* Re: [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM
2002-06-28 2:08 [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM position Patrick McHardy
@ 2002-06-28 7:06 ` Arthur van Leeuwen
2002-06-28 11:59 ` Patrick McHardy
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Arthur van Leeuwen @ 2002-06-28 7:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: lartc
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Patrick McHardy wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> i know this is not the right place to discuss this, but i assume some
> people here might have some good ideas which could help me.
> Also, i don't really know where else to turn ..
I'll see if I can help.
[snip]
> A TCP usually takes care of this (wraparound after min. 24.8 days), but
> this will not be true anymore. if we choose our timestamp clock to
> increase once every 1 ms the sign bit will wrap after 5.5 minutes. I'm
> not sure what to do about this (this is why i'm writing), does anyone
> here have good ideas? I would also be happy about a completly different
> approach, somehing totaly passive would be nice .. :)
The completely different approach would be to recognize all TCP streams
running through the machine and keep clocks for them: store the most recent
RTTM SYN time for a particular stream as well as the current time of the
machine when that RTTM time was seen. This will give you a good enough
approximation of the clock-skew between what you would put in the RTTM field
yourself and what is in there already, allowing you to use the RTTM fields
if they already exist. Note that this takes 64 bits, i.e. 8 bytes of storage
per TCP stream, and tracking of all active TCP streams running through your
machine. However, the latter is probably necessary *anyway* if you are
going to do rate control, as you're bound to want to store the windowsizes
and stuff related to each TCP stream separately.
Doei, Arthur.
--
/\ / | arthurvl@sci.kun.nl | Work like you don't need the money
/__\ / | A friend is someone with whom | Love like you have never been hurt
/ \/__ | you can dare to be yourself | Dance like there's nobody watching
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM
2002-06-28 2:08 [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM position Patrick McHardy
2002-06-28 7:06 ` [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM Arthur van Leeuwen
@ 2002-06-28 11:59 ` Patrick McHardy
2002-06-28 12:25 ` Arthur van Leeuwen
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Patrick McHardy @ 2002-06-28 11:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: lartc
Hi Arthur,
Arthur van Leeuwen wrote:
>>A TCP usually takes care of this (wraparound after min. 24.8 days), but
>>this will not be true anymore. if we choose our timestamp clock to
>>increase once every 1 ms the sign bit will wrap after 5.5 minutes. I'm
>>not sure what to do about this (this is why i'm writing), does anyone
>>here have good ideas? I would also be happy about a completly different
>>approach, somehing totaly passive would be nice .. :)
>>
>
>The completely different approach would be to recognize all TCP streams
>running through the machine and keep clocks for them: store the most recent
>RTTM SYN time for a particular stream as well as the current time of the
>machine when that RTTM time was seen. This will give you a good enough
>approximation of the clock-skew between what you would put in the RTTM field
>yourself and what is in there already, allowing you to use the RTTM fields
>if they already exist. Note that this takes 64 bits, i.e. 8 bytes of storage
>
I hope i got you right, you mean i should calculate the difference
between my clock and the first timestamp of a session, then
send my own and on reply substract the clock-skew again ?
There a two problems with this,
first it assumes the remote clock is incremented at the same rate as
mine which will not be true most of the time.
Second RFC1323 requires the host to only update its estimated rtt if it
receives an echo to an timestamp it sent out before (=exact echo),
although linux for example doesn't seem to validate the echoed value.
Perhaps i should syncronize somehow to the remote clock, by calculating
the clock-skew and the factor between the two clock-rates.
But there the problem would be that the clock-rate-factor is already
influenced by the roundtrip time, so i guess it's not really suited to
measure it afterwards ..
>
>per TCP stream, and tracking of all active TCP streams running through your
>machine. However, the latter is probably necessary *anyway* if you are
>going to do rate control, as you're bound to want to store the windowsizes
>and stuff related to each TCP stream separately.
>
Yes connection tracking is necessary (and already working fine :)
>
>Doei, Arthur.
>
Thanks for your help,
Patrick
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM
2002-06-28 2:08 [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM position Patrick McHardy
2002-06-28 7:06 ` [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM Arthur van Leeuwen
2002-06-28 11:59 ` Patrick McHardy
@ 2002-06-28 12:25 ` Arthur van Leeuwen
2002-06-28 13:56 ` Patrick McHardy
2002-07-01 8:05 ` Arthur van Leeuwen
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Arthur van Leeuwen @ 2002-06-28 12:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: lartc
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Patrick McHardy wrote:
> Hi Arthur,
>
> Arthur van Leeuwen wrote:
>
> >>A TCP usually takes care of this (wraparound after min. 24.8 days), but
> >>this will not be true anymore. if we choose our timestamp clock to
> >>increase once every 1 ms the sign bit will wrap after 5.5 minutes. I'm
> >>not sure what to do about this (this is why i'm writing), does anyone
> >>here have good ideas? I would also be happy about a completly different
> >>approach, somehing totaly passive would be nice .. :)
> >>
> >
> >The completely different approach would be to recognize all TCP streams
> >running through the machine and keep clocks for them: store the most recent
> >RTTM SYN time for a particular stream as well as the current time of the
> >machine when that RTTM time was seen. This will give you a good enough
> >approximation of the clock-skew between what you would put in the RTTM field
> >yourself and what is in there already, allowing you to use the RTTM fields
> >if they already exist. Note that this takes 64 bits, i.e. 8 bytes of storage
> >
> I hope i got you right, you mean i should calculate the difference
> between my clock and the first timestamp of a session, then
> send my own and on reply substract the clock-skew again ?
No, that is active intervention again. I meant to *remember* the value of
your clock and the last seen RTTM field for a session, and then when
the corresponding ack returns use that remembered value as opposed to the
the value in the RTTM field for your round-trip time calculation.
> >per TCP stream, and tracking of all active TCP streams running through your
> >machine. However, the latter is probably necessary *anyway* if you are
> >going to do rate control, as you're bound to want to store the windowsizes
> >and stuff related to each TCP stream separately.
> Yes connection tracking is necessary (and already working fine :)
Well, what you do then is (in pseudocode):
if packet contains RTTM field:
if packet is SYN:
remember local time (RTTM value, TCP stream)
send packet on
else:
lookup local time for (TCP stream, RTTM value)
calculate round-trip with local time
else:
do whatever you like
Thereby you merely use the value in the RTTM field as a key to a set of
stored local clockvalues. Yes, this will break if the value in the RTTM does
not monotonically increase, but... that increase *is* guaranteed by the RFC.
Doei, Arthur.
--
/\ / | arthurvl@sci.kun.nl | Work like you don't need the money
/__\ / | A friend is someone with whom | Love like you have never been hurt
/ \/__ | you can dare to be yourself | Dance like there's nobody watching
_______________________________________________
LARTC mailing list / LARTC@mailman.ds9a.nl
http://mailman.ds9a.nl/mailman/listinfo/lartc HOWTO: http://lartc.org/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM
2002-06-28 2:08 [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM position Patrick McHardy
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2002-06-28 12:25 ` Arthur van Leeuwen
@ 2002-06-28 13:56 ` Patrick McHardy
2002-07-01 8:05 ` Arthur van Leeuwen
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Patrick McHardy @ 2002-06-28 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: lartc
Arthur van Leeuwen wrote:
>
>On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Patrick McHardy wrote:
>
>>Hi Arthur,
>>
>>Arthur van Leeuwen wrote:
>>
>>>>A TCP usually takes care of this (wraparound after min. 24.8 days), but
>>>>this will not be true anymore. if we choose our timestamp clock to
>>>>increase once every 1 ms the sign bit will wrap after 5.5 minutes. I'm
>>>>not sure what to do about this (this is why i'm writing), does anyone
>>>>here have good ideas? I would also be happy about a completly different
>>>>approach, somehing totaly passive would be nice .. :)
>>>>
>>>The completely different approach would be to recognize all TCP streams
>>>running through the machine and keep clocks for them: store the most recent
>>>RTTM SYN time for a particular stream as well as the current time of the
>>>machine when that RTTM time was seen. This will give you a good enough
>>>approximation of the clock-skew between what you would put in the RTTM field
>>>yourself and what is in there already, allowing you to use the RTTM fields
>>>if they already exist. Note that this takes 64 bits, i.e. 8 bytes of storage
>>>
>>I hope i got you right, you mean i should calculate the difference
>>between my clock and the first timestamp of a session, then
>>send my own and on reply substract the clock-skew again ?
>>
>
>No, that is active intervention again. I meant to *remember* the value of
>your clock and the last seen RTTM field for a session, and then when
>the corresponding ack returns use that remembered value as opposed to the
>the value in the RTTM field for your round-trip time calculation.
>
>>>per TCP stream, and tracking of all active TCP streams running through your
>>>machine. However, the latter is probably necessary *anyway* if you are
>>>going to do rate control, as you're bound to want to store the windowsizes
>>>and stuff related to each TCP stream separately.
>>>
>
>>Yes connection tracking is necessary (and already working fine :)
>>
>
>Well, what you do then is (in pseudocode):
>
> if packet contains RTTM field:
> if packet is SYN:
> remember local time (RTTM value, TCP stream)
> send packet on
> else:
> lookup local time for (TCP stream, RTTM value)
> calculate round-trip with local time
> else:
> do whatever you like
>
>Thereby you merely use the value in the RTTM field as a key to a set of
>stored local clockvalues. Yes, this will break if the value in the RTTM does
>not monotonically increase, but... that increase *is* guaranteed by the RFC.
>
hmm i suppose with "if packet is SYN" you mean "if packet contains new
data", right ?
the reason i came up with this is i want to avoid storing lots of
timestamps/myclock pairs,
the number i would need to store depends on how many packets fit in the
current window,
so for bigger windows i would have to remember lots of values.
Remebering only the first one wouldn't work because i had to rely on the
remote clock to increase excactly as fast as mine.
>
>Doei, Arthur.
>
Bye
Patrick
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM
2002-06-28 2:08 [LARTC] [OT]: rtt measurement using tcp timestamps from a MITM position Patrick McHardy
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2002-06-28 13:56 ` Patrick McHardy
@ 2002-07-01 8:05 ` Arthur van Leeuwen
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Arthur van Leeuwen @ 2002-07-01 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: lartc
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Patrick McHardy wrote:
> Arthur van Leeuwen wrote:
>
> >
> >On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Patrick McHardy wrote:
> >
> >>Hi Arthur,
[snip, RTT estimation from router]
> >>I hope i got you right, you mean i should calculate the difference
> >>between my clock and the first timestamp of a session, then
> >>send my own and on reply substract the clock-skew again ?
> >>
> >
> >No, that is active intervention again. I meant to *remember* the value of
> >your clock and the last seen RTTM field for a session, and then when
> >the corresponding ack returns use that remembered value as opposed to the
> >the value in the RTTM field for your round-trip time calculation.
> >
> >>>per TCP stream, and tracking of all active TCP streams running through your
> >>>machine. However, the latter is probably necessary *anyway* if you are
> >>>going to do rate control, as you're bound to want to store the windowsizes
> >>>and stuff related to each TCP stream separately.
> >>>
> >
> >>Yes connection tracking is necessary (and already working fine :)
> >>
> >
> >Well, what you do then is (in pseudocode):
> >
> > if packet contains RTTM field:
> > if packet is SYN:
> > remember local time (RTTM value, TCP stream)
> > send packet on
> > else:
> > lookup local time for (TCP stream, RTTM value)
> > calculate round-trip with local time
> > else:
> > do whatever you like
> >
> >Thereby you merely use the value in the RTTM field as a key to a set of
> >stored local clockvalues. Yes, this will break if the value in the RTTM does
> >not monotonically increase, but... that increase *is* guaranteed by the RFC.
> hmm i suppose with "if packet is SYN" you mean "if packet contains new
> data", right ?
Well, I mean `if packet contains new RTTM timestamp'. However, I didn't
think this through all that well: you want to store the last seen RTTM field
in each direction of a TCP stream.
> the reason i came up with this is i want to avoid storing lots of
> timestamps/myclock pairs,
You'll have to store 2 per TCP stream, one for each direction.
> the number i would need to store depends on how many packets fit in the
> current window,
No. You only need to store the one for each window. Thus, upon store, have a
counter count acks, and remember the new RTTM field only when the counter
drops below the number of packets that fit in the window. Although
round-trip-time may vary per packet, the approximation is probably still
good enough.
> so for bigger windows i would have to remember lots of values.
> Remebering only the first one wouldn't work because i had to rely on the
> remote clock to increase excactly as fast as mine.
Why? The remote clock doesn't do *anything* to the RTTM field. As I read the
RFC a host has to copy the RTTM field back verbatim into the ACK to the
packet that contained it... as such, you *only* rely on your own clock to
measure roundtrip time.
Doei, Arthur.
--
/\ / | arthurvl@sci.kun.nl | Work like you don't need the money
/__\ / | A friend is someone with whom | Love like you have never been hurt
/ \/__ | you can dare to be yourself | Dance like there's nobody watching
_______________________________________________
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread