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From: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa-YMNOUZJC4hwAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Rich Felker <dalias-8zAoT0mYgF4@public.gmane.org>,
	Mikael Pettersson
	<mikpelinux-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto-kltTT9wpgjJwATOyAt5JVQ@public.gmane.org>,
	Russ Cox <rsc-iFWiy5xATs8dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>,
	linux-api-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org,
	Ian Taylor <iant-iFWiy5xATs8dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>,
	linux-kernel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org,
	X86 ML <x86-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC 0/2] __vdso_findsym
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 10:05:47 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <539DD26B.3060709@zytor.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20140615143500.GP179-C3MtFaGISjmo6RMmaWD+6Sb1p8zYI1N1@public.gmane.org>

On 06/15/2014 07:35 AM, Rich Felker wrote:
> 
> Arguably, it was a mistake for the kernel to expose a virtual ELF to
> begin with, and it should just have exposed a "lookup function by
> name" operation to begin with. Yes this can be done in userspace, but
> I see it more as a matter of "fixing a broken API design".
> 

What the fsck are you smoking?  There is immense value in providing a
stable and very well-defined data structure, which also happens to be
what dynamic linkers already want to consume.  Providing a helper for
crippled libc applications has potential value.  Shaving a few hundred
bytes off static applications is a very weak argument, simply because it
is such a small fraction of the enormous cost of a static application,
and static applications are problematic in a number of other ways,
especially the lack of ability to fix bugs.

Treating the kernel as an ersatz dynamic library for "static"
applications is kind of silly -- after all, why not provide an entire
libc in the vdso?  I have actually seen people advocate for doing that.

	-hpa

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
To: Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org>, Mikael Pettersson <mikpelinux@gmail.com>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>, Russ Cox <rsc@golang.org>,
	linux-api@vger.kernel.org, Ian Taylor <iant@golang.org>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, X86 ML <x86@kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC 0/2] __vdso_findsym
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 10:05:47 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <539DD26B.3060709@zytor.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20140615143500.GP179@brightrain.aerifal.cx>

On 06/15/2014 07:35 AM, Rich Felker wrote:
> 
> Arguably, it was a mistake for the kernel to expose a virtual ELF to
> begin with, and it should just have exposed a "lookup function by
> name" operation to begin with. Yes this can be done in userspace, but
> I see it more as a matter of "fixing a broken API design".
> 

What the fsck are you smoking?  There is immense value in providing a
stable and very well-defined data structure, which also happens to be
what dynamic linkers already want to consume.  Providing a helper for
crippled libc applications has potential value.  Shaving a few hundred
bytes off static applications is a very weak argument, simply because it
is such a small fraction of the enormous cost of a static application,
and static applications are problematic in a number of other ways,
especially the lack of ability to fix bugs.

Treating the kernel as an ersatz dynamic library for "static"
applications is kind of silly -- after all, why not provide an entire
libc in the vdso?  I have actually seen people advocate for doing that.

	-hpa



  parent reply	other threads:[~2014-06-15 17:05 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 66+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-06-14 18:16 [RFC 0/2] __vdso_findsym Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-14 18:16 ` [RFC 1/2] uapi: Add some missing dynamic table-related definitions to elf.h Andy Lutomirski
     [not found] ` <cover.1402769596.git.luto-kltTT9wpgjJwATOyAt5JVQ@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-14 18:16   ` [RFC 2/2] [NOT READY] x86/vdso: Add __vdso_findsym Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-14 18:16     ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-15 14:25   ` [RFC 0/2] __vdso_findsym Mikael Pettersson
2014-06-15 14:25     ` Mikael Pettersson
2014-06-15 14:35     ` Rich Felker
2014-06-15 15:47       ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]       ` <20140615143500.GP179-C3MtFaGISjmo6RMmaWD+6Sb1p8zYI1N1@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 17:05         ` H. Peter Anvin [this message]
2014-06-15 17:05           ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]           ` <539DD26B.3060709-YMNOUZJC4hwAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 17:40             ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-15 17:40               ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]               ` <CALCETrXTpkto2gJBiFC4CR5D=Lqf2YfP5BBH02f8hFW+TUGqeA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 17:57                 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15 17:57                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15 18:20                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-15 18:39                     ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]                       ` <4ab91a07-c46c-485b-895d-b074d36624d6-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 18:54                         ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-15 18:54                           ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]                           ` <CALCETrV-ocpugRwL7rd4GDX-Y89L7So8_6BBjOUDeR4V8RSPEA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 19:14                             ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15 19:14                               ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]                               ` <90c597c5-f77d-491e-b0b8-dde2027155b5-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 19:22                                 ` Ian Lance Taylor
2014-06-15 19:22                                   ` Ian Lance Taylor
     [not found]                                   ` <CAKOQZ8zD7kyEmujCtTA8pm=wrM6vDJ5Yspfn1AkSydffhBus2g-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 19:31                                     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15 19:31                                       ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]                                       ` <9a4fb9c9-4b1c-4593-a99e-a2ef2325d55d-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 19:50                                         ` Ian Lance Taylor
2014-06-15 19:50                                           ` Ian Lance Taylor
     [not found]                                           ` <CAKOQZ8z9r4Kw=0MNn29CMzD0-ZF=yCL2QfQp-oh==5MUcMQmuA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 19:56                                             ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15 19:56                                               ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]                                               ` <8607961d-b42a-4dba-a736-d3a8586ee42d-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 20:53                                                 ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-15 20:53                                                   ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]                                               ` <CALCETrVoOS913rUo288c 6PhNtrWBZa9tSA6Ec=WUw1+SAU9ALw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                                 ` <CALCETrVoOS913rUo288c6PhNtrWBZa9tSA6Ec=WUw1+SAU9ALw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 21:13                                                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15 21:13                                                     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-16  0:55                                 ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16  0:55                                   ` Rich Felker
     [not found]                     ` <CALCETrWLBCNiJArMRPuHbfhj6=ytnx_YqykzgCgZ+DYu34M1Mg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-16  2:36                       ` Andi Kleen
2014-06-16  2:36                         ` Andi Kleen
     [not found]                         ` <20140616023604.GI5714-1g7Xle2YJi4/4alezvVtWx2eb7JE58TQ@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-16  3:49                           ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16  3:49                             ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16 14:08                         ` Ian Lance Taylor
     [not found]                           ` <CAKOQZ8wwKcDAXq0BnHwvL01LQNFeOGwgA9x8kCLWeFaP6USF4A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-16 14:38                             ` Andi Kleen
2014-06-16 14:38                               ` Andi Kleen
2014-06-16 14:58                               ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16 15:31                               ` Ian Lance Taylor
     [not found]                                 ` <CAKOQZ8zk8KfkObSZg8fmhZXm9nXQSneOywvV-NBj=N-tNWjNPg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-16 15:42                                   ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16 15:42                                     ` Rich Felker
2014-06-20 15:55                                     ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]                                       ` <CALCETrWnQyCk5vhDj-yAhRdAFOtFKSU6H-E_=LBC+FbA2REhrg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-20 16:07                                         ` Rich Felker
2014-06-20 16:07                                           ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16 14:56                             ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16 14:56                               ` Rich Felker
2014-06-15 18:20                 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15 18:20                   ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]                   ` <f420daee-9a06-414b-911f-5db7b7b37abe-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15 18:22                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-15 18:22                       ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]                       ` <CALCETrXxG3_wxRAPF9CNk+2yv7t2Hw5Z4R-UdNKSZtU+pSe9og-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-16  6:39                         ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16  6:39                           ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16  1:06             ` Rich Felker
2014-06-16  1:06               ` Rich Felker
2014-06-14 21:30 ` Rich Felker
2014-06-14 22:38   ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]     ` <CALCETrX3Kv7VAfYau-79odKtRvME0-AzZB_xGUMPEHeas8AkaQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-14 23:36       ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-14 23:36         ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]         ` <539CDC6F.6010501-YMNOUZJC4hwAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15  3:59           ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-15  3:59             ` H. Peter Anvin
     [not found]             ` <539D1A28.7040107-YMNOUZJC4hwAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2014-06-15  6:49               ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-06-15  6:49                 ` Andy Lutomirski

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