VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Gorny Krystian]

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Hi,
I have a question regarding the VFAT patent (EP 0 618 540) owned by Microsoft. It's about common name space for long and short filenames. I have read that this patent was canceled by Germany / EU, but it's still available in the US right? So is there a patch/option where we can activate to avoid this patent?
Thanks
Krystian


_____________________________________________________________________

Krystian Gorny
Research & Development

Wipotec GmbH
Adam-Hoffmann-Str. 26
67657 Kaiserslautern

T +49.631.34146-0
F +49.631.34146-8640
http://www.wipotec.com


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Re: VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Robert Berger]

Hi,

On 10/09/2015 11:36 AM, Gorny Krystian wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have a question regarding the VFAT patent (EP 0 618 540) owned by
> Microsoft. It’s about common name space for long and short filenames. I
> have read that this patent was canceled by Germany / EU, but it’s still
> available in the US right? So is there a patch/option where we can
> activate to avoid this patent?

I am not a lawyer, but wouldn't it be easier not to use VFAT?
The only reason I would use it, would be because the bootloader of my
SoC would only be able to boot over FAT/FAT32 from a managed flash. A
patch will not help here as well;)

There are rumors that a fix was implemented a long time ago[1] ;)

> 
> Thanks
> 
> Krystian
> 

Regards,

Robert


[1]
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/vfat-linux-patch-could-circumvent-microsofts-patent-claims/

> 
> Legal information:
> Wipotec Wiege- und Positioniersysteme GmbH
> HRB 2317 Kaiserslautern, Management: T. Düppre, U. Wagner
> 
> This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> error)
> please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. Any
> unauthorized
> copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is
> strictly
> forbidden.
> 

Since you are concerned about legal issues you might also want to remove
this footer when posting to public lists ;)

> 
> -- 
> 

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Re: VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Christian Ege]

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Hi,
Am 09.10.2015 8:31 nachm. schrieb "Robert Berger" <
gmane@reliableembeddedsystems.com>:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/09/2015 11:36 AM, Gorny Krystian wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have a question regarding the VFAT patent (EP 0 618 540) owned by
> > Microsoft. It’s about common name space for long and short filenames. I
> > have read that this patent was canceled by Germany / EU, but it’s still
> > available in the US right? So is there a patch/option where we can
> > activate to avoid this patent?
>
> I am not a lawyer, but wouldn't it be easier not to use VFAT?
> The only reason I would use it, would be because the bootloader of my
> SoC would only be able to boot over FAT/FAT32 from a managed flash. A
> patch will not help here as well;)
A decent U-Boot can load the kernel from ext4. And I do not know any ROM
loader which needs vfat, except maybe this TI SOCs...

Regards,
Christian
>
> There are rumors that a fix was implemented a long time ago[1] ;)
>
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Krystian
> >
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
>
> [1]
>
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/vfat-linux-patch-could-circumvent-microsofts-patent-claims/
>
> >
> > Legal information:
> > Wipotec Wiege- und Positioniersysteme GmbH
> > HRB 2317 Kaiserslautern, Management: T. Düppre, U. Wagner
> >
> > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> > If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> > error)
> > please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. Any
> > unauthorized
> > copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is
> > strictly
> > forbidden.
> >
>
> Since you are concerned about legal issues you might also want to remove
> this footer when posting to public lists ;)
>
> >
> > --
> >
>
> ..."Rules of Optimization: Rule1: Don't do it. Rule 2 (for experts
> only): Don't do it yet." - M.A. Jackson (not the singer)
>
> My public pgp key is available,at:
> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x90320BF1
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> yocto mailing list
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Re: VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Ayoub Zaki]

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TI Socs Boot Rom code can use Vfat but does not necessarly need it as
Bootloaders (spl, u-boot) can be loaded directly  from Raw MMC/eMMC.
Am 09.10.2015 21:59 schrieb "Christian Ege" <k4230r6@gmail.com>:

> Hi,
> Am 09.10.2015 8:31 nachm. schrieb "Robert Berger" <
> gmane@reliableembeddedsystems.com>:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 10/09/2015 11:36 AM, Gorny Krystian wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have a question regarding the VFAT patent (EP 0 618 540) owned by
> > > Microsoft. It’s about common name space for long and short filenames. I
> > > have read that this patent was canceled by Germany / EU, but it’s still
> > > available in the US right? So is there a patch/option where we can
> > > activate to avoid this patent?
> >
> > I am not a lawyer, but wouldn't it be easier not to use VFAT?
> > The only reason I would use it, would be because the bootloader of my
> > SoC would only be able to boot over FAT/FAT32 from a managed flash. A
> > patch will not help here as well;)
> A decent U-Boot can load the kernel from ext4. And I do not know any ROM
> loader which needs vfat, except maybe this TI SOCs...
>
> Regards,
> Christian
> >
> > There are rumors that a fix was implemented a long time ago[1] ;)
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Krystian
> > >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > [1]
> >
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/vfat-linux-patch-could-circumvent-microsofts-patent-claims/
> >
> > >
> > > Legal information:
> > > Wipotec Wiege- und Positioniersysteme GmbH
> > > HRB 2317 Kaiserslautern, Management: T. Düppre, U. Wagner
> > >
> > > This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
> > > If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
> > > error)
> > > please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. Any
> > > unauthorized
> > > copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is
> > > strictly
> > > forbidden.
> > >
> >
> > Since you are concerned about legal issues you might also want to remove
> > this footer when posting to public lists ;)
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> >
> > ..."Rules of Optimization: Rule1: Don't do it. Rule 2 (for experts
> > only): Don't do it yet." - M.A. Jackson (not the singer)
> >
> > My public pgp key is available,at:
> > http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x90320BF1
> >
> >
> > --
> > _______________________________________________
> > yocto mailing list
> > yocto@yoctoproject.org
> > https://lists.yoctoproject.org/listinfo/yocto
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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Re: VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Robert Berger]

Hi

On 10/09/2015 11:20 PM, Ayoub Zaki wrote:
> TI Socs Boot Rom code can use Vfat but does not necessarly need it as
> Bootloaders (spl, u-boot) can be loaded directly  from Raw MMC/eMMC.

I just discovered this recently. Something like:

sudo dd if=./u-boot/MLO of=${DISK} count=1 seek=1 bs=128k
sudo dd if=./u-boot/u-boot.img of=${DISK} count=2 seek=1 bs=384k

So even my made up scenario where you would need vfat on the first
partition does not hold anymore.

... but ...

what about the patent and the on-chip ROMs of SoCs from Ti and Freescale
(hmm NXP? or whoever bought them lately). Maybe the SoCs are affected
since they are able to load stuff from vfat, even if we don't need to
use this feature anymore.

Regards,

Robert

..."Never express yourself more clearly than you think." - Niels Bohr

My public pgp key is available,at:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x90320BF1

Re: VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Chris Simmonds]

Hi

On 10/10/15 17:58, Robert Berger wrote:
> Hi
>
> On 10/09/2015 11:20 PM, Ayoub Zaki wrote:
>> TI Socs Boot Rom code can use Vfat but does not necessarly need it as
>> Bootloaders (spl, u-boot) can be loaded directly  from Raw MMC/eMMC.
> I just discovered this recently. Something like:
>
> sudo dd if=./u-boot/MLO of=${DISK} count=1 seek=1 bs=128k
> sudo dd if=./u-boot/u-boot.img of=${DISK} count=2 seek=1 bs=384k
>
> So even my made up scenario where you would need vfat on the first
> partition does not hold anymore.
Usually the need to include vfat support driven by the desire to
read/write removable media such as SD cards and USB mass storage
devices. If you want interoperability with certain legacy operating
systems vfat is the only option.

>
> ... but ...
>
> what about the patent and the on-chip ROMs of SoCs from Ti and Freescale
> (hmm NXP? or whoever bought them lately). Maybe the SoCs are affected
> since they are able to load stuff from vfat, even if we don't need to
> use this feature anymore.
Not a problem for two reasons. First the patent only applies to fat32;
you can do anything you like with fat16. The TI romcode only uses fat16,
I am pretty sure. Second, even with fat32, the patent is only concerned
with updates to the namespace, hence so long as the romcode does not
have the ability to create files it is also OK. Note that you can't get
round the patent just by mounting vfat partitions read-only because the
driver still has the ability to make new files. There was a patch for
the vfat driver which removed the code to create or modify directory
entries, but it seems to have got lost in the mists of time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ..."Never express yourself more clearly than you think." - Niels Bohr
>
> My public pgp key is available,at:
> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x90320BF1
>
>
-- 
Chris Simmonds, Consultant, 2net Ltd
http://www.2net.co.uk
+44 (0)1962 869003

Re: VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Gorny Krystian]

Hi,

exactly Chris it's for sharing Data on external media like USB. I found a workaround in the kernel menuconfig it's working fine. The entry for the workaround is in the menu:

> File systems
>> DOS/FAT/NT Filesystems
>>> disable VFAT Dual names support (patent workaround)

Thanks.

Krystian

_____________________________________________________________________

Krystian Gorny
Research & Development

Wipotec GmbH
Adam-Hoffmann-Str. 26
67657 Kaiserslautern

T +49.631.34146-0
F +49.631.34146-8640
http://www.wipotec.com


_____________________________________________________________________

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_____________________________________________________________________

Legal information:
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HRB 2317 Kaiserslautern, Management: T. D?ppre, U. Wagner

This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error)
please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. Any unauthorized
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-----Original Message-----
From: yocto-bounces@yoctoproject.org [mailto:yocto-bounces@yoctoproject.org] On Behalf Of Chris Simmonds
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 3:17 PM
To: yocto@yoctoproject.org
Subject: Re: [yocto] VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

Hi

On 10/10/15 17:58, Robert Berger wrote:
> Hi
>
> On 10/09/2015 11:20 PM, Ayoub Zaki wrote:
>> TI Socs Boot Rom code can use Vfat but does not necessarly need it as
>> Bootloaders (spl, u-boot) can be loaded directly  from Raw MMC/eMMC.
> I just discovered this recently. Something like:
>
> sudo dd if=./u-boot/MLO of=${DISK} count=1 seek=1 bs=128k sudo dd
> if=./u-boot/u-boot.img of=${DISK} count=2 seek=1 bs=384k
>
> So even my made up scenario where you would need vfat on the first
> partition does not hold anymore.
Usually the need to include vfat support driven by the desire to read/write removable media such as SD cards and USB mass storage devices. If you want interoperability with certain legacy operating systems vfat is the only option.

>
> ... but ...
>
> what about the patent and the on-chip ROMs of SoCs from Ti and
> Freescale (hmm NXP? or whoever bought them lately). Maybe the SoCs are
> affected since they are able to load stuff from vfat, even if we don't
> need to use this feature anymore.
Not a problem for two reasons. First the patent only applies to fat32; you can do anything you like with fat16. The TI romcode only uses fat16, I am pretty sure. Second, even with fat32, the patent is only concerned with updates to the namespace, hence so long as the romcode does not have the ability to create files it is also OK. Note that you can't get round the patent just by mounting vfat partitions read-only because the driver still has the ability to make new files. There was a patch for the vfat driver which removed the code to create or modify directory entries, but it seems to have got lost in the mists of time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ..."Never express yourself more clearly than you think." - Niels Bohr
>
> My public pgp key is available,at:
> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x90320BF1
>
>
--
Chris Simmonds, Consultant, 2net Ltd
http://www.2net.co.uk
+44 (0)1962 869003

--
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Re: VFAT patent EP 0 618 540

[Robert Berger]

Hi,

On 10/09/2015 10:58 PM, Christian Ege wrote:
> A decent U-Boot can load the kernel from ext4. And I do not know any ROM
> loader which needs vfat, except maybe this TI SOCs...

Yep that's what I mean. The on-chip loader, which loads MLO,...

Anyhow I tried to come up with a scenario where someone might possibly
want to use vfat.

> 
> Regards,
> Christian

Regards,

Robert

..."Engineering is a science of tradeoffs" -- Yale Patt (computer
architecture guru)

My public pgp key is available,at:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x90320BF1