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From: Alyssa Rosenzweig <alyssa@collabora.com>
To: Liviu Dudau <liviu.dudau@arm.com>
Cc: Simon Ser <contact@emersion.fr>,
	Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>,
	Maxime Ripard <maxime@cerno.tech>,
	Xinliang Liu <xinliang.liu@linaro.org>,
	dri-devel <dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org>,
	Anitha Chrisanthus <anitha.chrisanthus@intel.com>,
	Jonathan Hunter <jonathanh@nvidia.com>,
	Jerome Brunet <jbrunet@baylibre.com>,
	Kevin Hilman <khilman@baylibre.com>,
	Ludovic Desroches <ludovic.desroches@microchip.com>,
	NXP Linux Team <linux-imx@nxp.com>,
	Sascha Hauer <s.hauer@pengutronix.de>,
	Roland Scheidegger <sroland@vmware.com>,
	Sean Paul <sean@poorly.run>, Hyun Kwon <hyun.kwon@xilinx.com>,
	Andrew Jeffery <andrew@aj.id.au>,
	Seung-Woo Kim <sw0312.kim@samsung.com>,
	Noralf Tr??nnes <noralf@tronnes.org>,
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	Nicolas Ferre <nicolas.ferre@microchip.com>,
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	Jyri Sarha <jyri.sarha@iki.fi>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3] Documentation: gpu: Mention the requirements for new properties
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 08:56:04 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <YMNdZCkyaVoH+WAd@maud> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210611120309.2b5eb4htupv5ss32@e110455-lin.cambridge.arm.com>

> What I'm expected to see in the future is new functionality that gets implemented by
> one hardware vendor and the kernel developers trying to enable that for userspace. It
> could be that the new property is generic, but there is no way of testing that on
> more than one implementation yet, so I'd say we are generous calling it "standard
> property". When the second or third hardware vendor comes along and starts supporting
> that property with their own set of extra requirements, then we can call it
> "standard". Then comes the effort cost: would it be easier to start with a vendor
> property that only the vendor needs to support (and can submit patches into the
> compositors to do so) and when the standard property gets added moves to that, or
> should we start with a generic property that gets implemented by the compositors
> (maybe, but then only one vendor supports it) and then later when we actually
> standardise the property we will have to carry backwards compatibility code in the
> kernel to handle the old behaviour for old userspace? My proposal to Maxime was for
> the former option to be reflected in the documentation, but I would like to hear your
> thoughts.

Just my 2c - if the mainline kernel isn't willing to commit to a feature
for upstream userspace to use, why does that feature belong in the
kernel at all? I don't see much value in exposing hardware for the sake
of exposing it when, practically, Linux userspace /can't/ use it as-is.

Might these vendor properties be used on downstream Android userspaces?
That's not generally an upstream goal to support.

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Alyssa Rosenzweig <alyssa@collabora.com>
To: Liviu Dudau <liviu.dudau@arm.com>
Cc: Haneen Mohammed <hamohammed.sa@gmail.com>,
	Alexandre Belloni <alexandre.belloni@bootlin.com>,
	Linux Doc Mailing List <linux-doc@vger.kernel.org>,
	Xinliang Liu <xinliang.liu@linaro.org>,
	Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>,
	Edmund Dea <edmund.j.dea@intel.com>,
	Alexandre Torgue <alexandre.torgue@foss.st.com>,
	dri-devel <dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org>,
	Russell King <linux@armlinux.org.uk>,
	Melissa Wen <melissa.srw@gmail.com>,
	Tomi Valkeinen <tomba@kernel.org>,
	Thierry Reding <thierry.reding@gmail.com>,
	Laurent Pinchart <Laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com>,
	Benjamin Gaignard <benjamin.gaignard@linaro.org>,
	Anitha Chrisanthus <anitha.chrisanthus@intel.com>,
	Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@intel.com>,
	Steven Price <steven.price@arm.com>,
	Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org>, Jyri Sarha <jyri.sarha@iki.fi>,
	Jerome Brunet <jbrunet@baylibre.com>, Marek Vasut <marex@denx.de>,
	Joonyoung Shim <jy0922.shim@samsung.com>,
	Qiang Yu <yuq825@gmail.com>,
	Krzysztof Kozlowski <krzysztof.kozlowski@canonical.com>,
	Kevin Hilman <khilman@baylibre.com>,
	Neil Armstrong <narmstrong@baylibre.com>,
	Alyssa Rosenzweig <alyssa.rosenzweig@collabora.com>,
	Xinwei Kong <kong.kongxinwei@hisilicon.com>,
	Jonathan Hunter <jonathanh@nvidia.com>,
	David Airlie <airlied@linux.ie>,
	Ludovic Desroches <ludovic.desroches@microchip.com>,
	Kieran Bingham <kieran.bingham+renesas@ideasonboard.com>,
	VMware Graphics <linux-graphics-maintainer@vmware.com>,
	NXP Linux Team <linux-imx@nxp.com>,
	Ben Skeggs <bskeggs@redhat.com>,
	Chun-Kuang Hu <chunkuang.hu@kernel.org>,
	Maxime Coquelin <mcoquelin.stm32@gmail.com>,
	Jonas Karlman <jonas@kwiboo.se>,
	Martin Blumenstingl <martin.blumenstingl@googlemail.com>,
	Chen Feng <puck.chen@hisilicon.com>,
	Sascha Hauer <s.hauer@pengutronix.de>,
	Alison Wang <alison.wang@nxp.com>,
	Roland Scheidegger <sroland@vmware.com>,
	Andrzej Hajda <a.hajda@samsung.com>,
	Hans de Goede <hdegoede@redhat.com>,
	Maxime Ripard <maxime@cerno.tech>,
	Rodrigo Vivi <rodrigo.vivi@intel.com>,
	Matthias Brugger <matthias.bgg@gmail.com>,
	Nicolas Ferre <nicolas.ferre@microchip.com>,
	Chen-Yu Tsai <wens@csie.org>, Sean Paul <sean@poorly.run>,
	Thomas Zimmermann <tzimmermann@suse.de>,
	Paul Cercueil <paul@crapouillou.net>,
	Jernej Skrabec <jernej.skrabec@siol.net>,
	Huang Rui <ray.huang@amd.com>,
	Rodrigo Siqueira <rodrigosiqueiramelo@gmail.com>,
	Hyun Kwon <hyun.kwon@xilinx.com>,
	Boris Brezillon <bbrezillon@kernel.org>,
	Andrew Jeffery <andrew@aj.id.au>,
	Yannick Fertr e <yannick.fertre@foss.st.com>,
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>,
	Seung-Woo Kim <sw0312.kim@samsung.com>,
	Sandy Huang <hjc@rock-chips.com>,
	Robert Foss <robert.foss@linaro.org>,
	Joel Stanley <joel@jms.id.au>,
	Tomeu Vizoso <tomeu.vizoso@collabora.com>,
	Kyungmin Park <kyungmin.park@samsung.com>,
	Noralf Tr??nnes <noralf@tronnes.org>,
	Philippe Cornu <philippe.cornu@foss.st.com>,
	Pengutronix Kernel Team <kernel@pengutronix.de>,
	Alex Deucher <alexander.deucher@amd.com>,
	Tian Tao <tiantao6@hisilicon.com>,
	Oleksandr Andrushchenko <oleksandr_andrushchenko@epam.com>,
	Shawn Guo <shawnguo@kernel.org>,
	Christian K??nig <christian.koenig@amd.com>,
	Gerd Hoffmann <kraxel@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3] Documentation: gpu: Mention the requirements for new properties
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 08:56:04 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <YMNdZCkyaVoH+WAd@maud> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210611120309.2b5eb4htupv5ss32@e110455-lin.cambridge.arm.com>

> What I'm expected to see in the future is new functionality that gets implemented by
> one hardware vendor and the kernel developers trying to enable that for userspace. It
> could be that the new property is generic, but there is no way of testing that on
> more than one implementation yet, so I'd say we are generous calling it "standard
> property". When the second or third hardware vendor comes along and starts supporting
> that property with their own set of extra requirements, then we can call it
> "standard". Then comes the effort cost: would it be easier to start with a vendor
> property that only the vendor needs to support (and can submit patches into the
> compositors to do so) and when the standard property gets added moves to that, or
> should we start with a generic property that gets implemented by the compositors
> (maybe, but then only one vendor supports it) and then later when we actually
> standardise the property we will have to carry backwards compatibility code in the
> kernel to handle the old behaviour for old userspace? My proposal to Maxime was for
> the former option to be reflected in the documentation, but I would like to hear your
> thoughts.

Just my 2c - if the mainline kernel isn't willing to commit to a feature
for upstream userspace to use, why does that feature belong in the
kernel at all? I don't see much value in exposing hardware for the sake
of exposing it when, practically, Linux userspace /can't/ use it as-is.

Might these vendor properties be used on downstream Android userspaces?
That's not generally an upstream goal to support.

  reply	other threads:[~2021-06-11 12:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 65+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-06-10 17:47 [PATCH v3] Documentation: gpu: Mention the requirements for new properties Maxime Ripard
2021-06-10 17:47 ` Maxime Ripard
2021-06-10 18:14 ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-10 18:14   ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-10 19:09 ` Rodrigo Vivi
2021-06-10 19:09   ` Rodrigo Vivi
2021-06-10 21:00 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-06-10 21:00   ` Daniel Vetter
2021-06-11  5:54   ` Maxime Ripard
2021-06-11  5:54     ` Maxime Ripard
2021-06-11  6:53     ` Tomi Valkeinen
2021-06-11  6:53       ` Tomi Valkeinen
2021-06-11 15:26       ` Daniel Vetter
2021-06-11 15:26         ` Daniel Vetter
2021-06-14 14:27     ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-14 16:14     ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-14 16:14       ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-11  8:14   ` Simon Ser
2021-06-11  8:14     ` Simon Ser
2021-06-11 12:03     ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-11 12:03       ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-11 12:56       ` Alyssa Rosenzweig [this message]
2021-06-11 12:56         ` Alyssa Rosenzweig
2021-06-11 13:34         ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-11 13:34           ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-14 16:23           ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-14 16:23             ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-14 14:49       ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-14 14:49         ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-14 15:24         ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-14 15:24           ` Liviu Dudau
2021-06-14 16:33           ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-14 16:33             ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-15  7:03             ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-15  7:03               ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-15  7:15               ` Simon Ser
2021-06-15  7:15                 ` Simon Ser
2021-06-15  9:45                 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-15  9:45                   ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-15 10:16                   ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-15 10:16                     ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-15 12:08                     ` Simon Ser
2021-06-15 12:08                       ` Simon Ser
2021-06-16 20:39                       ` Daniel Vetter
2021-06-16 20:39                         ` Daniel Vetter
2021-06-16 21:05                     ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-16 21:05                       ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-17  7:27                       ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-17  7:27                         ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-17 10:29                         ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-17 10:29                           ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-17 11:33                           ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-17 11:33                             ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-17 13:37                             ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-17 13:37                               ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-18  8:55                               ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-18  8:55                                 ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-18  9:58                                 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-18  9:58                                   ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-18 11:32                                   ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-18 11:32                                     ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-18 12:19                                     ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-18 12:19                                       ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-06-21  8:21                                       ` Pekka Paalanen
2021-06-21  8:21                                         ` Pekka Paalanen

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