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* AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA
@ 2010-06-23 16:40 rmfc
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: rmfc @ 2010-06-23 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: clemens; +Cc: alsa-devel

Hello,
I'm looking for a sound card that can be used to speech recognition in 
noisy environments. The best device that I found so far is 
AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA but unfortunately it isn't properly 
supported in Linux. The device is recognized as an USB Audio device 
(module used is snd_usb_audio) and I can record audio in Audacity. The 
problem is that none of advanced DSP features is enabled.
I tried then Asus Xonar U1 but the problem is the same, no configuration 
is done in devices, so they record audio without quality to be used in a 
speech recognizer (not enough energy, audio DC components when software 
gain is applied in Sound Preferences...).

Is there any way known way to configure a USB Audio device? If I have to 
implement some code, where should I start?
I send you output of  "lsusb" of AndreaElectronics USB-SA sound card.

------------------------------------------------------------
Bus 003 Device 002: ID 08a8:000c Andrea Electronics
Device Descriptor:
   bLength                18
   bDescriptorType         1
   bcdUSB               1.10
   bDeviceClass            0 (Defined at Interface level)
   bDeviceSubClass         0
   bDeviceProtocol         0
   bMaxPacketSize0        64
   idVendor           0x08a8 Andrea Electronics
   idProduct          0x000c
   bcdDevice            1.00
   iManufacturer           3 Andrea Electronics
   iProduct                1 Andrea PureAudio USB-SA
   iSerial                 0
   bNumConfigurations      1
   Configuration Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         2
     wTotalLength          293
     bNumInterfaces          4
     bConfigurationValue     1
     iConfiguration          0
     bmAttributes         0x80
       (Bus Powered)
     MaxPower              500mA
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        0
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           0
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      1 Control Device
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (HEADER)
         bcdADC               1.00
         wTotalLength          128
         bInCollection           2
         baInterfaceNr( 0)       1
         baInterfaceNr( 1)       2
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             1
         wTerminalType      0x0101 USB Streaming
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             2
         wTerminalType      0x0201 Microphone
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             3
         wTerminalType      0x0603 Line Connector
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             4
         wTerminalType      0x0605 SPDIF interface
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      3 (OUTPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             6
         wTerminalType      0x0301 Speaker
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bSourceID               9
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      3 (OUTPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             7
         wTerminalType      0x0101 USB Streaming
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bSourceID               8
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      5 (SELECTOR_UNIT)
         bUnitID                 8
         bNrInPins               3
         baSource( 0)           10
         baSource( 1)           11
         baSource( 2)           12
         iSelector               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                13
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                 9
         bSourceID               1
         bControlSize            2
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
         bmaControls( 0)      0x02
           Mute
           Loudness
         bmaControls( 1)      0x02
         bmaControls( 1)      0x00
           Volume
         bmaControls( 2)      0x02
         bmaControls( 2)      0x00
           Volume
         iFeature                0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                10
         bSourceID               2
         bControlSize            1
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
           Mute
         bmaControls( 1)      0x02
           Volume
         bmaControls( 2)      0x02
           Volume
         iFeature                0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                11
         bSourceID               3
         bControlSize            1
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
           Mute
         bmaControls( 1)      0x02
           Volume
         bmaControls( 2)      0x02
           Volume
         iFeature                0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                12
         bSourceID               4
         bControlSize            1
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
           Mute
         bmaControls( 1)      0x00
         bmaControls( 2)      0x00
         iFeature                0
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        1
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           0
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        1
       bAlternateSetting       1
       bNumEndpoints           1
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 7
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (AS_GENERAL)
         bTerminalLink           1
         bDelay                  1 frames
         wFormatTag              1 PCM
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                20
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
         bFormatType             1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
         bNrChannels             2
         bSubframeSize           2
         bBitResolution         16
         bSamFreqType            4 Discrete
         tSamFreq[ 0]         8000
         tSamFreq[ 1]        16000
         tSamFreq[ 2]        44100
         tSamFreq[ 3]        48000
       Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType         5
         bEndpointAddress     0x01  EP 1 OUT
         bmAttributes            9
           Transfer Type            Isochronous
           Synch Type               Adaptive
           Usage Type               Data
         wMaxPacketSize     0x00c8  1x 200 bytes
         bInterval               1
         bRefresh                0
         bSynchAddress           0
         AudioControl Endpoint Descriptor:
           bLength                 7
           bDescriptorType        37
           bDescriptorSubtype      1 (EP_GENERAL)
           bmAttributes         0x01
             Sampling Frequency
           bLockDelayUnits         1 Milliseconds
           wLockDelay              1 Milliseconds
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        2
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           0
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        2
       bAlternateSetting       1
       bNumEndpoints           1
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 7
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (AS_GENERAL)
         bTerminalLink           7
         bDelay                  1 frames
         wFormatTag              1 PCM
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                20
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
         bFormatType             1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
         bNrChannels             2
         bSubframeSize           2
         bBitResolution         16
         bSamFreqType            4 Discrete
         tSamFreq[ 0]         8000
         tSamFreq[ 1]        16000
         tSamFreq[ 2]        44100
         tSamFreq[ 3]        48000
       Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType         5
         bEndpointAddress     0x82  EP 2 IN
         bmAttributes            5
           Transfer Type            Isochronous
           Synch Type               Asynchronous
           Usage Type               Data
         wMaxPacketSize     0x00c8  1x 200 bytes
         bInterval               1
         bRefresh                0
         bSynchAddress           0
         AudioControl Endpoint Descriptor:
           bLength                 7
           bDescriptorType        37
           bDescriptorSubtype      1 (EP_GENERAL)
           bmAttributes         0x01
             Sampling Frequency
           bLockDelayUnits         0 Undefined
           wLockDelay              0 Undefined
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        3
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           1
       bInterfaceClass         3 Human Interface Device
       bInterfaceSubClass      0 No Subclass
       bInterfaceProtocol      0 None
       iInterface              0
         HID Device Descriptor:
           bLength                 9
           bDescriptorType        33
           bcdHID               1.00
           bCountryCode            0 Not supported
           bNumDescriptors         1
           bDescriptorType        34 Report
           wDescriptorLength      50
          Report Descriptors:
            ** UNAVAILABLE **
       Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 7
         bDescriptorType         5
         bEndpointAddress     0x87  EP 7 IN
         bmAttributes            3
           Transfer Type            Interrupt
           Synch Type               None
           Usage Type               Data
         wMaxPacketSize     0x0010  1x 16 bytes
         bInterval               1
Device Status:     0x0000
   (Bus Powered)
------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks for any help that you can give me.
Renato

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread

* AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA
@ 2010-06-24 23:11 rmfc
  2010-06-25  8:25 ` Clemens Ladisch
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 3+ messages in thread
From: rmfc @ 2010-06-24 23:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: alsa-devel

Hello all,
I'm trying to use any USB sound card with some DSP processing that 
allows a microphone array to capture audio and use in speech recognition 
(mostly applied in noisy environments). The best device that I found so 
far is AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA but unfortunately it isn't 
properly supported in Linux/Alsa. The device is recognized as an USB 
Audio device (snd_usb_audio) and I can record audio in Audacity. The 
problem is that none of DSP features is explicitly activated in USB 
configuration so it works almost like any other microphone.
I then tried Asus Xonar U1 but the problem is the same, no configuration 
is done in such devices, so they record audio without enough quality to 
be used by a speech recognizer (not enough energy, audio DC components 
when software gain is applied in Sound Preferences...).

Is there any way to configure an USB Audio device interfaces?

Here's the output of  "lsusb" of AndreaElectronics USB-SA sound card.

------------------------------------------------------------
Bus 003 Device 002: ID 08a8:000c Andrea Electronics
Device Descriptor:
   bLength                18
   bDescriptorType         1
   bcdUSB               1.10
   bDeviceClass            0 (Defined at Interface level)
   bDeviceSubClass         0
   bDeviceProtocol         0
   bMaxPacketSize0        64
   idVendor           0x08a8 Andrea Electronics
   idProduct          0x000c
   bcdDevice            1.00
   iManufacturer           3 Andrea Electronics
   iProduct                1 Andrea PureAudio USB-SA
   iSerial                 0
   bNumConfigurations      1
   Configuration Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         2
     wTotalLength          293
     bNumInterfaces          4
     bConfigurationValue     1
     iConfiguration          0
     bmAttributes         0x80
       (Bus Powered)
     MaxPower              500mA
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        0
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           0
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      1 Control Device
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (HEADER)
         bcdADC               1.00
         wTotalLength          128
         bInCollection           2
         baInterfaceNr( 0)       1
         baInterfaceNr( 1)       2
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             1
         wTerminalType      0x0101 USB Streaming
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             2
         wTerminalType      0x0201 Microphone
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             3
         wTerminalType      0x0603 Line Connector
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                12
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             4
         wTerminalType      0x0605 SPDIF interface
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bNrChannels             2
         wChannelConfig     0x0003
           Left Front (L)
           Right Front (R)
         iChannelNames           0
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      3 (OUTPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             6
         wTerminalType      0x0301 Speaker
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bSourceID               9
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      3 (OUTPUT_TERMINAL)
         bTerminalID             7
         wTerminalType      0x0101 USB Streaming
         bAssocTerminal          0
         bSourceID               8
         iTerminal               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      5 (SELECTOR_UNIT)
         bUnitID                 8
         bNrInPins               3
         baSource( 0)           10
         baSource( 1)           11
         baSource( 2)           12
         iSelector               0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                13
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                 9
         bSourceID               1
         bControlSize            2
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
         bmaControls( 0)      0x02
           Mute
           Loudness
         bmaControls( 1)      0x02
         bmaControls( 1)      0x00
           Volume
         bmaControls( 2)      0x02
         bmaControls( 2)      0x00
           Volume
         iFeature                0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                10
         bSourceID               2
         bControlSize            1
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
           Mute
         bmaControls( 1)      0x02
           Volume
         bmaControls( 2)      0x02
           Volume
         iFeature                0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                11
         bSourceID               3
         bControlSize            1
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
           Mute
         bmaControls( 1)      0x02
           Volume
         bmaControls( 2)      0x02
           Volume
         iFeature                0
       AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                10
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      6 (FEATURE_UNIT)
         bUnitID                12
         bSourceID               4
         bControlSize            1
         bmaControls( 0)      0x01
           Mute
         bmaControls( 1)      0x00
         bmaControls( 2)      0x00
         iFeature                0
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        1
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           0
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        1
       bAlternateSetting       1
       bNumEndpoints           1
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 7
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (AS_GENERAL)
         bTerminalLink           1
         bDelay                  1 frames
         wFormatTag              1 PCM
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                20
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
         bFormatType             1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
         bNrChannels             2
         bSubframeSize           2
         bBitResolution         16
         bSamFreqType            4 Discrete
         tSamFreq[ 0]         8000
         tSamFreq[ 1]        16000
         tSamFreq[ 2]        44100
         tSamFreq[ 3]        48000
       Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType         5
         bEndpointAddress     0x01  EP 1 OUT
         bmAttributes            9
           Transfer Type            Isochronous
           Synch Type               Adaptive
           Usage Type               Data
         wMaxPacketSize     0x00c8  1x 200 bytes
         bInterval               1
         bRefresh                0
         bSynchAddress           0
         AudioControl Endpoint Descriptor:
           bLength                 7
           bDescriptorType        37
           bDescriptorSubtype      1 (EP_GENERAL)
           bmAttributes         0x01
             Sampling Frequency
           bLockDelayUnits         1 Milliseconds
           wLockDelay              1 Milliseconds
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        2
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           0
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        2
       bAlternateSetting       1
       bNumEndpoints           1
       bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
       bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
       bInterfaceProtocol      0
       iInterface              0
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                 7
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (AS_GENERAL)
         bTerminalLink           7
         bDelay                  1 frames
         wFormatTag              1 PCM
       AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
         bLength                20
         bDescriptorType        36
         bDescriptorSubtype      2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
         bFormatType             1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
         bNrChannels             2
         bSubframeSize           2
         bBitResolution         16
         bSamFreqType            4 Discrete
         tSamFreq[ 0]         8000
         tSamFreq[ 1]        16000
         tSamFreq[ 2]        44100
         tSamFreq[ 3]        48000
       Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType         5
         bEndpointAddress     0x82  EP 2 IN
         bmAttributes            5
           Transfer Type            Isochronous
           Synch Type               Asynchronous
           Usage Type               Data
         wMaxPacketSize     0x00c8  1x 200 bytes
         bInterval               1
         bRefresh                0
         bSynchAddress           0
         AudioControl Endpoint Descriptor:
           bLength                 7
           bDescriptorType        37
           bDescriptorSubtype      1 (EP_GENERAL)
           bmAttributes         0x01
             Sampling Frequency
           bLockDelayUnits         0 Undefined
           wLockDelay              0 Undefined
     Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType         4
       bInterfaceNumber        3
       bAlternateSetting       0
       bNumEndpoints           1
       bInterfaceClass         3 Human Interface Device
       bInterfaceSubClass      0 No Subclass
       bInterfaceProtocol      0 None
       iInterface              0
         HID Device Descriptor:
           bLength                 9
           bDescriptorType        33
           bcdHID               1.00
           bCountryCode            0 Not supported
           bNumDescriptors         1
           bDescriptorType        34 Report
           wDescriptorLength      50
          Report Descriptors:
            ** UNAVAILABLE **
       Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 7
         bDescriptorType         5
         bEndpointAddress     0x87  EP 7 IN
         bmAttributes            3
           Transfer Type            Interrupt
           Synch Type               None
           Usage Type               Data
         wMaxPacketSize     0x0010  1x 16 bytes
         bInterval               1
Device Status:     0x0000
   (Bus Powered)
------------------------------------------------------------


Renato

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread

* Re: AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA
  2010-06-24 23:11 AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA rmfc
@ 2010-06-25  8:25 ` Clemens Ladisch
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Clemens Ladisch @ 2010-06-25  8:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: rmfc; +Cc: alsa-devel

rmfc wrote:
> I'm trying to use any USB sound card with some DSP processing that
> allows a microphone array to capture audio and use in speech recognition
> (mostly applied in noisy environments). The best device that I found so
> far is AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA but unfortunately it isn't
> properly supported in Linux/Alsa. The device is recognized as an USB
> Audio device (snd_usb_audio) and I can record audio in Audacity. The
> problem is that none of DSP features is explicitly activated in USB
> configuration so it works almost like any other microphone.
> I then tried Asus Xonar U1 but the problem is the same, no configuration
> is done in such devices, so they record audio without enough quality to
> be used by a speech recognizer (not enough energy, audio DC components
> when software gain is applied in Sound Preferences...).

Neither of these device has a DSP; any processing is done in software
in the Windows driver.


Regards,
Clemens

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2010-06-25  8:25 UTC | newest]

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2010-06-24 23:11 AndreaElectronics PureAudio USB-SA rmfc
2010-06-25  8:25 ` Clemens Ladisch
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2010-06-23 16:40 rmfc

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