Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV

Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV

[Allan Klinbail]

Hi Takashi, 

I'll try that for intel8x0, the BIOS has a setting to turn on MPU-401,
and assign address either 300 or 330 so it should work. I'll try it
shortly. 

As for MTP-AV is there a piece of hardware that I can get that's not too
expensive to analyse the data stream.. or maybe some kind of software
interpreter under WinXp so I can help further. TO replace the MTP with a
Midiman device would cost around $1200aud.. so I'd rather buy something
that may get help get it working.

I can confirm to ALSA-DEV list that intel8x0 chip works for SiS 645DX
chipset motherboard for audio and will confirm all MIDI functionality
within the week. 

cheers

Allan Klinbail 





On Mon, 2003-02-03 at 22:55, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> Hi Allan,
> 
> At 03 Feb 2003 18:53:03 +1100,
> Allan Klinbail wrote:
> > 
> > Hi takashi, 
> > 
> > Long time no see. 
> > 
> > I've still got my MTP-AV and am still keen to get it working under
> > linux, so if there is anyway I can help development through testing
> > e.t.c.. let me know. 
>  
> thanks.  MTP still doesn't show their attitude for linux audio scene,
> so the reverse engineering is the only way.  the hardware tests would
> be really apperciated, although, so far, i have no plan until someone
> requests bug-fixes or new features.
> 
> > Also, I ahve a motherboard with a 645DX chipset. The intel8x0 module
> > works fine for audio but I can't seem to get the MIDI port active.
> > 
> > I ahve emailed both alsa-dev and alsa-user with no response. I also
> > searched the archives for any reports of this. 
> > 
> > Below is my modules.conf configuration for this module.. I'm sure the
> > problem lies here. 
> > 
> >  # ALSA portion -SiS onboard sound card
> > alias char-major-116 snd
> > alias snd-card-0 snd-intel8x0
> > options snd-intel8x0 mpu_port="1" ac97_clock="0"
> 
> try mpu_port=0x330 instead.  the valid value is either 0x330 or
> 0x300.
> 
> but i'm not sure whether the midi i/o works on your chipset.
> it's not supported on every intel8x0 chip, and as far as i've tested,
> it works only partially, either midi out or midi in.
> if you have another choice (even a cheap soundcard), it would be
> a better option...
> 
> 
> ciao,
> 
> Takashi




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MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV)

[Takashi Iwai]

Hi Allan,

recently a technical information about emagic unitor8 was revealed,
and it includes a small desription about MTP, too.
there, the initialization sysex is mentionted, so perhaps this may
influence on the behavior of the device.  (also, the smpte sysex is
described!)

before i start coding, i would like to ask you summarize the existing
problems of mtpav driver (which most likely i forgot :)

i hope this time the bugs can be fixed, or at least improved...


ciao,

Takashi


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Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV)

[Martijn Sipkema]

> recently a technical information about emagic unitor8 was revealed,

I suppose this doesn't mention AMT? Can I have this information. It
might contain more than what I already have.

> and it includes a small desription about MTP, too.
> there, the initialization sysex is mentionted, so perhaps this may
> influence on the behavior of the device.  (also, the smpte sysex is
> described!)

I think both devices act as a single MIDI device where the 0xf5 message
that is undefined in the MIDI spec is used for cable selection. Thus the
running status is for the MIDI stream and not per cable. I don't think
these devices use running status on transmitting (to the host at least)
themselves.

> before i start coding, i would like to ask you summarize the existing
> problems of mtpav driver (which most likely i forgot :)
> 
> i hope this time the bugs can be fixed, or at least improved...

Is it possible to open files from the kernel? I'd suggest having support
for devices like the Unitor in user-space to be able to support them on
any serial port if this is not the case.

--ms





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Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV)

[Takashi Iwai]

At Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:05:00 +0100,
Martijn Sipkema wrote:
> 
> > recently a technical information about emagic unitor8 was revealed,
> 
> I suppose this doesn't mention AMT? Can I have this information. It
> might contain more than what I already have.
 
the info appeared in another thread (running-status bug on mtpav):
	http://www.math.tu-berlin.de/~sbartels/unitor/unitor8_doc.txt
the project itself seems dead now...


> > and it includes a small desription about MTP, too.
> > there, the initialization sysex is mentionted, so perhaps this may
> > influence on the behavior of the device.  (also, the smpte sysex is
> > described!)
> 
> I think both devices act as a single MIDI device where the 0xf5 message
> that is undefined in the MIDI spec is used for cable selection. Thus the
> running status is for the MIDI stream and not per cable. I don't think
> these devices use running status on transmitting (to the host at least)
> themselves.

yes, this bug was discussed in another thread.


> 
> > before i start coding, i would like to ask you summarize the existing
> > problems of mtpav driver (which most likely i forgot :)
> > 
> > i hope this time the bugs can be fixed, or at least improved...
> 
> Is it possible to open files from the kernel? I'd suggest having support
> for devices like the Unitor in user-space to be able to support them on
> any serial port if this is not the case.

generally i agree that a user-space driver would be flexible for
serial devices. 
but there is already a working mtpav driver and if only a small amount
of changes would be needed, why not?

the support of usb would be a different thing...


Takashi


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Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV)

[Martijn Sipkema]

[...]
> > I suppose this doesn't mention AMT? Can I have this information. It
> > might contain more than what I already have.
>  
> the info appeared in another thread (running-status bug on mtpav):
> http://www.math.tu-berlin.de/~sbartels/unitor/unitor8_doc.txt
> the project itself seems dead now...

That's the info I already had... :(
I don't see why Emagic won't give the AMT protocol specs...

--ms






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Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV)

[Allan Klinbail]

Hi Takashi

This is fantastic news!! 

I haven't got a working build of MusE probably until later this weekend.
I have to go and engineer a gig later today and I'm sick today so I
can't seem myself doing much till tomorrow.  

Basically it seemed to receive timecode (MIDI CLOCK and MTC) okay from
our earlier testing.
It also would send MIDI to one output port. 
The device stopped seeing all messages when attempts at sending MIDI
output to more than one port occured.(this is where the initialisation
SYSEX probably comes into play)  
MIDI Input was not registering on the computer hence recording did not
work. 

cheers

Allan 


 




On Fri, 2003-02-14 at 01:34, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> Hi Allan,
> 
> recently a technical information about emagic unitor8 was revealed,
> and it includes a small desription about MTP, too.
> there, the initialization sysex is mentionted, so perhaps this may
> influence on the behavior of the device.  (also, the smpte sysex is
> described!)
> 
> before i start coding, i would like to ask you summarize the existing
> problems of mtpav driver (which most likely i forgot :)
> 
> i hope this time the bugs can be fixed, or at least improved...
> 
> 
> ciao,
> 
> Takashi




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Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV)

[Takashi Iwai]

Hi Allan,

At 14 Feb 2003 14:26:19 +1100,
Allan Klinbail wrote:
> 
> The device stopped seeing all messages when attempts at sending MIDI
> output to more than one port occured.(this is where the initialisation
> SYSEX probably comes into play)  

this problem may have been fixed (not perfect but works in most
cases) on cvs recently.   if you have time, please try the cvs
version.


ciao,

Takashi


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Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV) - success

[Allan Klinbail]

Okay Finally I am very very happy.. 

SO far I have only been able to test output (need to setup MIDI hardware
again after a gig) 

>From output using MusE CVS version. 

I have been able to send MIDI output to:

individual ports 
multiple ports relaying different information... 
timecode... MIDI CLOCK, worked , MMC still to be tested

I did not get a good SMPTE lock and the time display on the MTP-AV only
aligned itself properly on stop.. (typical when a sync lock isn't
established properly) both the PC and the MTP-AV were set to a SMTPE
rate of 25 frames per second. 

(I remember we once tested this with a commandline app, I don't have
them anymore .. do you still have them or links to them and we can check
with that rather than MusE as SMPTE probably isn't fully implemented
yet) 


One glitch I noticed was that the driver seemed to send the note
information to all ports when the sequence I had only sent to one of the
MTPAV ports... When I assigned a second to a different port it began
behaving correctly.

This is all however fantastic progress. 

cheers

Allan 





On Fri, 2003-02-14 at 22:38, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> Hi Allan,
> 
> At 14 Feb 2003 14:26:19 +1100,
> Allan Klinbail wrote:
> > 
> > The device stopped seeing all messages when attempts at sending MIDI
> > output to more than one port occured.(this is where the initialisation
> > SYSEX probably comes into play)  
> 
> this problem may have been fixed (not perfect but works in most
> cases) on cvs recently.   if you have time, please try the cvs
> version.
> 
> 
> ciao,
> 
> Takashi




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Re: Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV) - success

[Ryan Pavlik]

On 16 Feb 2003 20:58:23 +1100
Allan Klinbail <allank@labyrinth.net.au> wrote:

> Okay Finally I am very very happy.. 
> 
> SO far I have only been able to test output (need to setup MIDI
> hardware again after a gig) 
> 
> From output using MusE CVS version. 

I need to try this, is it much different than the 0.6.x prerelease? I've
had a few issues with that ...

> I have been able to send MIDI output to:
> 
> individual ports 
> multiple ports relaying different information... 
> timecode... MIDI CLOCK, worked , MMC still to be tested

Yeah after poking around same here... when it works.  Seems to rely on
JACK (which I don't care for) or else it won't play back, but I was
happy to see a steady MIDI clock delivered (I was having trouble with
one of my synths that way).

> I did not get a good SMPTE lock and the time display on the MTP-AV
> only aligned itself properly on stop.. (typical when a sync lock isn't
> established properly) both the PC and the MTP-AV were set to a SMTPE
> rate of 25 frames per second. 

I'm not sure how SMPTE is delivered, it's been awhile since I looked at
that end of MIDI, but perhaps not all the right messages are being
delivered.  What I really wish is that the MTPAV itself would generate
MIDI clocks and timecode; I'm pretty sure it's supposed to do the
latter.

<snip> 
> One glitch I noticed was that the driver seemed to send the note
> information to all ports when the sequence I had only sent to one of
> the MTPAV ports... When I assigned a second to a different port it
> began behaving correctly.

This is the main reason I replied... I've seen this behavior too.  I
haven't had time to investigate, but it seems to happen in various
sequencers from time to time (seq24, MusE, pmidi, etc.), and I'm not
completely sure of the cause.  Usually it starts out fine for me, but
I'll do something "odd" and suddenly all output is broadcast.  I'm
having suspicions, but do you remember any detailed circumstances
regarding this when you've seen it?

> This is all however fantastic progress. 

Yeah, I've had all this stuff for years and I'm completely hyped to
finally be able to put it to use.  Kudos to the ALSA developers (and the
sequencer authors ;) for all the time they've spent.

-- 
Ryan Pavlik <rpav@users.sf.net>

"Why are we even *mentioning* semi-regular polyhedrons
 and real space?" - 8BT


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Re: Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV) - success

[Allan Klinbail]

On Mon, 2003-02-17 at 08:06, Ryan Pavlik wrote:
> On 16 Feb 2003 20:58:23 +1100
> Allan Klinbail <allank@labyrinth.net.au> wrote:
> 
Hi Ryan (hope you don't mind all the cutting otherwise it just gets too
hard to read) 

> > One glitch I noticed was that the driver seemed to send the note
> > information to all ports when the sequence I had only sent to one of
> > the MTPAV ports... When I assigned a second to a different port it
> > began behaving correctly.
> 
> This is the main reason I replied... I've seen this behavior too.  I
> haven't had time to investigate, but it seems to happen in various
> sequencers from time to time (seq24, MusE, pmidi, etc.), and I'm not
> completely sure of the cause.  Usually it starts out fine for me, but
> I'll do something "odd" and suddenly all output is broadcast.  I'm
> having suspicions, but do you remember any detailed circumstances
> regarding this when you've seen it?

Unfortunately, I have not had enough chance to test this except that I
noticed it was happening when only one MIDI Port  had been assigned and
only before a second port was assigned , but it seemed to move smoothly
after this.  .. .. today was supposed to be the day but I can't even
install alsa properly today (ggrrrr help somebody  see my last post) 

If you are saying that you are seeing this in multiple softwares it
probably is a driver issue that needs to be investigated further... I'll
keep my eyes wide open when I'm up and running again. 


> I need to try this, is it much different than the 0.6.x prerelease? I've
> had a few issues with that ...

I've only been using CVS releases until today  (I'm having trouble
compiling see other notes, don't know why though). I'm downloading that
version now to see what happens.. but I was under the impression the
mtpav code had only just been cleaned up in CVS.  

 
> Yeah after poking around same here... when it works.  Seems to rely on
> JACK (which I don't care for) or else it won't play back, but I was
> happy to see a steady MIDI clock delivered (I was having trouble with
> one of my synths that way).

With the version I used yesterday I was using a version of MusE without
Jack. MIDI clock was streaming fine. 

> 
> > I did not get a good SMPTE lock and the time display on the MTP-AV
> > only aligned itself properly on stop.. (typical when a sync lock isn't
> > established properly) both the PC and the MTP-AV were set to a SMTPE
> > rate of 25 frames per second. 
> 
> I'm not sure how SMPTE is delivered, it's been awhile since I looked at
> that end of MIDI, but perhaps not all the right messages are being
> delivered.  What I really wish is that the MTPAV itself would generate
> MIDI clocks and timecode; I'm pretty sure it's supposed to do the
> latter.

I've had to experiment without having a manual (MOTU won't put up a pdf
on the web and want a change of ownership kind of certificate thing), I
had mine shipped over from the US second hand, I don't even have the
details of the guy I bought it from. 

As far as I understand it should generate SMTPE timecode from video
sync, I don't know if it's possible for it to happen from MIDI clock. I
can only get sync happening when it is set on Internal and the computer
is sending sync... 

However, in my dim memory I'm sure I've seen it get a good lock from
some little test apps Takashi developed to test it and also some RTC
kernel patches (although they seem to have stopped at 2.4.20) ... As I
couldn't get multiple ports working I've been using the box in
standalone mode with a single port from another card being the interface
to the PC that is until now...  


cheers

Allan 

> 
> <snip> 

> 
> > This is all however fantastic progress. 
> 
> Yeah, I've had all this stuff for years and I'm completely hyped to
> finally be able to put it to use.  Kudos to the ALSA developers (and the
> sequencer authors ;) for all the time they've spent.
> 
> -- 
> Ryan Pavlik <rpav@users.sf.net>
> 
> "Why are we even *mentioning* semi-regular polyhedrons
>  and real space?" - 8BT
> 
> 
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Re: Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV) - success

[Ryan Pavlik]

On 17 Feb 2003 16:00:27 +1100
Allan Klinbail <allank@labyrinth.net.au> wrote:

<snip>
> Hi Ryan (hope you don't mind all the cutting otherwise it just gets
> too hard to read) 

Nope, cutting is good. ;)

<snip> 
> If you are saying that you are seeing this in multiple softwares it
> probably is a driver issue that needs to be investigated further...
> I'll keep my eyes wide open when I'm up and running again. 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the driver, but I'm not sure what it's from. 
I have a hunch it may be how broadcast is handled, but I haven't
investigated.  Other possibilities are odd MIDI causing the mtpav to
broadcast, or just plain old bugs.

<snip>
> I've only been using CVS releases until today  (I'm having trouble
> compiling see other notes, don't know why though). I'm downloading
> that version now to see what happens.. but I was under the impression
> the mtpav code had only just been cleaned up in CVS.  

Actually, I meant the MusE CVS version as opposed to muse 0.6.0pre
something.  I'll check it out anyhow.  I've only been using ALSA CVS as
well, mostly due to the fact I want to fix the mtpav stuff where
possible.

<snip>
> With the version I used yesterday I was using a version of MusE
> without Jack. MIDI clock was streaming fine. 

Hmm, cool, I'll have to give it another try.  I also would like to get
the rtctimer module working in the latest 2.4 kernel, as this is
supposed to alleviate latency problems with an irregular clock.  Some
changes in the kernel's rtc seem to have similar modifications, so I
haven't gone through and seen what's what yet.

> I've had to experiment without having a manual (MOTU won't put up a
> pdf on the web and want a change of ownership kind of certificate
> thing), I had mine shipped over from the US second hand, I don't even
> have the details of the guy I bought it from. 

Silly Motu.  IP antics are for the RIAA/MPAA.  I'd like to know what
they expect when someone wants documentation... you made a copy of the
hardware?  Or you're considering buying it?  Or maybe you want to write
software so it's more useful and perhaps others purchase it?

I just wish Midiman made something like the mtpav.  They seem to be
great about open specs.

> As far as I understand it should generate SMTPE timecode from video
> sync, I don't know if it's possible for it to happen from MIDI clock.
> I can only get sync happening when it is set on Internal and the
> computer is sending sync... 

Hmm... I don't have any video gear to play with. :( ;)

> However, in my dim memory I'm sure I've seen it get a good lock from
> some little test apps Takashi developed to test it and also some RTC
> kernel patches (although they seem to have stopped at 2.4.20) ... As I
> couldn't get multiple ports working I've been using the box in
> standalone mode with a single port from another card being the
> interface to the PC that is until now...  
<snip>

Cool.  Good luck, I'll keep checking on progress.

-- 
Ryan Pavlik <rpav@users.sf.net>

"Why are we even *mentioning* semi-regular polyhedrons
 and real space?" - 8BT


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Re: Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV) - success

[Takashi Iwai]

At 16 Feb 2003 20:58:23 +1100,
Allan Klinbail wrote:
> 
> One glitch I noticed was that the driver seemed to send the note
> information to all ports when the sequence I had only sent to one of the
> MTPAV ports... When I assigned a second to a different port it began
> behaving correctly.

i'm not sure whether the driver bug or what else.
i guess the hardware port is initialized to 0 (or it IS as default),
which corresponds to the broadcast.
this may happen even if a message "F5 00" is sent by an application.
so, we'll need to trace all F5 xx messages.

does this broadcast behavior appear at the first start only?


Takashi


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Re: Re: MTP-AV problems (Re: intel8x0 sequencer & MTP-AV) - success

[Allan Klinbail]

Hi Takashi

At this stage till I get the cvs version of ALSA I have no further
information. 

I did only notice at the start of using the sequencer.. once it happened
once it didn't happen again. 

However, Ryan Pavlik has also seen this behaviour and may be able to
tell you a little more. 


cheers

Allan


On Mon, 2003-02-17 at 21:56, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At 16 Feb 2003 20:58:23 +1100,
> Allan Klinbail wrote:
> > 
> > One glitch I noticed was that the driver seemed to send the note
> > information to all ports when the sequence I had only sent to one of the
> > MTPAV ports... When I assigned a second to a different port it began
> > behaving correctly.
> 
> i'm not sure whether the driver bug or what else.
> i guess the hardware port is initialized to 0 (or it IS as default),
> which corresponds to the broadcast.
> this may happen even if a message "F5 00" is sent by an application.
> so, we'll need to trace all F5 xx messages.
> 
> does this broadcast behavior appear at the first start only?
> 
> 
> Takashi




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