Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:19:08AM -0800, David Mosberger wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:10:37 +0000, Matthew Wilcox <willy@debian.org> said:
> 
>   Matthew> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano
>   Matthew> wrote:
>   >> Hi all:
> 
>   >> I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping. That's
>   >> mean that I can use Linux for PA/RISC
>   >> (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in a Itanium 2 computer?
> 
>   Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
>   Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.
> 
> Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux and
> windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2 if
> you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.

...And perhaps you don't forget to add support for the chipset in the
x86/hppa kernel. 

Is the Intel's firmware freely distributed or it is
internal only?

Matthieu

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

Hi,

m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:

> >   Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
> >   Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64
> >   box.
> > Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux
> > and windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2
> > if you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.
> ...And perhaps you don't forget to add support for the chipset in the
> x86/hppa kernel. 

You definitely need IA64 Linux to make real use of an Itanium2 Machine.
(I was able to "play" on an HP 4-Way machine for some weeks.)

However, Itanium chips support X86 Emulation in Hardware, so they can
run any X86 Software without further software support (however, the
software is limited to the X86 capabilities regarding Memory Capacity
etc., and it is _really slow_, every P3/P4/Athlon at the same MHz is
uncomparable.)

As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal instruction length
compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)

Markus

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

> You definitely need IA64 Linux to make real use of an Itanium2 Machine.
> (I was able to "play" on an HP 4-Way machine for some weeks.)

I wasn't speaking about real use. Just dirty things. I was also reacting
with David's previous mail.

> [...] 
> As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
> software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
> easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal instruction length
> compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
> therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
> can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
> mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
> Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)

AFAIK, your knowledge correspond to what I know. Never test hppa
applications, but the intel compiler I had was using 32bits libraries. I
had to extract some of them for my PC to move them on the Itanium. 


So as I said before, I was reacting to David's mail explaining with some
firmware modifications it was possible to do this with an Itanium I,
and he wasn't sure for an Itanium II. Or it is urgent for me to find a
dictionnary. I just add to this (for the foolish who want to try) that
at least it is required to add the chipset support so that the
kernel can boot on Itanium II. That's all.

But please be sure I'm not going to try this unless I want to give to
my boss a good reason to put me out. 
[ This is not because some people reading this list and
working with me wants to test an hppa box resistance by launching it
from the 5th level I'll try to publish slackware installation
screenshots on an Itanium II ].

But perhaps I didn't understand and you told me you already try it
following David's explanation ?

Regards,

Matthieu

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

Hi,

m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:

> > [...] 
> > As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots
> > of software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java.
> > (It is easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal
> > instruction length compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my
> > knowledge is correct, you therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS
> > directly on the Hardware, but you can run PA-RISC Software in any OS
> > that supports the instruction mapping, maybe one can even run a
> > PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC Machine on Itaniums. (However I
> > don't know any such VM.)
> 
> AFAIK, your knowledge correspond to what I know.
[...]
> But perhaps I didn't understand and you told me you already try it
> following David's explanation ?

I didn't want to argue against you, because I think you're right. :-)

I just wanted to clarify the difference between both "legacy"
Architectures that the Itanium claims to support.

Markus

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[n0ano]

Well, Itanium's can sort of run any X86 software.

As David was alluding to there are two ways you can boot an Itanium
box, either with an IA32 kernel (a current Pentium based OS) or an
IA64 kernel.

If you boot an IA32 kernel the CPU will behave as an exact Pentium
processor and execute all Pentium code.  The system will be slower
than comparable Pentium processors but it should work exactly the
same.  (Notice that I say `should', I've never done this, there could
be chipset issues, I don't know of anyone who has done this but it
should work.)

If you boot an IA64 kernel then the CPU can execute IA32 user mode
programs.  This means you can't run IA32 device drivers and it also
means you need a fair amount of kernel support in order to run an
IA32 application so the statement `without further software support'
is a little inaccurate.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 12:51:40PM +0100, Markus Schaber wrote:
>
>...
> 
> However, Itanium chips support X86 Emulation in Hardware, so they can
> run any X86 Software without further software support (however, the
> software is limited to the X86 capabilities regarding Memory Capacity
> etc., and it is _really slow_, every P3/P4/Athlon at the same MHz is
> uncomparable.)
> 
>...

-- 
Don Dugger
"Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
n0ano@n0ano.com
Ph: 303/447-2201

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Grant Grundler]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 11:07:46AM +0100, Matthieu Delahaye wrote:
> Is the Intel's firmware freely distributed or it is
> internal only?

"freeley available" in the sense that it comes with every Merced box.

I understood David's posting to mean Mckinley machines are available
with firmware from other vendors (SGI, HP, Intel, IBM?, et al) and
those systems will (likely) not boot Win98. I highly doubt HP ZX1
machines will but haven't tried and probably never will.

grant

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Christian Groessler]

Hi,

On 03/26/2003 09:25:35 AM MST n0ano wrote:
>
>Well, Itanium's can sort of run any X86 software.
>
>As David was alluding to there are two ways you can boot an Itanium
>box, either with an IA32 kernel (a current Pentium based OS) or an
>IA64 kernel.
>
>If you boot an IA32 kernel the CPU will behave as an exact Pentium
>processor and execute all Pentium code.  The system will be slower
>than comparable Pentium processors but it should work exactly the
>same.  (Notice that I say `should', I've never done this, there could
>be chipset issues, I don't know of anyone who has done this but it
>should work.)

Does the ia32 emulation go that far to also emulate 16bit operation,
iow, could one boot DOS?

regards,
chris

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[n0ano]

Well, it didn't work when I put in a DOS boot floopy and hit the power
button but there could be some EFI magic need to get that to work on
a BigSur, I don't know.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:20:10PM +0100, Christian Groessler wrote:
>
>...
> 
> Does the ia32 emulation go that far to also emulate 16bit operation,
> iow, could one boot DOS?
> 
> regards,
> chris

-- 
Don Dugger
"Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
n0ano@n0ano.com
Ph: 303/447-2201

RE: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Adriano Galano]

> Hi,
>
Hi again:

> m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:
>
> As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
> software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
> easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal
> instruction length
> compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
> therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
> can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
> mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
> Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)
>

Which VM are ported to Linux IA64? Bochs? Virtuozzo? VMWare? Plex86?

Recent Microsoft adquisition
(http://www.connectix.com/fr/about/acquisition_faq.html) is focus in this
sense I think.

Regards,

-Adriano

> Markus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-IA64 mailing list
> Linux-IA64@linuxia64.org
> http://lists.linuxia64.org/lists/listinfo/linux-ia64

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

Hi
> 
> However, Bochs should be easy to port to another platform due to it's
> pure interpreter nature. 
From a Woody/IA-64 box:

~$ apt-cache search bochs
bochs - IA-32 (x86) PC emulator
[snip]

Didn't try it. But a good first step.

Matthieu

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1062 bytes --]

Hello,

"Adriano Galano" <adriano@satec.es> schrieb:

> > [...] maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual
> > PA-RISC Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)
> Which VM are ported to Linux IA64? Bochs? Virtuozzo? VMWare? Plex86?
> Recent Microsoft adquisition
> (http://www.connectix.com/fr/about/acquisition_faq.html) is focus in
> this sense I think.

As far as I know, all those VMs emulate IA32 and not PA-RISC. So I don't
know how this could help in running a PA-RISC OS on an Itanium.

However, Bochs should be easy to port to another platform due to it's
pure interpreter nature. I don't know about Virtuozzo, but VMWare and
Plex86 run at least user-level app code natively, so they have to be
adopted to the IA64 Kern and the mode switching, I think. E. G. VMware
and Plex86 both make use of Kernel Modules / Patches which must be
adopted.

Gruß,
Markus

-- 
Schabi's Flohmarkt: http://schabi.de/flohmarkt/

Der Dienstweg ist die Verbindung der Sackgasse mit dem Holzweg!
[DoLi in unibwm.studium]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Christian Groessler]

Hi,

On 03/26/2003 09:25:35 AM MST n0ano wrote:
>
>Well, Itanium's can sort of run any X86 software.
>
>As David was alluding to there are two ways you can boot an Itanium
>box, either with an IA32 kernel (a current Pentium based OS) or an
>IA64 kernel.
>
>If you boot an IA32 kernel the CPU will behave as an exact Pentium
>processor and execute all Pentium code.  The system will be slower
>than comparable Pentium processors but it should work exactly the
>same.  (Notice that I say `should', I've never done this, there could
>be chipset issues, I don't know of anyone who has done this but it
>should work.)

Does the ia32 emulation go that far to also emulate 16bit operation,
iow, could one boot DOS?

regards,
chris

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Christian Groessler]

Hi,

On 03/26/2003 09:25:35 AM MST n0ano wrote:
>
>Well, Itanium's can sort of run any X86 software.
>
>As David was alluding to there are two ways you can boot an Itanium
>box, either with an IA32 kernel (a current Pentium based OS) or an
>IA64 kernel.
>
>If you boot an IA32 kernel the CPU will behave as an exact Pentium
>processor and execute all Pentium code.  The system will be slower
>than comparable Pentium processors but it should work exactly the
>same.  (Notice that I say `should', I've never done this, there could
>be chipset issues, I don't know of anyone who has done this but it
>should work.)

Does the ia32 emulation go that far to also emulate 16bit operation,
iow, could one boot DOS?

regards,
chris

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[n0ano]

Well, it didn't work when I put in a DOS boot floopy and hit the power
button but there could be some EFI magic need to get that to work on
a BigSur, I don't know.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:20:10PM +0100, Christian Groessler wrote:
>
>...
> 
> Does the ia32 emulation go that far to also emulate 16bit operation,
> iow, could one boot DOS?
> 
> regards,
> chris

-- 
Don Dugger
"Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
n0ano@n0ano.com
Ph: 303/447-2201

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[n0ano]

Well, it didn't work when I put in a DOS boot floopy and hit the power
button but there could be some EFI magic need to get that to work on
a BigSur, I don't know.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 06:20:10PM +0100, Christian Groessler wrote:
>
>...
> 
> Does the ia32 emulation go that far to also emulate 16bit operation,
> iow, could one boot DOS?
> 
> regards,
> chris

-- 
Don Dugger
"Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
n0ano@n0ano.com
Ph: 303/447-2201

[parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano wrote:
> Hi all:
> 
> I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping. That's mean that I
> can use Linux for PA/RISC (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in a Itanium 2
> computer?

No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64 box, just like
you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.

-- 
"It's not Hollywood.  War is real, war is primarily not about defeat or
victory, it is about death.  I've seen thousands and thousands of dead bodies.
Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this subject?" -- Robert Fisk

[parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano wrote:
> Hi all:
> 
> I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping. That's mean that I
> can use Linux for PA/RISC (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in a Itanium 2
> computer?

No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64 box, just like
you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.

-- 
"It's not Hollywood.  War is real, war is primarily not about defeat or
victory, it is about death.  I've seen thousands and thousands of dead bodies.
Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this subject?" -- Robert Fisk

[parisc-linux] RE: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Adriano Galano]

Hi Matthew and *:

> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano wrote:
> > Hi all:
> >
> > I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping.
> That's mean that I
> > can use Linux for PA/RISC (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in
> a Itanium 2
> > computer?
>
> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64 box,
> just like
> you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.
>

Sorry for my newbie questions but:

If IPF support PA-RISC mapping is not easy to "port" the PA/RISC Linux,
excluding architectural changes in the chipset or booting process?

How HP/UX v 11.6 could be offer compatibility between PA/RISC and Itanium 2
systems?

How "exact" is the PA-RISC mapping on the IA-64 core?


> --
> "It's not Hollywood.  War is real, war is primarily not about
> defeat or
> victory, it is about death.  I've seen thousands and
> thousands of dead bodies.
> Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this
> subject?" -- Robert Fisk

Regards,

-Adriano (bryam)
--
Adriano M. Galano Diez
System & Network Engineer
http://www.satec.es
Phone: (+34) 917 089 000
Sourceforge.NET Linux Kernel Foundry Guide http://sf.net/foundry/linuxkernel

[parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 01:23:32PM +0100, Adriano Galano wrote:
> If IPF support PA-RISC mapping is not easy to "port" the PA/RISC Linux,
> excluding architectural changes in the chipset or booting process?

Why would you want to?  ia64 already has its own perfectly good Linux port.

> How HP/UX v 11.6 could be offer compatibility between PA/RISC and Itanium 2
> systems?

That's `11i v1.6'.  Quoting from
http://www.hp.com/products1/unix/operating/choice/hp-ux11i_details.html

	PA-RISC binary compatibility

  HP-UX 11i version 1.6 includes the Aries dynamic code translation
  technology as an integrated component. Aries is built on the close
  relationship between the PA-RISC and Intel Itanium instruction sets
  and provides binary compatibility for PA-RISC binaries on the Itanium
  processor family. Aries can be used where performance is not critical
  or where it is not possible to create a native Itanium processor
  family binary.

> How "exact" is the PA-RISC mapping on the IA-64 core?

Not particularly close.  If you look at the assembly language level,
there's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of differences too.

-- 
"It's not Hollywood.  War is real, war is primarily not about defeat or
victory, it is about death.  I've seen thousands and thousands of dead bodies.
Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this subject?" -- Robert Fisk

[parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 01:23:32PM +0100, Adriano Galano wrote:
> If IPF support PA-RISC mapping is not easy to "port" the PA/RISC Linux,
> excluding architectural changes in the chipset or booting process?

Why would you want to?  ia64 already has its own perfectly good Linux port.

> How HP/UX v 11.6 could be offer compatibility between PA/RISC and Itanium 2
> systems?

That's `11i v1.6'.  Quoting from
http://www.hp.com/products1/unix/operating/choice/hp-ux11i_details.html

	PA-RISC binary compatibility

  HP-UX 11i version 1.6 includes the Aries dynamic code translation
  technology as an integrated component. Aries is built on the close
  relationship between the PA-RISC and Intel Itanium instruction sets
  and provides binary compatibility for PA-RISC binaries on the Itanium
  processor family. Aries can be used where performance is not critical
  or where it is not possible to create a native Itanium processor
  family binary.

> How "exact" is the PA-RISC mapping on the IA-64 core?

Not particularly close.  If you look at the assembly language level,
there's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of differences too.

-- 
"It's not Hollywood.  War is real, war is primarily not about defeat or
victory, it is about death.  I've seen thousands and thousands of dead bodies.
Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this subject?" -- Robert Fisk

[parisc-linux] RE: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Adriano Galano]

Hi Matthew and *:

> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano wrote:
> > Hi all:
> >
> > I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping.
> That's mean that I
> > can use Linux for PA/RISC (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in
> a Itanium 2
> > computer?
>
> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64 box,
> just like
> you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.
>

Sorry for my newbie questions but:

If IPF support PA-RISC mapping is not easy to "port" the PA/RISC Linux,
excluding architectural changes in the chipset or booting process?

How HP/UX v 11.6 could be offer compatibility between PA/RISC and Itanium 2
systems?

How "exact" is the PA-RISC mapping on the IA-64 core?


> --
> "It's not Hollywood.  War is real, war is primarily not about
> defeat or
> victory, it is about death.  I've seen thousands and
> thousands of dead bodies.
> Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this
> subject?" -- Robert Fisk

Regards,

-Adriano (bryam)
--
Adriano M. Galano Diez
System & Network Engineer
http://www.satec.es
Phone: (+34) 917 089 000
Sourceforge.NET Linux Kernel Foundry Guide http://sf.net/foundry/linuxkernel

[parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[David Mosberger]

>>>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:10:37 +0000, Matthew Wilcox <willy@debian.org> said:

  Matthew> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano
  Matthew> wrote:
  >> Hi all:

  >> I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping. That's
  >> mean that I can use Linux for PA/RISC
  >> (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in a Itanium 2 computer?

  Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
  Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.

Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux and
windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2 if
you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.

	--david

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:19:08AM -0800, David Mosberger wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:10:37 +0000, Matthew Wilcox <willy@debian.org> said:
> 
>   Matthew> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano
>   Matthew> wrote:
>   >> Hi all:
> 
>   >> I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping. That's
>   >> mean that I can use Linux for PA/RISC
>   >> (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in a Itanium 2 computer?
> 
>   Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
>   Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.
> 
> Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux and
> windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2 if
> you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.

...And perhaps you don't forget to add support for the chipset in the
x86/hppa kernel. 

Is the Intel's firmware freely distributed or it is
internal only?

Matthieu

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

Hi,

m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:

> >   Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
> >   Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64
> >   box.
> > Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux
> > and windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2
> > if you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.
> ...And perhaps you don't forget to add support for the chipset in the
> x86/hppa kernel. 

You definitely need IA64 Linux to make real use of an Itanium2 Machine.
(I was able to "play" on an HP 4-Way machine for some weeks.)

However, Itanium chips support X86 Emulation in Hardware, so they can
run any X86 Software without further software support (however, the
software is limited to the X86 capabilities regarding Memory Capacity
etc., and it is _really slow_, every P3/P4/Athlon at the same MHz is
uncomparable.)

As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal instruction length
compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)

Markus

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

> You definitely need IA64 Linux to make real use of an Itanium2 Machine.
> (I was able to "play" on an HP 4-Way machine for some weeks.)

I wasn't speaking about real use. Just dirty things. I was also reacting
with David's previous mail.

> [...] 
> As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
> software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
> easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal instruction length
> compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
> therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
> can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
> mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
> Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)

AFAIK, your knowledge correspond to what I know. Never test hppa
applications, but the intel compiler I had was using 32bits libraries. I
had to extract some of them for my PC to move them on the Itanium. 


So as I said before, I was reacting to David's mail explaining with some
firmware modifications it was possible to do this with an Itanium I,
and he wasn't sure for an Itanium II. Or it is urgent for me to find a
dictionnary. I just add to this (for the foolish who want to try) that
at least it is required to add the chipset support so that the
kernel can boot on Itanium II. That's all.

But please be sure I'm not going to try this unless I want to give to
my boss a good reason to put me out. 
[ This is not because some people reading this list and
working with me wants to test an hppa box resistance by launching it
from the 5th level I'll try to publish slackware installation
screenshots on an Itanium II ].

But perhaps I didn't understand and you told me you already try it
following David's explanation ?

Regards,

Matthieu

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

Hi,

m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:

> > [...] 
> > As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots
> > of software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java.
> > (It is easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal
> > instruction length compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my
> > knowledge is correct, you therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS
> > directly on the Hardware, but you can run PA-RISC Software in any OS
> > that supports the instruction mapping, maybe one can even run a
> > PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC Machine on Itaniums. (However I
> > don't know any such VM.)
> 
> AFAIK, your knowledge correspond to what I know.
[...]
> But perhaps I didn't understand and you told me you already try it
> following David's explanation ?

I didn't want to argue against you, because I think you're right. :-)

I just wanted to clarify the difference between both "legacy"
Architectures that the Itanium claims to support.

Markus

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

Hi,

m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:

> > [...] 
> > As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots
> > of software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java.
> > (It is easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal
> > instruction length compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my
> > knowledge is correct, you therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS
> > directly on the Hardware, but you can run PA-RISC Software in any OS
> > that supports the instruction mapping, maybe one can even run a
> > PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC Machine on Itaniums. (However I
> > don't know any such VM.)
> 
> AFAIK, your knowledge correspond to what I know.
[...]
> But perhaps I didn't understand and you told me you already try it
> following David's explanation ?

I didn't want to argue against you, because I think you're right. :-)

I just wanted to clarify the difference between both "legacy"
Architectures that the Itanium claims to support.

Markus

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

> You definitely need IA64 Linux to make real use of an Itanium2 Machine.
> (I was able to "play" on an HP 4-Way machine for some weeks.)

I wasn't speaking about real use. Just dirty things. I was also reacting
with David's previous mail.

> [...] 
> As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
> software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
> easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal instruction length
> compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
> therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
> can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
> mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
> Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)

AFAIK, your knowledge correspond to what I know. Never test hppa
applications, but the intel compiler I had was using 32bits libraries. I
had to extract some of them for my PC to move them on the Itanium. 


So as I said before, I was reacting to David's mail explaining with some
firmware modifications it was possible to do this with an Itanium I,
and he wasn't sure for an Itanium II. Or it is urgent for me to find a
dictionnary. I just add to this (for the foolish who want to try) that
at least it is required to add the chipset support so that the
kernel can boot on Itanium II. That's all.

But please be sure I'm not going to try this unless I want to give to
my boss a good reason to put me out. 
[ This is not because some people reading this list and
working with me wants to test an hppa box resistance by launching it
from the 5th level I'll try to publish slackware installation
screenshots on an Itanium II ].

But perhaps I didn't understand and you told me you already try it
following David's explanation ?

Regards,

Matthieu

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[n0ano]

Well, Itanium's can sort of run any X86 software.

As David was alluding to there are two ways you can boot an Itanium
box, either with an IA32 kernel (a current Pentium based OS) or an
IA64 kernel.

If you boot an IA32 kernel the CPU will behave as an exact Pentium
processor and execute all Pentium code.  The system will be slower
than comparable Pentium processors but it should work exactly the
same.  (Notice that I say `should', I've never done this, there could
be chipset issues, I don't know of anyone who has done this but it
should work.)

If you boot an IA64 kernel then the CPU can execute IA32 user mode
programs.  This means you can't run IA32 device drivers and it also
means you need a fair amount of kernel support in order to run an
IA32 application so the statement `without further software support'
is a little inaccurate.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 12:51:40PM +0100, Markus Schaber wrote:
>
>...
> 
> However, Itanium chips support X86 Emulation in Hardware, so they can
> run any X86 Software without further software support (however, the
> software is limited to the X86 capabilities regarding Memory Capacity
> etc., and it is _really slow_, every P3/P4/Athlon at the same MHz is
> uncomparable.)
> 
>...

-- 
Don Dugger
"Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
n0ano@n0ano.com
Ph: 303/447-2201

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[n0ano]

Well, Itanium's can sort of run any X86 software.

As David was alluding to there are two ways you can boot an Itanium
box, either with an IA32 kernel (a current Pentium based OS) or an
IA64 kernel.

If you boot an IA32 kernel the CPU will behave as an exact Pentium
processor and execute all Pentium code.  The system will be slower
than comparable Pentium processors but it should work exactly the
same.  (Notice that I say `should', I've never done this, there could
be chipset issues, I don't know of anyone who has done this but it
should work.)

If you boot an IA64 kernel then the CPU can execute IA32 user mode
programs.  This means you can't run IA32 device drivers and it also
means you need a fair amount of kernel support in order to run an
IA32 application so the statement `without further software support'
is a little inaccurate.

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 12:51:40PM +0100, Markus Schaber wrote:
>
>...
> 
> However, Itanium chips support X86 Emulation in Hardware, so they can
> run any X86 Software without further software support (however, the
> software is limited to the X86 capabilities regarding Memory Capacity
> etc., and it is _really slow_, every P3/P4/Athlon at the same MHz is
> uncomparable.)
> 
>...

-- 
Don Dugger
"Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
n0ano@n0ano.com
Ph: 303/447-2201

RE: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Adriano Galano]

> Hi,
>
Hi again:

> m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:
>
> As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
> software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
> easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal
> instruction length
> compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
> therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
> can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
> mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
> Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)
>

Which VM are ported to Linux IA64? Bochs? Virtuozzo? VMWare? Plex86?

Recent Microsoft adquisition
(http://www.connectix.com/fr/about/acquisition_faq.html) is focus in this
sense I think.

Regards,

-Adriano

> Markus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-IA64 mailing list
> Linux-IA64@linuxia64.org
> http://lists.linuxia64.org/lists/listinfo/linux-ia64

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1062 bytes --]

Hello,

"Adriano Galano" <adriano@satec.es> schrieb:

> > [...] maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual
> > PA-RISC Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)
> Which VM are ported to Linux IA64? Bochs? Virtuozzo? VMWare? Plex86?
> Recent Microsoft adquisition
> (http://www.connectix.com/fr/about/acquisition_faq.html) is focus in
> this sense I think.

As far as I know, all those VMs emulate IA32 and not PA-RISC. So I don't
know how this could help in running a PA-RISC OS on an Itanium.

However, Bochs should be easy to port to another platform due to it's
pure interpreter nature. I don't know about Virtuozzo, but VMWare and
Plex86 run at least user-level app code natively, so they have to be
adopted to the IA64 Kern and the mode switching, I think. E. G. VMware
and Plex86 both make use of Kernel Modules / Patches which must be
adopted.

Gruß,
Markus

-- 
Schabi's Flohmarkt: http://schabi.de/flohmarkt/

Der Dienstweg ist die Verbindung der Sackgasse mit dem Holzweg!
[DoLi in unibwm.studium]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1062 bytes --]

Hello,

"Adriano Galano" <adriano@satec.es> schrieb:

> > [...] maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual
> > PA-RISC Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)
> Which VM are ported to Linux IA64? Bochs? Virtuozzo? VMWare? Plex86?
> Recent Microsoft adquisition
> (http://www.connectix.com/fr/about/acquisition_faq.html) is focus in
> this sense I think.

As far as I know, all those VMs emulate IA32 and not PA-RISC. So I don't
know how this could help in running a PA-RISC OS on an Itanium.

However, Bochs should be easy to port to another platform due to it's
pure interpreter nature. I don't know about Virtuozzo, but VMWare and
Plex86 run at least user-level app code natively, so they have to be
adopted to the IA64 Kern and the mode switching, I think. E. G. VMware
and Plex86 both make use of Kernel Modules / Patches which must be
adopted.

Gruß,
Markus

-- 
Schabi's Flohmarkt: http://schabi.de/flohmarkt/

Der Dienstweg ist die Verbindung der Sackgasse mit dem Holzweg!
[DoLi in unibwm.studium]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

Hi
> 
> However, Bochs should be easy to port to another platform due to it's
> pure interpreter nature. 

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

Hi
> 
> However, Bochs should be easy to port to another platform due to it's
> pure interpreter nature. 
>From a Woody/IA-64 box:

~$ apt-cache search bochs
bochs - IA-32 (x86) PC emulator
[snip]

Didn't try it. But a good first step.

Matthieu

RE: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Adriano Galano]

> Hi,
>
Hi again:

> m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:
>
> As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
> software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
> easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal
> instruction length
> compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
> therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
> can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
> mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
> Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)
>

Which VM are ported to Linux IA64? Bochs? Virtuozzo? VMWare? Plex86?

Recent Microsoft adquisition
(http://www.connectix.com/fr/about/acquisition_faq.html) is focus in this
sense I think.

Regards,

-Adriano

> Markus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-IA64 mailing list
> Linux-IA64@linuxia64.org
> http://lists.linuxia64.org/lists/listinfo/linux-ia64

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Markus Schaber]

Hi,

m.delahaye@esiee.fr (Matthieu Delahaye) wrote:

> >   Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
> >   Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64
> >   box.
> > Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux
> > and windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2
> > if you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.
> ...And perhaps you don't forget to add support for the chipset in the
> x86/hppa kernel. 

You definitely need IA64 Linux to make real use of an Itanium2 Machine.
(I was able to "play" on an HP 4-Way machine for some weeks.)

However, Itanium chips support X86 Emulation in Hardware, so they can
run any X86 Software without further software support (however, the
software is limited to the X86 capabilities regarding Memory Capacity
etc., and it is _really slow_, every P3/P4/Athlon at the same MHz is
uncomparable.)

As far as I know, the PA-Risc instruction mapping is done with lots of
software help. The concept is a bit like JIT-Compilers in Java. (It is
easier to do this when having a RISC code with equal instruction length
compared to ugly X86 code.) As long as my knowledge is correct, you
therefore cannot run any PA-RISC OS directly on the Hardware, but you
can run PA-RISC Software in any OS that supports the instruction
mapping, maybe one can even run a PA-RISC OS inside a virtual PA-RISC
Machine on Itaniums. (However I don't know any such VM.)

Markus

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Grant Grundler]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 11:07:46AM +0100, Matthieu Delahaye wrote:
> Is the Intel's firmware freely distributed or it is
> internal only?

"freeley available" in the sense that it comes with every Merced box.

I understood David's posting to mean Mckinley machines are available
with firmware from other vendors (SGI, HP, Intel, IBM?, et al) and
those systems will (likely) not boot Win98. I highly doubt HP ZX1
machines will but haven't tried and probably never will.

grant

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Grant Grundler]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 11:07:46AM +0100, Matthieu Delahaye wrote:
> Is the Intel's firmware freely distributed or it is
> internal only?

"freeley available" in the sense that it comes with every Merced box.

I understood David's posting to mean Mckinley machines are available
with firmware from other vendors (SGI, HP, Intel, IBM?, et al) and
those systems will (likely) not boot Win98. I highly doubt HP ZX1
machines will but haven't tried and probably never will.

grant

Re: [parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[Matthieu Delahaye]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:19:08AM -0800, David Mosberger wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:10:37 +0000, Matthew Wilcox <willy@debian.org> said:
> 
>   Matthew> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano
>   Matthew> wrote:
>   >> Hi all:
> 
>   >> I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping. That's
>   >> mean that I can use Linux for PA/RISC
>   >> (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in a Itanium 2 computer?
> 
>   Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
>   Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.
> 
> Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux and
> windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2 if
> you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.

...And perhaps you don't forget to add support for the chipset in the
x86/hppa kernel. 

Is the Intel's firmware freely distributed or it is
internal only?

Matthieu

[parisc-linux] Re: [Linux-ia64] Linux, Itanium and PA/RISC

[David Mosberger]

>>>>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:10:37 +0000, Matthew Wilcox <willy@debian.org> said:

  Matthew> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:41:18AM +0100, Adriano Galano
  Matthew> wrote:
  >> Hi all:

  >> I read that IA-64 support PA-RISC instruction mapping. That's
  >> mean that I can use Linux for PA/RISC
  >> (http://www.parisc-linux.org/) in a Itanium 2 computer?

  Matthew> No.  You certainly can't run a PA-RISC kernel on an IA64
  Matthew> box, just like you can't run an x86 kernel on an ia64 box.

Ugh, that's not strictly true.  You definitely can boot x86 linux and
windows 98 on Itanium.  I believe the same is true for Itanium 2 if
you have Intel's firmware, though I have never tried that myself.

	--david