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From: Avi Kivity <avi@redhat.com>
To: Anthony Liguori <anthony@codemonkey.ws>
Cc: qemu-devel <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>,
	Rusty Russell <rusty@ozlabs.org>, KVM list <kvm@vger.kernel.org>,
	Gleb Natapov <gleb@redhat.com>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC] Next gen kvm api
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:34:49 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4F3D5A59.20803@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4F3D16BB.5060804@codemonkey.ws>

On 02/16/2012 04:46 PM, Anthony Liguori wrote:
>> What will it buy us? Surely not speed. Entering a guest is not much
>> (if at all) faster than exiting to userspace and any non trivial
>> operation will require exit to userspace anyway,
>
>
> You can emulate the PIT/RTC entirely within the guest using kvmclock
> which doesn't require an additional exit to get the current time base.
>
> So instead of:
>
> 1) guest -> host kernel
> 2) host kernel -> userspace
> 3) implement logic using rdtscp via VDSO
> 4) userspace -> host kernel
> 5) host kernel -> guest
>
> You go:
>
> 1) guest -> host kernel
> 2) host kernel -> guest (with special CR3)
> 3) implement logic using rdtscp + kvmclock page
> 4) change CR3 within guest and RETI to VMEXIT source RIP
>
> Same basic concept as PS/2 emulation with SMM.

Interesting, but unimplementable in practice.  SMM requires a VMEXIT for
RSM, and anything non-SMM wants a virtual address mapping (and some RAM)
which you can't get without guest cooperation.  There are other
complications like an NMI interrupting hypervisor-provided code and
finding unexpected addresses on its stack (SMM at least blocks NMIs).

Tangentially related, Intel introduced a VMFUNC that allows you to
change the guest's physical memory map to a pre-set alternative provided
by the host, without a VMEXIT.  Seems similar to SMM but requires guest
cooperation.  I guess it's for unintrusive virus scanners and the like.

-- 
I have a truly marvellous patch that fixes the bug which this
signature is too narrow to contain.

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Avi Kivity <avi@redhat.com>
To: Anthony Liguori <anthony@codemonkey.ws>
Cc: Gleb Natapov <gleb@redhat.com>, KVM list <kvm@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Rusty Russell <rusty@ozlabs.org>,
	qemu-devel <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>
Subject: Re: [Qemu-devel] [RFC] Next gen kvm api
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:34:49 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4F3D5A59.20803@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4F3D16BB.5060804@codemonkey.ws>

On 02/16/2012 04:46 PM, Anthony Liguori wrote:
>> What will it buy us? Surely not speed. Entering a guest is not much
>> (if at all) faster than exiting to userspace and any non trivial
>> operation will require exit to userspace anyway,
>
>
> You can emulate the PIT/RTC entirely within the guest using kvmclock
> which doesn't require an additional exit to get the current time base.
>
> So instead of:
>
> 1) guest -> host kernel
> 2) host kernel -> userspace
> 3) implement logic using rdtscp via VDSO
> 4) userspace -> host kernel
> 5) host kernel -> guest
>
> You go:
>
> 1) guest -> host kernel
> 2) host kernel -> guest (with special CR3)
> 3) implement logic using rdtscp + kvmclock page
> 4) change CR3 within guest and RETI to VMEXIT source RIP
>
> Same basic concept as PS/2 emulation with SMM.

Interesting, but unimplementable in practice.  SMM requires a VMEXIT for
RSM, and anything non-SMM wants a virtual address mapping (and some RAM)
which you can't get without guest cooperation.  There are other
complications like an NMI interrupting hypervisor-provided code and
finding unexpected addresses on its stack (SMM at least blocks NMIs).

Tangentially related, Intel introduced a VMFUNC that allows you to
change the guest's physical memory map to a pre-set alternative provided
by the host, without a VMEXIT.  Seems similar to SMM but requires guest
cooperation.  I guess it's for unintrusive virus scanners and the like.

-- 
I have a truly marvellous patch that fixes the bug which this
signature is too narrow to contain.


WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Avi Kivity <avi@redhat.com>
To: Anthony Liguori <anthony@codemonkey.ws>
Cc: qemu-devel <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>,
	Rusty Russell <rusty@ozlabs.org>, KVM list <kvm@vger.kernel.org>,
	Gleb Natapov <gleb@redhat.com>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [Qemu-devel] [RFC] Next gen kvm api
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:34:49 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4F3D5A59.20803@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4F3D16BB.5060804@codemonkey.ws>

On 02/16/2012 04:46 PM, Anthony Liguori wrote:
>> What will it buy us? Surely not speed. Entering a guest is not much
>> (if at all) faster than exiting to userspace and any non trivial
>> operation will require exit to userspace anyway,
>
>
> You can emulate the PIT/RTC entirely within the guest using kvmclock
> which doesn't require an additional exit to get the current time base.
>
> So instead of:
>
> 1) guest -> host kernel
> 2) host kernel -> userspace
> 3) implement logic using rdtscp via VDSO
> 4) userspace -> host kernel
> 5) host kernel -> guest
>
> You go:
>
> 1) guest -> host kernel
> 2) host kernel -> guest (with special CR3)
> 3) implement logic using rdtscp + kvmclock page
> 4) change CR3 within guest and RETI to VMEXIT source RIP
>
> Same basic concept as PS/2 emulation with SMM.

Interesting, but unimplementable in practice.  SMM requires a VMEXIT for
RSM, and anything non-SMM wants a virtual address mapping (and some RAM)
which you can't get without guest cooperation.  There are other
complications like an NMI interrupting hypervisor-provided code and
finding unexpected addresses on its stack (SMM at least blocks NMIs).

Tangentially related, Intel introduced a VMFUNC that allows you to
change the guest's physical memory map to a pre-set alternative provided
by the host, without a VMEXIT.  Seems similar to SMM but requires guest
cooperation.  I guess it's for unintrusive virus scanners and the like.

-- 
I have a truly marvellous patch that fixes the bug which this
signature is too narrow to contain.

  reply	other threads:[~2012-02-16 19:34 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 236+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2012-02-02 16:09 [RFC] Next gen kvm api Avi Kivity
2012-02-02 16:09 ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-02 22:13 ` Rob Earhart
2012-02-02 22:13   ` [Qemu-devel] " Rob Earhart
2012-02-02 22:16   ` Rob Earhart
2012-02-02 22:16     ` Rob Earhart
2012-02-05 13:14   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05 13:14     ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-06 17:41     ` Rob Earhart
2012-02-06 19:11       ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06 19:11         ` [Qemu-devel] " Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06 19:11         ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 12:03         ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:03           ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 15:17           ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 16:02             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 16:18               ` Jan Kiszka
2012-02-07 16:18                 ` [Qemu-devel] " Jan Kiszka
2012-02-07 16:18                 ` Jan Kiszka
2012-02-07 16:21                 ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 16:21                   ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 16:29                   ` Jan Kiszka
2012-02-07 16:29                     ` Jan Kiszka
2012-02-15 13:41                     ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:41                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 16:19               ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-15 13:47                 ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:01       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-03  2:09 ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-03  2:09   ` [Qemu-devel] " Anthony Liguori
2012-02-03  2:09   ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-04  2:08   ` Takuya Yoshikawa
2012-02-04  2:08     ` [Qemu-devel] " Takuya Yoshikawa
2012-02-04  2:08     ` Takuya Yoshikawa
2012-02-22 13:06     ` Peter Zijlstra
2012-02-22 13:06       ` Peter Zijlstra
2012-02-05  9:24   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05  9:24     ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-05  9:24     ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07  1:08   ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07  1:08     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07  1:08     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07  1:08     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 12:24     ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:24       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:24       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:51       ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 12:51         ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 12:51         ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 13:16         ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 13:16           ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 13:16           ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 13:40           ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 13:40             ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 13:40             ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 14:21             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 14:21               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 14:21               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 14:21               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 14:39               ` [Qemu-devel] " Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 14:39                 ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 14:39                 ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 11:18                 ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 11:18                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 11:18                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 11:57                   ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 11:57                     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 11:57                     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 13:29                     ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:29                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:29                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:37                       ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 13:37                         ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 13:37                         ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 13:57                         ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:57                           ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:57                           ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 14:08                           ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 14:08                             ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 14:08                             ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-16 19:24                             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:24                               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:24                               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:24                               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:34                               ` [Qemu-devel] " Alexander Graf
2012-02-16 19:34                                 ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-16 19:34                                 ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-16 19:38                                 ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:38                                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:38                                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 20:41                                   ` Scott Wood
2012-02-16 20:41                                     ` Scott Wood
2012-02-16 20:41                                     ` Scott Wood
2012-02-17  0:23                                     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-17  0:23                                       ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-17  0:23                                       ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-17 18:27                                       ` Scott Wood
2012-02-17 18:27                                         ` Scott Wood
2012-02-17 18:27                                         ` Scott Wood
2012-02-18  9:49                                     ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18  9:49                                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18  9:49                                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18  9:49                                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-17  0:19                                   ` [Qemu-devel] " Alexander Graf
2012-02-17  0:19                                     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-17  0:19                                     ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-18 10:00                                     ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18 10:00                                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18 10:00                                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18 10:00                                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18 10:43                                       ` [Qemu-devel] " Alexander Graf
2012-02-18 10:43                                         ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-18 10:43                                         ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 19:17                     ` Scott Wood
2012-02-15 19:17                       ` Scott Wood
2012-02-15 19:17                       ` Scott Wood
2012-02-12  7:10               ` Takuya Yoshikawa
2012-02-12  7:10                 ` Takuya Yoshikawa
2012-02-12  7:10                 ` Takuya Yoshikawa
2012-02-12  7:10                 ` Takuya Yoshikawa
2012-02-15 13:32                 ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:32                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:32                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 15:23             ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 15:23               ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 15:23               ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 15:28               ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 15:28                 ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 15:28                 ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-08 17:20               ` Alan Cox
2012-02-08 17:20                 ` Alan Cox
2012-02-08 17:20                 ` Alan Cox
2012-02-15 13:33               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:33                 ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:33                 ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 22:14             ` Arnd Bergmann
2012-02-15 22:14               ` Arnd Bergmann
2012-02-10  3:07   ` Jamie Lokier
2012-02-10  3:07     ` Jamie Lokier
2012-02-03 18:07 ` Eric Northup
2012-02-03 18:07   ` [Qemu-devel] " Eric Northup
2012-02-03 18:07   ` Eric Northup
2012-02-03 22:52   ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-03 22:52     ` [Qemu-devel] " Anthony Liguori
2012-02-03 22:52     ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06 19:46     ` Scott Wood
2012-02-06 19:46       ` Scott Wood
2012-02-07  6:58       ` Michael Ellerman
2012-02-07  6:58         ` [Qemu-devel] " Michael Ellerman
2012-02-07  6:58         ` Michael Ellerman
2012-02-07 10:04         ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-07 10:04           ` Alexander Graf
2012-02-15 22:21           ` Arnd Bergmann
2012-02-15 22:21             ` Arnd Bergmann
2012-02-16  1:04             ` Michael Ellerman
2012-02-16  1:04               ` [Qemu-devel] " Michael Ellerman
2012-02-16  1:04               ` Michael Ellerman
2012-02-16 19:28               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:28                 ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-17  0:09                 ` Michael Ellerman
2012-02-17  0:09                   ` [Qemu-devel] " Michael Ellerman
2012-02-17  0:09                   ` Michael Ellerman
2012-02-18 10:03                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-18 10:03                     ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-18 10:03                     ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 10:26             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 10:26               ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 10:26               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:28       ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 12:28         ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 12:40         ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:40           ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 12:51           ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 12:51             ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 13:18             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 13:18               ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 13:18               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 15:15               ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 15:15                 ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-07 18:28                 ` Chris Wright
2012-02-07 18:28                   ` Chris Wright
2012-02-08 17:02         ` Scott Wood
2012-02-08 17:02           ` Scott Wood
2012-02-08 17:12           ` Alan Cox
2012-02-08 17:12             ` [Qemu-devel] " Alan Cox
2012-02-08 17:12             ` Alan Cox
2012-02-05  9:37 ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05  9:37   ` [Qemu-devel] " Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05  9:37   ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05  9:44   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05  9:44     ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-05  9:44     ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05  9:51     ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05  9:51       ` [Qemu-devel] " Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05  9:51       ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05  9:56       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05  9:56         ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-05  9:56         ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05 10:58         ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05 10:58           ` [Qemu-devel] " Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05 10:58           ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-05 13:16           ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05 13:16             ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-05 13:16             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-05 16:36       ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-05 16:36         ` [Qemu-devel] " Anthony Liguori
2012-02-05 16:36         ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06  9:34         ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-06  9:34           ` [Qemu-devel] " Avi Kivity
2012-02-06  9:34           ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-06 13:33           ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06 13:33             ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06 13:54             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-06 13:54               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-06 14:00               ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06 14:00                 ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-06 14:08                 ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-06 14:08                   ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-07 18:12           ` Rusty Russell
2012-02-07 18:12             ` [Qemu-devel] " Rusty Russell
2012-02-07 18:12             ` Rusty Russell
2012-02-15 13:39             ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 13:39               ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 21:59               ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-15 21:59                 ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-16  8:57                 ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-16  8:57                   ` [Qemu-devel] " Gleb Natapov
2012-02-16  8:57                   ` Gleb Natapov
2012-02-16 14:46                   ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-16 14:46                     ` Anthony Liguori
2012-02-16 19:34                     ` Avi Kivity [this message]
2012-02-16 19:34                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-16 19:34                       ` Avi Kivity
2012-02-15 23:08               ` Rusty Russell
2012-02-15 23:08                 ` [Qemu-devel] " Rusty Russell
2012-02-15 23:08                 ` Rusty Russell

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