Mixing WD red with older seagates

Mixing WD red with older seagates

[Timothy D. Lenz]

well, another drive going down. This time sdc. I have a vdr system with 
2 pairs of seagate 500Gb drives set up as mirrors. a/b are boot, swap, 
and data. c/d are single partition data. I have done at least 4 rma's on 
these drives and warranty was nearly up on the last one to go down just 
6 months ago. So warranty or not, I'm done with seagate. I only have 
about $100 saved up (was saving for something else:( ). I'd like to get 
a WD red 1Tb drive and set it up to act as a 3rd for a/b and replace sdc 
mirroring sdd. Then at some point remove sda or b (maybe in another 6 
months when one of them goes).

I read that the red line WD's had some problems with the 1Gb drives when 
they first come out. Anyone get any lately know if they are reliable 
now? Also, any problems pairing one of these with the seagates?

Any red flags in these that will cause problems? I have to refigure all 
this stuff out each time.

------------------------------------------------
menu.lst: http://pastebin.com/7WWHajsc
------------------------------------------------
device.map:

(fd0)    /dev/fd0
(hd0)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500413AS_Z3T69GCE
(hd1)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500418AS_5VMJ49P1
(hd2)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500320AS_9QM35MY5
(hd3)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500820AS_9QM6V6JF
------------------------------------------------
I know there was some command to auto update device.map, but I forget 
what it was.

Re: Mixing WD red with older seagates

[Tudor Holton]

Completely anecdotal evidence, but I was mixing WD Reds and Seagates in 
a QNAP RAID 6 each 3TB for a total of 6TB, and the Seagates kept making 
sounds like they were about to hurl.  Testing each drive individually 
with badblocks and smart came up with all drives OK.  But it kept 
chucking the WDs one by one.  Eventually I removed the Seagates and 
replaced them with WDs and since then no drives have been thrown out.

I can only theorise that there may be a timing issue between WD Reds and 
Seagate.

On 09/09/13 13:41, Timothy D. Lenz wrote:
> well, another drive going down. This time sdc. I have a vdr system 
> with 2 pairs of seagate 500Gb drives set up as mirrors. a/b are boot, 
> swap, and data. c/d are single partition data. I have done at least 4 
> rma's on these drives and warranty was nearly up on the last one to go 
> down just 6 months ago. So warranty or not, I'm done with seagate. I 
> only have about $100 saved up (was saving for something else:( ). I'd 
> like to get a WD red 1Tb drive and set it up to act as a 3rd for a/b 
> and replace sdc mirroring sdd. Then at some point remove sda or b 
> (maybe in another 6 months when one of them goes).
>
> I read that the red line WD's had some problems with the 1Gb drives 
> when they first come out. Anyone get any lately know if they are 
> reliable now? Also, any problems pairing one of these with the seagates?
>
> Any red flags in these that will cause problems? I have to refigure 
> all this stuff out each time.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> menu.lst: http://pastebin.com/7WWHajsc
> ------------------------------------------------
> device.map:
>
> (fd0)    /dev/fd0
> (hd0)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500413AS_Z3T69GCE
> (hd1)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500418AS_5VMJ49P1
> (hd2)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500320AS_9QM35MY5
> (hd3)    /dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST3500820AS_9QM6V6JF
> ------------------------------------------------
> I know there was some command to auto update device.map, but I forget 
> what it was.
> -- 
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-raid" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: Mixing WD red with older seagates

[Jonathan Wilson]

On Mon, 2013-09-09 at 13:50 +1000, Tudor Holton wrote:
> Completely anecdotal evidence, but I was mixing WD Reds and Seagates in 
> a QNAP RAID 6 each 3TB for a total of 6TB, and the Seagates kept making 
> sounds like they were about to hurl.  Testing each drive individually 
> with badblocks and smart came up with all drives OK.  But it kept 
> chucking the WDs one by one.  Eventually I removed the Seagates and 
> replaced them with WDs and since then no drives have been thrown out.
> 
> I can only theorise that there may be a timing issue between WD Reds and 
> Seagate.

I wonder if the vibrations of the Seagates was causing the reds to be
thrown?

From what I've read (assuming I understand correctly) they are a low-ish
vibration drive with some fancy head positioning for alignment... but
should be limited to 5 at most, or at least are intended for upto 5
drive systems, so I wonder if this means that more than 5 could suffer
from vibrations throwing disks out?

All that said, I wonder just how sensitive drives are nowadays? While I
have heard of tales of old where someone sneezing in the computer room
would cause large raid clusters to pop I don't know how true they are or
how sensitive drives are to the accumulative vibrations of many disks or
if its more of a case that as the number of disks increases then the
statistical chance of a drive failing increases to the point that it is
more likely to happen in coincidence with an external event, such as a
sneeze.
  

Re: Mixing WD red with older seagates

[Mathias Burén]

On 9 September 2013 15:38, Jonathan Wilson <piercing_male@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2013-09-09 at 13:50 +1000, Tudor Holton wrote:
>> Completely anecdotal evidence, but I was mixing WD Reds and Seagates in
>> a QNAP RAID 6 each 3TB for a total of 6TB, and the Seagates kept making
>> sounds like they were about to hurl.  Testing each drive individually
>> with badblocks and smart came up with all drives OK.  But it kept
>> chucking the WDs one by one.  Eventually I removed the Seagates and
>> replaced them with WDs and since then no drives have been thrown out.
>>
>> I can only theorise that there may be a timing issue between WD Reds and
>> Seagate.
>
> I wonder if the vibrations of the Seagates was causing the reds to be
> thrown?
>
> From what I've read (assuming I understand correctly) they are a low-ish
> vibration drive with some fancy head positioning for alignment... but
> should be limited to 5 at most, or at least are intended for upto 5
> drive systems, so I wonder if this means that more than 5 could suffer
> from vibrations throwing disks out?
>
> All that said, I wonder just how sensitive drives are nowadays? While I
> have heard of tales of old where someone sneezing in the computer room
> would cause large raid clusters to pop I don't know how true they are or
> how sensitive drives are to the accumulative vibrations of many disks or
> if its more of a case that as the number of disks increases then the
> statistical chance of a drive failing increases to the point that it is
> more likely to happen in coincidence with an external event, such as a
> sneeze.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-raid" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html


The sneeze story isn't true. Modern enterprise are sensitive, for
example some 24k RPM fans will cause drives to fail within time, but
12k fans won't (40mm).

However, if your room and your servers are normal, you've nothing to
worry about.

Mathias

Re: Mixing WD red with older seagates

[Timothy D. Lenz]

On 9/9/2013 7:56 AM, Mathias Burén wrote:
> On 9 September 2013 15:38, Jonathan Wilson <piercing_male@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2013-09-09 at 13:50 +1000, Tudor Holton wrote:
>>> Completely anecdotal evidence, but I was mixing WD Reds and Seagates in
>>> a QNAP RAID 6 each 3TB for a total of 6TB, and the Seagates kept making
>>> sounds like they were about to hurl.  Testing each drive individually
>>> with badblocks and smart came up with all drives OK.  But it kept
>>> chucking the WDs one by one.  Eventually I removed the Seagates and
>>> replaced them with WDs and since then no drives have been thrown out.
>>>
>>> I can only theorise that there may be a timing issue between WD Reds and
>>> Seagate.
>>
>> I wonder if the vibrations of the Seagates was causing the reds to be
>> thrown?
>>
>>  From what I've read (assuming I understand correctly) they are a low-ish
>> vibration drive with some fancy head positioning for alignment... but
>> should be limited to 5 at most, or at least are intended for upto 5
>> drive systems, so I wonder if this means that more than 5 could suffer
>> from vibrations throwing disks out?
>>
>> All that said, I wonder just how sensitive drives are nowadays? While I
>> have heard of tales of old where someone sneezing in the computer room
>> would cause large raid clusters to pop I don't know how true they are or
>> how sensitive drives are to the accumulative vibrations of many disks or
>> if its more of a case that as the number of disks increases then the
>> statistical chance of a drive failing increases to the point that it is
>> more likely to happen in coincidence with an external event, such as a
>> sneeze.
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-raid" in
>> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>
>
> The sneeze story isn't true. Modern enterprise are sensitive, for
> example some 24k RPM fans will cause drives to fail within time, but
> 12k fans won't (40mm).
>
> However, if your room and your servers are normal, you've nothing to
> worry about.
>
> Mathias
> --

Sounds like what you guys are saying is that if I switch to the red, I 
need to replace all the seagate drives?

And it kind of sounds like they are overly touchy. I would expect them 
to be more immune to vibrations.

What I have is a 7' rack cabinet with a 2500w rack mount ups near the 
bottom. Above that a bit of space followed by a KBM switch and network 
switch. Then an HP laser printer on rails to pull it out for easier use. 
Above that a 4u case with my main computer which has 4 wd drives, ( 2 
160Gb and a 500Gb). Right above that is the linux vdr computer with the 
raid seagate drives.

And after mdadm fails a drive, it is bad. SMART and other programs 
report it so. mdadm hasn't failed this one yet, but it is just a matter 
of time. I get daily messages about the bad sectors.
-----------------------------------------------------------

This email was generated by the smartd daemon running on:

    host name: x64VDR
   DNS domain: tdl
   NIS domain: (none)

The following warning/error was logged by the smartd daemon:

Device: /dev/sdc, 49 Currently unreadable (pending) sectors


For details see host's SYSLOG.

You can also use the smartctl utility for further investigation.
The original email about this issue was sent at Fri Sep  6 23:56:48 2013 MST
Another email message will be sent in 24 hours if the problem persists.

-----------------------------------------------------------

This email was generated by the smartd daemon running on:

    host name: x64VDR
   DNS domain: tdl
   NIS domain: (none)

The following warning/error was logged by the smartd daemon:

Device: /dev/sdc, 49 Offline uncorrectable sectors


For details see host's SYSLOG.

You can also use the smartctl utility for further investigation.
The original email about this issue was sent at Fri Sep  6 23:56:58 2013 MST
Another email message will be sent in 24 hours if the problem persists.
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Re: Mixing WD red with older seagates

[Andrew Brooks]

On 9 September 2013 15:56, Mathias Burén <mathias.buren@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The sneeze story isn't true.
> if your room and your servers are normal, you've nothing to worry about.

But see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDacjrSCeq4
https://blogs.oracle.com/brendan/entry/unusual_disk_latency
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Re: Mixing WD red with older seagates

[Drew]

> From what I've read (assuming I understand correctly) they are a low-ish
> vibration drive with some fancy head positioning for alignment... but
> should be limited to 5 at most, or at least are intended for upto 5
> drive systems, so I wonder if this means that more than 5 could suffer
> from vibrations throwing disks out?

No.

RED's are a consumer drive with TLER enabled so it plays well in small
NAS units. To protect their enterprise sales, they put an artificial
limitation of 4-5 drives per NAS in the warranty terms.


-- 
Drew