Firewire Audio Card Support

Firewire Audio Card Support

[Olaf Christ]

Hi,

as the owner of a firewire audio card (Motu 828mkII) I was disappointed when 
trying to use it under linux. Asking Motu to provide tech docs and/or linux 
drivers is useless: "We will possibly release linux drivers in the future, 
but we never release any kind of technical documentation."
Is there any effort to join forces for putting pressure on the manufacturers 
yet? I am willing to create an address list ordered by audio card 
manufacturer/model to make the manufacturers realize there is a need for 
linux support.

Any comments?

Olaf



On Thursday 18 November 2004 14:01, derek holzer wrote:
> Of course, the Firewire subsystem for Linux works fine. But AFAIK there
> are no drivers existing for any firewire audio cards. Bug the various
> manufacurers to release more technical info and they might eventually
> show up.
>
> d.
>
> Victor LaLoggia wrote:
> > Hello Frank;
> >
> >   Thank you for your response, and I do not mean to be contrary, but what
> > about the work the folks at http://www.linux1394.org/ are doing?
> >
> >   I see that their subsystem has been included Linux kernel sources since
> > version 2.3.40.  Does the subsystem not work?
> >
> >   Thanks,
> >   vic
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frank Barknecht <fbar-T1uUCcFPrxNAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>
> > Sent: Nov 15, 2004 12:14 PM
> > To: linux-audio-user-oG0YroN0ZiqENrSoib9kfje48wsgrGvP@public.gmane.org
> > Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Using Linux Laptop for Live Performance
> >
> > Hallo,
> >
> > Victor LaLoggia hat gesagt: // Victor LaLoggia wrote:
> >>  I am just beginning my research into the available software and
> >>  hardware, and would greatly appreciate any information. Especially
> >>  on hardware - what would be the best usb/ firewire interface for
> >>  live performance?
> >
> > No Firewire audio yet on Linux. The best in your case is PCMCIA, which
> > has the lowest latency. VX-Pocket or RME cards are good choices. Also
> > try, if your internal soundcard is enough.
> >
> > Ciao

Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Steve Harris]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 03:15:52 +0100, Olaf Christ wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> as the owner of a firewire audio card (Motu 828mkII) I was disappointed when 
> trying to use it under linux. Asking Motu to provide tech docs and/or linux 
> drivers is useless: "We will possibly release linux drivers in the future, 
> but we never release any kind of technical documentation."

That is actually a big improvemnt. When we (linuaudio.org) were demoing at
Sounds Live in London earlier this year, the were telling thier users that
they had no intention of supporting linux, and wouldn't release docs.

Though with the number of thier users we were sending to them to ask, I
guess they were getting a bit concerned :)

- Steve

> Is there any effort to join forces for putting pressure on the manufacturers 
> yet? I am willing to create an address list ordered by audio card 
> manufacturer/model to make the manufacturers realize there is a need for 
> linux support.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Olaf
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday 18 November 2004 14:01, derek holzer wrote:
> > Of course, the Firewire subsystem for Linux works fine. But AFAIK there
> > are no drivers existing for any firewire audio cards. Bug the various
> > manufacurers to release more technical info and they might eventually
> > show up.
> >
> > d.
> >
> > Victor LaLoggia wrote:
> > > Hello Frank;
> > >
> > >   Thank you for your response, and I do not mean to be contrary, but what
> > > about the work the folks at http://www.linux1394.org/ are doing?
> > >
> > >   I see that their subsystem has been included Linux kernel sources since
> > > version 2.3.40.  Does the subsystem not work?
> > >
> > >   Thanks,
> > >   vic
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Frank Barknecht <fbar-T1uUCcFPrxNAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>
> > > Sent: Nov 15, 2004 12:14 PM
> > > To: linux-audio-user-oG0YroN0ZiqENrSoib9kfje48wsgrGvP@public.gmane.org
> > > Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Using Linux Laptop for Live Performance
> > >
> > > Hallo,
> > >
> > > Victor LaLoggia hat gesagt: // Victor LaLoggia wrote:
> > >>  I am just beginning my research into the available software and
> > >>  hardware, and would greatly appreciate any information. Especially
> > >>  on hardware - what would be the best usb/ firewire interface for
> > >>  live performance?
> > >
> > > No Firewire audio yet on Linux. The best in your case is PCMCIA, which
> > > has the lowest latency. VX-Pocket or RME cards are good choices. Also
> > > try, if your internal soundcard is enough.
> > >
> > > Ciao
> 
> 
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Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Amaury Jacquot]

Steve Harris wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2004 at 03:15:52 +0100, Olaf Christ wrote:
> 
>>Hi,
>>
>>as the owner of a firewire audio card (Motu 828mkII) I was disappointed when 
>>trying to use it under linux. Asking Motu to provide tech docs and/or linux 
>>drivers is useless: "We will possibly release linux drivers in the future, 
>>but we never release any kind of technical documentation."
> 
> 
> That is actually a big improvemnt. When we (linuaudio.org) were demoing at
> Sounds Live in London earlier this year, the were telling thier users that
> they had no intention of supporting linux, and wouldn't release docs.
> 
> Though with the number of thier users we were sending to them to ask, I
> guess they were getting a bit concerned :)
> 
> - Steve

what's the rationale behind the "we won't release any docs" nonsense ?

someone needs to come out with a professionnal libre-design sound 
card... (can't be that hard)

Amaury


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Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Giuliano Pochini]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Amaury Jacquot wrote:

> > That is actually a big improvemnt. When we (linuaudio.org) were demoing at
> > Sounds Live in London earlier this year, the were telling thier users that
> > they had no intention of supporting linux, and wouldn't release docs.
> >
> > Though with the number of thier users we were sending to them to ask, I
> > guess they were getting a bit concerned :)
> >
> > - Steve
>
> what's the rationale behind the "we won't release any docs" nonsense ?
>
> someone needs to come out with a professionnal libre-design sound
> card... (can't be that hard)

No, it's not hard because there are a lot of skilled people around, but
the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
source" graphic card recently on lkml.


--
Giuliano.


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Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Amaury Jacquot]

Giuliano Pochini wrote:

> 
> No, it's not hard because there are a lot of skilled people around, but
> the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
> source" graphic card recently on lkml.

I know about the project in question, as I participate in the discussion 
about it.
an open design sound card would be even easier to design... an atmel 
microcontroller and a pair of ADC / DAC chips should be enough to desing 
something with a USB port.
now for the firewire thing, I guess a xilinx chip can do it, and those 
are not that expensive either...


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Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Pieter Palmers]

Amaury Jacquot wrote:

> Giuliano Pochini wrote:
>
>>
>> No, it's not hard because there are a lot of skilled people around, but
>> the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
>> source" graphic card recently on lkml.
>
>
> I know about the project in question, as I participate in the 
> discussion about it.
> an open design sound card would be even easier to design... an atmel 
> microcontroller and a pair of ADC / DAC chips should be enough to 
> desing something with a USB port.
> now for the firewire thing, I guess a xilinx chip can do it, and those 
> are not that expensive either...

I don't think it's possible to obtain the same price vs performance with 
a self-developed device. The skills won't be a problem indeed, but as 
most of us  are doing this in our spare time, I don't think we'll find 
the time to keep up with commercial specs. But the major problem would 
be the manufacturing cost as we won't have the mass-production benefits 
commercial companies have.

Why don't we support the manufacturers that do support us? After all, 
there are some that provide us with what we need, and I don't see that 
mentioned that often. I'm quite confident that for most needs you can 
find a card from a manufacturer that supports ALSA development. Correct 
me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that for example RME and ESI 
actively support the development of ALSA drivers for their producs.

It might be more usefull to compile a list of Linux-friendly 
manufacturers and make some noise about such a list. This might be 
something for the linuxaudio.org people?

Greets,

Pieter Palmers


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Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Takashi Iwai]

At Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:54:58 +0000,
Pieter Palmers wrote:
> 
> Why don't we support the manufacturers that do support us? After all, 
> there are some that provide us with what we need, and I don't see that 
> mentioned that often. I'm quite confident that for most needs you can 
> find a card from a manufacturer that supports ALSA development. Correct 
> me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that for example RME and ESI 
> actively support the development of ALSA drivers for their producs.

Well, the ALSA support shall be achieved sooner or later :)
But it's true that there is still a significant gap between the
product release and the support on Linux.
Once people recognize the importance of Linux desktop, this gap will
be decreaed, I guess.

My biggest concern is the chaos like what has happend on USB
audio/midi (or look at ACPI).  I really hope such a theatrical
confusion won't happen on fireware audio.  The precised specification
doesn't always lead to a good result :)


Takashi

Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Lee Revell]

On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 16:09 +0100, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
> No, it's not hard because there are a lot of skilled people around, but
> the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
> source" graphic card recently on lkml.

And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
hardware.

http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/23/292

I got one "right on, brother" response via private mail and that was it.
But then again half the kernel guys don't have sound cards in their
machines ;-)

Lee



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Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Jens M Andreasen]

On tor, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 16:09 +0100, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
> > No, it's not hard because there are a lot of skilled people around, but
> > the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
> > source" graphic card recently on lkml.
> 
> And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
> waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
> hardware.
> 
> http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/23/292

That was one h*ll of a comment! But I'll chime in: The problem is not 
production cost. The problem is (from a salesmans point of view) what
are people willing to pay? And ..

People pay for ease of use! It is not so different from using session-
players that know their stuff. At least not costwise.

[ Of course, One of us could learn the Cello (given time ..), but
singing the soprano is a task I would not like to know ;) ]

> I got one "right on, brother" response via private mail and that was it.
> But then again half the kernel guys don't have sound cards in their
> machines ;-)

So much for the "Mp3 is killing the Industri" myth then? :))

> 
> Lee
> 
-- 
Jens M Andreasen <jens.andreasen@chello.se>



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Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Jan Depner]

That is a damn good rant!  I agree completely.  Unfortunately I only do
software :-/

Jan

On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 14:16, Lee Revell wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 16:09 +0100, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
> > No, it's not hard because there are a lot of skilled people around, but
> > the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
> > source" graphic card recently on lkml.
> 
> And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
> waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
> hardware.
> 
> http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/23/292
> 
> I got one "right on, brother" response via private mail and that was it.
> But then again half the kernel guys don't have sound cards in their
> machines ;-)
> 
> Lee
> 



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Re: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Mark Knecht]

I've had this sort of project on my mind for a year or two. (Since my
first run in with the HDSP 9652 under Linux in early 2003.) I am,
unlike I think many people here, a hardware designer by trade. Mostly
chips, but my engineers had done boards for our chips.

Coincedentally I was laid off yesterday and am sitting at home
thinking about what to do with myself during my current delimma...


On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:49:29 -0600, Jan Depner <eviltwin69-9jPBLdyrytDk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> That is a damn good rant!  I agree completely.  Unfortunately I only do
> software :-/
> 
> Jan
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 14:16, Lee Revell wrote:
> > On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 16:09 +0100, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
> > > No, it's not hard because there are a lot of skilled people around, but
> > > the card would be expensive. There was a thread about a project of "open
> > > source" graphic card recently on lkml.
> >
> > And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
> > waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
> > hardware.
> >
> > http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/23/292
> >
> > I got one "right on, brother" response via private mail and that was it.
> > But then again half the kernel guys don't have sound cards in their
> > machines ;-)
> >
> > Lee
> >
> 
>

Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Florian Schmidt]

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:54:27 -0800
Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've had this sort of project on my mind for a year or two. (Since my
> first run in with the HDSP 9652 under Linux in early 2003.) I am,
> unlike I think many people here, a hardware designer by trade. Mostly
> chips, but my engineers had done boards for our chips.
> 
> Coincedentally I was laid off yesterday and am sitting at home
> thinking about what to do with myself during my current delimma...

Hi,

maybe you can tell us then how much the components for such a simple pcm
only soundcard would cost? What's nessecary? And i mean really simple. Just
a single full duplex stereo pcm device. No mixer (who needs a mixer? Real
men have their mixer sitting in a rack :))

- 2 AD's and 2 DA's 
- a dsp (is it really nessecary?)
- some memory for the buffers
- a pci board
- pci logic (raising irq's, doing the transfers)
- some "glue"

i may be naive though as i really have no idea about the hw side of things.
Especially it gets tricky when allowing all kinds of different sample
rates/buffer sizes, etc. And of course i suppose the price is heavily
dependent on the quality of the components. But what would be lower and
upper bounds for the components alone? And what kind of work is nessecary
(how many manhours)

- to design the thing

- to build the thing

?

Florian Schmidt


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Re: Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Jussi Laako]

On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:

> And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
> waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
> hardware.

I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
can't see who would pay the expenses of the development. Software and
hardware required to develop a proper hardware costs thousands of euros.
Also each prototype manufacturing of the PCB is about 500€, and
components a few hundred (because not buying >1000 each). So yeah, it
would be possible for about 10000€ if not counting price for the work. I
don't have, nor willing to spend that kind of money for development of
open piece of hardware. Someone else would of course collect the money
from the sales of such hardware.

Software is different thing, you are mostly spending just time. I've
still put a few thousand euros of pure money to my software projects.
It's a different thing is someone is willing to sponsor such a project.


-- 
Jussi Laako <jussi.laako-+kynuGyeZW3HOG6cAo2yLw@public.gmane.org>

Re: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Lee Revell]

On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:12 +0200, Jussi Laako wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> 
> > And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
> > waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
> > hardware.
> 
> I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
> my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
> can't see who would pay the expenses of the development.

OK maybe you would not make a killing.  I guess the real question is if
every LAU buys it, then how much do you need to make on each unit to be
worthwhile?  

Compared to doing an open 3D graphics card, it sounds like a pretty good
deal.  Bigger market, higher margins.

Lee

Re: Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Martin Langer]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 01:37:12PM -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 19:12 +0200, Jussi Laako wrote:
> > On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 15:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> > 
> > > And I posted a [possibly OT] rant to that thread about how this was a
> > > waste of time and how you could REALLY make a killing with open sound
> > > hardware.
> > 
> > I've been doing hardware design and device driver development as part of
> > my day work. Designing open source hardware is possible in theory, but I
> > can't see who would pay the expenses of the development.
> 
> OK maybe you would not make a killing.  I guess the real question is if
> every LAU buys it, then how much do you need to make on each unit to be
> worthwhile?  
> 
> Compared to doing an open 3D graphics card, it sounds like a pretty good
> deal.  Bigger market, higher margins.

Isn't it better to knock at the door of company xy and say: We're helping in
development a card with you, but everything has to be open. This sounds more
realistic to me than those 100% free solutions which will never ever be
finished;)

BTW, if someone has the skills he can build free audio/midi hardware today:
http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp_usb.html

and somewhere I've also seen a project about a fpga based soundcard, but I
don't remember the details. Perhaps it was on http://www.opencores.org/ or
so...


martin


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Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Alsa-devel] Firewire Audio Card Support

[Giuliano Pochini]

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:37:12 -0500
Lee Revell <rlrevell@joe-job.com> wrote:

> Compared to doing an open 3D graphics card, it sounds like a pretty good
> deal.  Bigger market, higher margins.

And it's simpler IMHO. Also you could make a good card compared to
commercial ones, while you can't do a nearly as good gfx card.



--
Giuliano.


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Re: Firewire Audio Card Support

[Pieter Palmers]

Regarding firewire audio support:
We are currently working on a generic driver for DM1000 based firewire 
audio cards by BridgeCo. I don't know if the motu device is based upon 
this chipset. If it is, chances are that the driver will also work for 
you. But at this point the development is still in a very preliminary state.

The good news is that there is a standard for the firewire audio/midi 
transport protocol. This means that the core part of the driver will be 
the same for all firewire devices. The bad news is that the actual setup 
of the device (mixer settings i.e.) doesn't conform to a standard. The 
only problem is that experience learns that not every manufacturer 
implements the standards (correctly).

Regarding the manufacturer support:
The only thing we can do is promote the manufacturers that are willing 
to cooperate. I'll give an overview of my personal experience:
* I had real good experience up till now with ESI (Ego Systems inc). I 
sent some manufacturers using the DM1000 chipset a notification that in 
order to support their product, I would need
a device to fool around with. About two reply's and a few weeks later, I 
received their QuataFire 610 box. Excellent...
* The people at M-Audio also use the DM1000 chipset, and I also 
contacted them. They replied and wanted to provide a device, but they 
modified the reference firmware, and couldn't provide any info on their 
firmware... Maybe this will change once there is a driver available that 
only needs to be adapted for their stuff. I don't know, I still hope 
that this
* Two other company's using the DM1000 in their products and whom I 
contacted were Edirol and Terratec. I din't receive any response from 
them yet, not even a confirmation. The mails were sent more than a month 
ago.
* Another card I would really like to see ALSA support for is the EMU 
DAS range (1820 etc). So I contacted E-MU/Creative Labs to see if they 
were willing the cooperate. The product manager for these products was 
quite enthousiastic. But after 6 months of e-mail traffic the upper 
management descided that they wouldn't give out any info on the DSP. End 
of story.
* My first attempt at driver development was for the Guillemot 
(=Hercules) Maxi Studio ISIS. There was no support at all from 
Guillemot, they wouldn't even reply to emails. I ended up blowing up my 
own ISIS in numerous attempts to figure out the workings of the device. 
My overall advice on Guillemot/Hercules: stay away from them.

To summarize: If I were to buy a card at this point, I would first go 
and check if ESI has a product that fullfills my needs. That is the only 
pressure I can put on manufacturers.

Greets,

Pieter Palmers
freebob.sf.net

Olaf Christ wrote:

>Hi,
>
>as the owner of a firewire audio card (Motu 828mkII) I was disappointed when 
>trying to use it under linux. Asking Motu to provide tech docs and/or linux 
>drivers is useless: "We will possibly release linux drivers in the future, 
>but we never release any kind of technical documentation."
>Is there any effort to join forces for putting pressure on the manufacturers 
>yet? I am willing to create an address list ordered by audio card 
>manufacturer/model to make the manufacturers realize there is a need for 
>linux support.
>
>Any comments?
>
>Olaf
>
>
>
>On Thursday 18 November 2004 14:01, derek holzer wrote:
>  
>
>>Of course, the Firewire subsystem for Linux works fine. But AFAIK there
>>are no drivers existing for any firewire audio cards. Bug the various
>>manufacurers to release more technical info and they might eventually
>>show up.
>>
>>d.
>>
>>Victor LaLoggia wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Hello Frank;
>>>
>>>  Thank you for your response, and I do not mean to be contrary, but what
>>>about the work the folks at http://www.linux1394.org/ are doing?
>>>
>>>  I see that their subsystem has been included Linux kernel sources since
>>>version 2.3.40.  Does the subsystem not work?
>>>
>>>  Thanks,
>>>  vic
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Frank Barknecht <fbar@footils.org>
>>>Sent: Nov 15, 2004 12:14 PM
>>>To: linux-audio-user@music.columbia.edu
>>>Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Using Linux Laptop for Live Performance
>>>
>>>Hallo,
>>>
>>>Victor LaLoggia hat gesagt: // Victor LaLoggia wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>> I am just beginning my research into the available software and
>>>> hardware, and would greatly appreciate any information. Especially
>>>> on hardware - what would be the best usb/ firewire interface for
>>>> live performance?
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>No Firewire audio yet on Linux. The best in your case is PCMCIA, which
>>>has the lowest latency. VX-Pocket or RME cards are good choices. Also
>>>try, if your internal soundcard is enough.
>>>
>>>Ciao
>>>      
>>>
>
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