fa8631a8a2a83fbc3eff36b512d834118d alsa-info.sh: Provide system
> manufacturer and product name from DMI
> bbfb14518b44c3caba5c5bc351c9ee340a96d867 Add parsing of def_tristate to
> mod-deps
> 93e325ec42cbf842799bfbdf28b17c7f81f8089e Regenerated riptide.patch
> 5a4737e4e0ef6587e7f6ca84ccdc6f88c54cf18a Add soc/txx9 build stub
> bf12e88a905bfd49206eb2519a5519564e9a2b94 ctxfi - Fix build with older kernel
> dfec670bc3bd3351b61dcd40b4c2ced4f95b91d8 ctxfi - Add new PCI ids to
> pci_ids_compat.h.in
> 
> alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
> 299c425e12d437bd413aa45381cf035bbc67e545 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
> 09521d2e3edd0bf02b66e5b8c13f1559f2d6958a ALSA: ctxfi - Fix wrong model
> id for UAA
> 549d272ac7d0d98c1fb3419108befb05f88605d7 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
> 9470195a9cd13e6d90221b8b5d897e9232da8d28 ALSA: ctxfi - Clean up probe
> routines
> ec46e1d31cb6ff5bac6333c06b6b79c941368cb4 Merge branch 'topic/hda'
> f03ecf50534a81b06544c58a713076d59d54baf9 ALSA: hda - Fix the previous
> tagra-8ch patch
> 3885e40ccf9629f1cda4aac23f3d6c9c82fb875e Merge branch 'topic/hda'
> 64a8be74357477558183b43156c5536b642de134 ALSA: hda - Add 7.1 support for
> MSI GX620
> 318192e14f80bb883dfd06eb9ea8aa22e7353dd3 Merge branch
> 'topic/pcm-jiffies-check'
> c00701101b82f2bc61dfc259748ec6e5288af6a9 ALSA: pcm - A helper function
> to compose PCM stream name for debug prints
> 
> The crash happened with alsa-driver-unstable-snapshot from 2009-06-07
> and with alsa-driver-snapshot from 2009-06-08.
> 
> Still no usable output. Only dmesg gives me two more lines when loading
> the module:
> ALSA /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/ctatc.c:1248: ctxfi: chip 20K1 model
> Unknown (1102:002c) is found
> SB-XFi 0000:05:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
> ALSA
> /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/../../alsa-kernel/pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c:419:
> ctxfi: Use xfi-native timer
> 
> With debug=full, the sound gets distorted every 1/3 second.
> 
> The crash only happens in xmms and audacious, when my upmix-device is
> used (there I use a low pass filter via ladspa). When I use the default
> device, it just plays fine (but only plain stereo without subwoofer ;) ).
> I'll try to disable the low pass filter to see, if it works better.

Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
setup?

I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
know more details.


thanks,

Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[The Source]

On 09.06.2009 06:20, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:16:01 +0200,
> Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
>    
>> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
>>      
>>> Please check alsa-driver/HEAD and alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
>>> to identify which version you are using.  Update to the latest one,
>>> too.
>>> Also, don't forget to enable the debug option via --with-debug=full
>>> to configure script.
>>>        
>> alsa-driver-snapshot downloaded today.
>>
>> alsa-driver/HEAD:
>> dae8eb6334cc973b91a29a973108dcbba4ac24bf Fix ctatc.patch
>> f89c50e8a567e1e34931dae07d8adc6cbe08e108 Add linux/math64.h compat header
>> b387a66e3bdf25284ef2f57545d305735e4646e3 Add missing pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c
>> 955ee62b99a82018196b9f668a5ee6606175109e Merge branch 'topic/maya44'
>> 6254b0fa8631a8a2a83fbc3eff36b512d834118d alsa-info.sh: Provide system
>> manufacturer and product name from DMI
>> bbfb14518b44c3caba5c5bc351c9ee340a96d867 Add parsing of def_tristate to
>> mod-deps
>> 93e325ec42cbf842799bfbdf28b17c7f81f8089e Regenerated riptide.patch
>> 5a4737e4e0ef6587e7f6ca84ccdc6f88c54cf18a Add soc/txx9 build stub
>> bf12e88a905bfd49206eb2519a5519564e9a2b94 ctxfi - Fix build with older kernel
>> dfec670bc3bd3351b61dcd40b4c2ced4f95b91d8 ctxfi - Add new PCI ids to
>> pci_ids_compat.h.in
>>
>> alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
>> 299c425e12d437bd413aa45381cf035bbc67e545 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
>> 09521d2e3edd0bf02b66e5b8c13f1559f2d6958a ALSA: ctxfi - Fix wrong model
>> id for UAA
>> 549d272ac7d0d98c1fb3419108befb05f88605d7 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
>> 9470195a9cd13e6d90221b8b5d897e9232da8d28 ALSA: ctxfi - Clean up probe
>> routines
>> ec46e1d31cb6ff5bac6333c06b6b79c941368cb4 Merge branch 'topic/hda'
>> f03ecf50534a81b06544c58a713076d59d54baf9 ALSA: hda - Fix the previous
>> tagra-8ch patch
>> 3885e40ccf9629f1cda4aac23f3d6c9c82fb875e Merge branch 'topic/hda'
>> 64a8be74357477558183b43156c5536b642de134 ALSA: hda - Add 7.1 support for
>> MSI GX620
>> 318192e14f80bb883dfd06eb9ea8aa22e7353dd3 Merge branch
>> 'topic/pcm-jiffies-check'
>> c00701101b82f2bc61dfc259748ec6e5288af6a9 ALSA: pcm - A helper function
>> to compose PCM stream name for debug prints
>>
>> The crash happened with alsa-driver-unstable-snapshot from 2009-06-07
>> and with alsa-driver-snapshot from 2009-06-08.
>>
>> Still no usable output. Only dmesg gives me two more lines when loading
>> the module:
>> ALSA /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/ctatc.c:1248: ctxfi: chip 20K1 model
>> Unknown (1102:002c) is found
>> SB-XFi 0000:05:00.0: PCI INT A ->  GSI 16 (level, low) ->  IRQ 16
>> ALSA
>> /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/../../alsa-kernel/pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c:419:
>> ctxfi: Use xfi-native timer
>>
>> With debug=full, the sound gets distorted every 1/3 second.
>>
>> The crash only happens in xmms and audacious, when my upmix-device is
>> used (there I use a low pass filter via ladspa). When I use the default
>> device, it just plays fine (but only plain stereo without subwoofer ;) ).
>> I'll try to disable the low pass filter to see, if it works better.
>>      
> Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
> distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
> setup?
>
> I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
> so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
> If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
> know more details.
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Takashi
> _______________________________________________
> Alsa-devel mailing list
> Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
>
>    
PA now works, thank you. Still 'ticks' with OpenAL though

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:50:33 +0400,
The Source wrote:
> 
> On 09.06.2009 06:20, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > At Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:16:01 +0200,
> > Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> >    
> >> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> >>      
> >>> Please check alsa-driver/HEAD and alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
> >>> to identify which version you are using.  Update to the latest one,
> >>> too.
> >>> Also, don't forget to enable the debug option via --with-debug=full
> >>> to configure script.
> >>>        
> >> alsa-driver-snapshot downloaded today.
> >>
> >> alsa-driver/HEAD:
> >> dae8eb6334cc973b91a29a973108dcbba4ac24bf Fix ctatc.patch
> >> f89c50e8a567e1e34931dae07d8adc6cbe08e108 Add linux/math64.h compat header
> >> b387a66e3bdf25284ef2f57545d305735e4646e3 Add missing pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c
> >> 955ee62b99a82018196b9f668a5ee6606175109e Merge branch 'topic/maya44'
> >> 6254b0fa8631a8a2a83fbc3eff36b512d834118d alsa-info.sh: Provide system
> >> manufacturer and product name from DMI
> >> bbfb14518b44c3caba5c5bc351c9ee340a96d867 Add parsing of def_tristate to
> >> mod-deps
> >> 93e325ec42cbf842799bfbdf28b17c7f81f8089e Regenerated riptide.patch
> >> 5a4737e4e0ef6587e7f6ca84ccdc6f88c54cf18a Add soc/txx9 build stub
> >> bf12e88a905bfd49206eb2519a5519564e9a2b94 ctxfi - Fix build with older kernel
> >> dfec670bc3bd3351b61dcd40b4c2ced4f95b91d8 ctxfi - Add new PCI ids to
> >> pci_ids_compat.h.in
> >>
> >> alsa-driver/alsa-kernel/HEAD
> >> 299c425e12d437bd413aa45381cf035bbc67e545 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
> >> 09521d2e3edd0bf02b66e5b8c13f1559f2d6958a ALSA: ctxfi - Fix wrong model
> >> id for UAA
> >> 549d272ac7d0d98c1fb3419108befb05f88605d7 Merge branch 'topic/ctxfi'
> >> 9470195a9cd13e6d90221b8b5d897e9232da8d28 ALSA: ctxfi - Clean up probe
> >> routines
> >> ec46e1d31cb6ff5bac6333c06b6b79c941368cb4 Merge branch 'topic/hda'
> >> f03ecf50534a81b06544c58a713076d59d54baf9 ALSA: hda - Fix the previous
> >> tagra-8ch patch
> >> 3885e40ccf9629f1cda4aac23f3d6c9c82fb875e Merge branch 'topic/hda'
> >> 64a8be74357477558183b43156c5536b642de134 ALSA: hda - Add 7.1 support for
> >> MSI GX620
> >> 318192e14f80bb883dfd06eb9ea8aa22e7353dd3 Merge branch
> >> 'topic/pcm-jiffies-check'
> >> c00701101b82f2bc61dfc259748ec6e5288af6a9 ALSA: pcm - A helper function
> >> to compose PCM stream name for debug prints
> >>
> >> The crash happened with alsa-driver-unstable-snapshot from 2009-06-07
> >> and with alsa-driver-snapshot from 2009-06-08.
> >>
> >> Still no usable output. Only dmesg gives me two more lines when loading
> >> the module:
> >> ALSA /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/ctatc.c:1248: ctxfi: chip 20K1 model
> >> Unknown (1102:002c) is found
> >> SB-XFi 0000:05:00.0: PCI INT A ->  GSI 16 (level, low) ->  IRQ 16
> >> ALSA
> >> /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/../../alsa-kernel/pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c:419:
> >> ctxfi: Use xfi-native timer
> >>
> >> With debug=full, the sound gets distorted every 1/3 second.
> >>
> >> The crash only happens in xmms and audacious, when my upmix-device is
> >> used (there I use a low pass filter via ladspa). When I use the default
> >> device, it just plays fine (but only plain stereo without subwoofer ;) ).
> >> I'll try to disable the low pass filter to see, if it works better.
> >>      
> > Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
> > distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
> > setup?
> >
> > I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
> > so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
> > If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
> > know more details.
> >
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Takashi
> > _______________________________________________
> > Alsa-devel mailing list
> > Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> > http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
> >
> >    
> PA now works, thank you. Still 'ticks' with OpenAL though

Does It happen when you pass use_system_timer=1 module option, too?
This basically gives the old timer behavior back, so I don't expect
much.  But just to be sure...

Also, what are the contents of /proc/asound/card0/pcm0p/sub0/* files
during running openal and other backends?


Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Gernot Kohlhaas]

Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> 
> Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
> distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
> setup?
> 
> I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
> so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
> If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
> know more details.
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Takashi
> 
No, this distortion happens "everywhere" when I compile the module with
--debug=full.

For the crashes: They only happen when I use the LADSPA low pass filter
AND when I am fast forwarding in xmms. When I don't use fast forwarding,
everything works fine. But I will try use_system_timer=1 when I get back
from work today.
It really seems like the plug-in is doing some weird stuff.

Thanks for the help!

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Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:23:56 +0200,
Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> 
> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> > 
> > Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
> > distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
> > setup?
> > 
> > I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
> > so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
> > If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
> > know more details.
> > 
> > 
> > thanks,
> > 
> > Takashi
> > 
> No, this distortion happens "everywhere" when I compile the module with
> --debug=full.

That's weird.  Do you get any kernel messages?

> For the crashes: They only happen when I use the LADSPA low pass filter
> AND when I am fast forwarding in xmms. When I don't use fast forwarding,
> everything works fine. But I will try use_system_timer=1 when I get back
> from work today.
> It really seems like the plug-in is doing some weird stuff.

But the plugin itself cannot lead to a system crash.  It's the driver.

Do I understand correctly that your system locks up when this happens,
right?  If yes, the cause might be the mmap mode access.


Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Gernot Kohlhaas]

Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:23:56 +0200,
> Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
>> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
>>> Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
>>> distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
>>> setup?
>>>
>>> I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
>>> so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
>>> If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
>>> know more details.
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Takashi
>>>
>> No, this distortion happens "everywhere" when I compile the module with
>> --debug=full.
> 
> That's weird.  Do you get any kernel messages?
> 
Unfortunately not. Just the "standard" ones (when loading the module).

>> For the crashes: They only happen when I use the LADSPA low pass filter
>> AND when I am fast forwarding in xmms. When I don't use fast forwarding,
>> everything works fine. But I will try use_system_timer=1 when I get back
>> from work today.
>> It really seems like the plug-in is doing some weird stuff.
> 
> But the plugin itself cannot lead to a system crash.  It's the driver.
> 
> Do I understand correctly that your system locks up when this happens,
> right?  If yes, the cause might be the mmap mode access.
> 
Yes, it locks up. No kernel panic or something like that. A "hard"
lock-up/freeze.
> 
> Takashi
> 
> 


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Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:44:29 +0200,
Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> 
> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> > At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:23:56 +0200,
> > Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> >> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> >>> Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
> >>> distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
> >>> setup?
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
> >>> so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
> >>> If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
> >>> know more details.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Takashi
> >>>
> >> No, this distortion happens "everywhere" when I compile the module with
> >> --debug=full.
> > 
> > That's weird.  Do you get any kernel messages?
> > 
> Unfortunately not. Just the "standard" ones (when loading the module).

Hm, please double-check later.  I really don't see any possible cause
of this.

> >> For the crashes: They only happen when I use the LADSPA low pass filter
> >> AND when I am fast forwarding in xmms. When I don't use fast forwarding,
> >> everything works fine. But I will try use_system_timer=1 when I get back
> >> from work today.
> >> It really seems like the plug-in is doing some weird stuff.
> > 
> > But the plugin itself cannot lead to a system crash.  It's the driver.
> > 
> > Do I understand correctly that your system locks up when this happens,
> > right?  If yes, the cause might be the mmap mode access.
> > 
> Yes, it locks up. No kernel panic or something like that. A "hard"
> lock-up/freeze.

OK, this implies either a spin deadlock or a dead-end in the irq
handler.

Anyway, please try the very latest alsa-driver-snapshot.  If it still
doesn't work, let me know whether use_system_timer=1 works around the
crash.  If yes, just try to comment out all spin_*() calls in
cttimer.c.


thanks,

Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:24:41 +0200,
I wrote:
> 
> At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:44:29 +0200,
> Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> > 
> > Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> > > At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:23:56 +0200,
> > > Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> > >> Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> > >>> Also, do you mean that the default output works without 1/3 second
> > >>> distortion?  Or, the distortion happens regardless of your PCM device
> > >>> setup?
> > >>>
> > >>> I'd like to concentrate on debugging the default setup at first,
> > >>> so better to reduce the risk of brokenness of ladspa plugin.
> > >>> If you get any severe problems with the default setup, please let me
> > >>> know more details.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> Takashi
> > >>>
> > >> No, this distortion happens "everywhere" when I compile the module with
> > >> --debug=full.
> > > 
> > > That's weird.  Do you get any kernel messages?
> > > 
> > Unfortunately not. Just the "standard" ones (when loading the module).
> 
> Hm, please double-check later.  I really don't see any possible cause
> of this.
> 
> > >> For the crashes: They only happen when I use the LADSPA low pass filter
> > >> AND when I am fast forwarding in xmms. When I don't use fast forwarding,
> > >> everything works fine. But I will try use_system_timer=1 when I get back
> > >> from work today.
> > >> It really seems like the plug-in is doing some weird stuff.
> > > 
> > > But the plugin itself cannot lead to a system crash.  It's the driver.
> > > 
> > > Do I understand correctly that your system locks up when this happens,
> > > right?  If yes, the cause might be the mmap mode access.
> > > 
> > Yes, it locks up. No kernel panic or something like that. A "hard"
> > lock-up/freeze.
> 
> OK, this implies either a spin deadlock or a dead-end in the irq
> handler.
> 
> Anyway, please try the very latest alsa-driver-snapshot.  If it still
> doesn't work, let me know whether use_system_timer=1 works around the
> crash.  If yes, just try to comment out all spin_*() calls in
> cttimer.c.

Also, show your ~/.asoundrc setup so that I can try to reproduce
the same bug with my test machine.


thanks,

Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Gernot Kohlhaas]

Takashi Iwai schrieb:
>> Hm, please double-check later.  I really don't see any possible cause
>> of this.
Okay... Newest alsa-driver-snapshot - no change. Still got these hiccups
when compiling with --with-debug=full.

>> OK, this implies either a spin deadlock or a dead-end in the irq
>> handler.
>>
>> Anyway, please try the very latest alsa-driver-snapshot.  
Sorry... No luck... It still crashes.

>> If it still
>> doesn't work, let me know whether use_system_timer=1 works around the
>> crash.  
Yes! With use_system_timer everything works fine!

>> If yes, just try to comment out all spin_*() calls in
>> cttimer.c.
Sorry... Still crashes. Only use_system_timer worked so far...

> Also, show your ~/.asoundrc setup so that I can try to reproduce
> the same bug with my test machine.
Here it is:
pcm.xfi
{
        type hw
        card 0
  channels 6
}

ctl.xfi
{
        type hw
        card 0
}

pcm.ch51dup {
         slave.pcm "plug:lowpass51"
         slave.channels 6
         type route
         ttable.0.0 1
         ttable.1.1 1
         ttable.0.2 1
         ttable.1.3 1
         ttable.0.4 0.5
         ttable.1.4 0.5
         ttable.0.5 1
         ttable.1.5 1
}

pcm.lowpass51 {
    type ladspa
    slave.pcm default
    path "/usr/lib/ladspa"
    plugins {
        0 {
            id 1098 # Identity (Audio) (1098/identity_audio)
            policy duplicate
            input.bindings.0 "Input";
            output.bindings.0 "Output";
        }

        1 {
            id 1672
            policy none
            input.bindings.5 "Input";
            output.bindings.5 "Output";
            input {
                controls [ 120 2 ]
            }
        }
    }
}

Thanks!

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Key: http://home.arcor.de/mr_maniac/ANDERES/public.gpg

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:11:02 +0200,
Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
> 
> > Also, show your ~/.asoundrc setup so that I can try to reproduce
> > the same bug with my test machine.
> Here it is:

Thanks, I could reproduce the problem now with your setup.
This is indeed a deadlock but in a different place due to the invalid
update of PCM substream.  I fixed it now.
Try the very latest alsa-driver-snapshot.


Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Gernot Kohlhaas]

Takashi Iwai schrieb:
> At Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:11:02 +0200,
> Gernot Kohlhaas wrote:
>>> Also, show your ~/.asoundrc setup so that I can try to reproduce
>>> the same bug with my test machine.
>> Here it is:
> 
> Thanks, I could reproduce the problem now with your setup.
> This is indeed a deadlock but in a different place due to the invalid
> update of PCM substream.  I fixed it now.
> Try the very latest alsa-driver-snapshot.
> 
> 
> Takashi
> 


ALSA /usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/ctatc.c:1252: ctxfi: chip 20K1 model
Unknown (1102:002c) is found
SB-XFi 0000:05:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
ALSA
/usr/src/alsa-driver/pci/ctxfi/../../alsa-kernel/pci/ctxfi/cttimer.c:424:
ctxfi: Use xfi-native timer

No crashes. Everything's running fine now :)
Thank you very much!

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Key ID: 0x4C0B2250
Key: http://home.arcor.de/mr_maniac/ANDERES/public.gpg

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Bjoern Olausson]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 18:17, Gernot
Kohlhaas<gernot.kohlhaas@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> No crashes. Everything's running fine now :)
> Thank you very much!
>

Just want to confirm that my card (listed below) works so far (with
2.6.31-rc1-git3)

On the first module load I got a mesage (I can't remember exactly)
something like that:
"XFI" "??" "  " ""
Unknown hardware... and something with initialization method, but I
could'nt reproduce this message.

But the first tests with aplay (using all sorts of samplerates) were promising!

01:00.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB X-Fi
        Subsystem: Creative Labs X-Fi Platinum
        Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop-
ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx-
        Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=medium
>TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- >SERR- <PERR- INTx-
        Latency: 64 (1000ns min, 1250ns max), Cache Line Size: 16
bytes
        Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 11
        Region 0: I/O ports at 8c00 [size=32]
        Region 1: Memory at eb800000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable)
[size=2M]
        Region 3: Memory at e4000000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable)
[size=64M]
        Capabilities: [40] Power Management version 2
                Flags: PMEClk- DSI+ D1+ D2+ AuxCurrent=0mA
PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
                Status: D0 PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
        Capabilities: [50] Message Signalled Interrupts: Mask- 64bit+
Count=1/1 Enable-
                Address: 0000000000000000  Data: 0000

01:00.0 0401: 1102:0005
        Subsystem: 1102:0021
        Control: I/O+ Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop-
ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx-
        Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=medium
>TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- >SERR- <PERR- INTx-
        Latency: 64 (1000ns min, 1250ns max), Cache Line Size: 16
bytes
        Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 11
        Region 0: I/O ports at 8c00 [size=32]
        Region 1: Memory at eb800000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable)
[size=2M]
        Region 3: Memory at e4000000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable)
[size=64M]
        Capabilities: [40] Power Management version 2
                Flags: PMEClk- DSI+ D1+ D2+ AuxCurrent=0mA
PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
                Status: D0 PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
        Capabilities: [50] Message Signalled Interrupts: Mask- 64bit+
Count=1/1 Enable-
                Address: 0000000000000000  Data: 0000

Thanks a lot

kind regrads
Bjoern

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Lee Revell]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Takashi Iwai<tiwai@suse.de> wrote:
>> Anyway, please try the very latest alsa-driver-snapshot.  If it still
>> doesn't work, let me know whether use_system_timer=1 works around the
>> crash.  If yes, just try to comment out all spin_*() calls in
>> cttimer.c.
>
> Also, show your ~/.asoundrc setup so that I can try to reproduce
> the same bug with my test machine.

Just curious, has anyone tested the driver with a DEBUG_PREEMPT and/or
lockdep kernel?  The Creative people definitely didn't ;-)

Lee

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Sebastian Schneider]

I get lockups or something else with the driver. When I run mplayer and maybe youtube or amarok or something else which gives out any sounds, then I can only use the ALT+SUB combination to reboot my computer. I'm using the snapshot you recommend 2 days ago.
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Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:21:01 +0200,
Sebastian Schneider wrote:
> 
> I get lockups or something else with the driver. When I run mplayer and maybe youtube or amarok or something else which gives out any sounds, then I can only use the ALT+SUB combination to reboot my computer. I'm using the snapshot you recommend 2 days ago.

Two days ago is pretty old...


Takashi

Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Sebastian Schneider]

I know it is pretty old, but with the ctxfi driver, I can't use the init.d scripts. I can load this driver only when I'm booting my gentoo system. Otherwise I get "ctxfi - module not found".


-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:33:22 +0200
> Von: Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de>
> An: "Sebastian Schneider" <Sebastian.Brian@gmx.de>
> CC: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> Betreff: Re: [alsa-devel] SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted:	New	SB	X-Fi	driver)

> At Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:21:01 +0200,
> Sebastian Schneider wrote:
> > 
> > I get lockups or something else with the driver. When I run mplayer and
> maybe youtube or amarok or something else which gives out any sounds, then
> I can only use the ALT+SUB combination to reboot my computer. I'm using the
> snapshot you recommend 2 days ago.
> 
> Two days ago is pretty old...
> 
> 
> Takashi
> _______________________________________________
> Alsa-devel mailing list
> Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel

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Re: SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted: New SB X-Fi driver)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:02:30 +0200,
Sebastian Schneider wrote:
> 
> I know it is pretty old, but with the ctxfi driver, I can't use the
> init.d scripts. I can load this driver only when I'm booting my
> gentoo system. Otherwise I get "ctxfi - module not found".

There is no ctxfi driver, but snd-ctxfi.

Takashi


> 
> 
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > Datum: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:33:22 +0200
> > Von: Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de>
> > An: "Sebastian Schneider" <Sebastian.Brian@gmx.de>
> > CC: alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> > Betreff: Re: [alsa-devel] SB X-Fi driver fixes (Re: Testers wanted:	New	SB	X-Fi	driver)
> 
> > At Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:21:01 +0200,
> > Sebastian Schneider wrote:
> > > 
> > > I get lockups or something else with the driver. When I run mplayer and
> > maybe youtube or amarok or something else which gives out any sounds, then
> > I can only use the ALT+SUB combination to reboot my computer. I'm using the
> > snapshot you recommend 2 days ago.
> > 
> > Two days ago is pretty old...
> > 
> > 
> > Takashi
> > _______________________________________________
> > Alsa-devel mailing list
> > Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> > http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
> 
> -- 
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> _______________________________________________
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> Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> http://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
>