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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler1968@googlemail.com>
To: "'Alexei Starovoitov'" <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: "'Yonghong Song'" <yonghong.song@linux.dev>, <bpf@ietf.org>,
	"'bpf'" <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	"'Alexei Starovoitov'" <ast@kernel.org>,
	"'Andrii Nakryiko'" <andrii@kernel.org>,
	"'Daniel Borkmann'" <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	"'Martin KaFai Lau'" <martin.lau@kernel.org>
Subject: RE: [PATCH bpf-next] docs/bpf: Document some special sdiv/smod operations
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 18:30:00 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <000c01db3186$1dd30930$59791b90$@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAADnVQKDwZ0+Fjiz21AFAbOgEonVojvpojU1ZyQDu8V4Jm0DYQ@mail.gmail.com>


Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 12:54 PM Dave Thaler <dthaler1968@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
[...]
> > I'm adding bpf@ietf.org to the To line since all changes in the
> > standardization directory should include that mailing list.
> >
> > The WG should discuss whether any changes should be done via a new RFC
> > that obsoletes the first one, or as RFCs that Update and just describe
> > deltas (additions, etc.).
> >
> > There are precedents both ways and I don't have a strong preference,
> > but I have a weak preference for delta-based ones since they're
> > shorter and are less likely to re-open discussion on previously
> > resolved issues, thus often saving the WG time.
> 
> Delta-based additions make sense to me.
> 
> > Also FYI to Linux kernel folks:
> > With WG and AD approval, it's also possible (but not ideal) to take
> > changes at AUTH48.  That'd be up to the chairs and AD to decide
> > though, and normally that's just for purely editorial clarifications,
> > e.g., to confusion called out by the RFC editor pass.
> 
> Also agree. We should keep AUTH going its course as-is.
> All ISA additions can be in the future delta RFC.
> 
> As far as file logistics... my preference is to keep
> Documentation/bpf/standardization/instruction-set.rst
> up to date.
> Right now it's effectively frozen while awaiting changes (if any) necessary for AUTH.
> After official RFC is issued we can start landing patches into instruction-set.rst and
> git diff 04efaebd72d1..whatever_future_sha instruction-set.rst will automatically
> generate the future delta RFC.
> Once RFC number is issued we can add a git tag for the particular sha that was the
> base for RFC as a documentation step and to simplify future 'git diff'.

My concern is that index.rst says:
> This directory contains documents that are being iterated on as part of the BPF
> standardization effort with the IETF. See the `IETF BPF Working Group`_ page
> for the working group charter, documents, and more.

So having a document that is NOT part of the IETF BPF Working Group would seem
out of place and, in my view, better located up a level (outside standardization).

Here’s some examples of delta-based RFCs which explain the gap and provide
the addition or clarification, and formally Update (not replace/obsolete) the original
RFC:
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6585.html: Additional HTTP Status Codes
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6840.html: Clarifications and Implementation Notes
   for DNS Security (DNSSEC)
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9295.html: Clarifications for Ed25519, Ed448,
   X25519, and X448 Algorithm Identifiers
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5756.html: Updates for RSAES-OAEP and 
   RSASSA-PSS Algorithm Parameters

Having a full document too is valuable but unless the IETF BPF WG
decides to take on a -bis document, I'd suggest keeping it out of the "standardization"
(say up 1 level) to avoid confusion, and just have one or more delta-based rst files
in the standardization directory.

Dave




WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler1968=40googlemail.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
To: "'Alexei Starovoitov'" <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: 'Yonghong Song' <yonghong.song@linux.dev>,
	bpf@ietf.org, 'bpf' <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	'Alexei Starovoitov' <ast@kernel.org>,
	'Andrii Nakryiko' <andrii@kernel.org>,
	'Daniel Borkmann' <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	'Martin KaFai Lau' <martin.lau@kernel.org>
Subject: [Bpf] Re: [PATCH bpf-next] docs/bpf: Document some special sdiv/smod operations
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 18:30:00 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <000c01db3186$1dd30930$59791b90$@gmail.com> (raw)
Message-ID: <20241108023000.zXiiMbvKHGk4jWeV0TxtBml5y7Jz2YXX66pBeU-LRmI@z> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAADnVQKDwZ0+Fjiz21AFAbOgEonVojvpojU1ZyQDu8V4Jm0DYQ@mail.gmail.com>


Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 12:54 PM Dave Thaler <dthaler1968@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
[...]
> > I'm adding bpf@ietf.org to the To line since all changes in the
> > standardization directory should include that mailing list.
> >
> > The WG should discuss whether any changes should be done via a new RFC
> > that obsoletes the first one, or as RFCs that Update and just describe
> > deltas (additions, etc.).
> >
> > There are precedents both ways and I don't have a strong preference,
> > but I have a weak preference for delta-based ones since they're
> > shorter and are less likely to re-open discussion on previously
> > resolved issues, thus often saving the WG time.
> 
> Delta-based additions make sense to me.
> 
> > Also FYI to Linux kernel folks:
> > With WG and AD approval, it's also possible (but not ideal) to take
> > changes at AUTH48.  That'd be up to the chairs and AD to decide
> > though, and normally that's just for purely editorial clarifications,
> > e.g., to confusion called out by the RFC editor pass.
> 
> Also agree. We should keep AUTH going its course as-is.
> All ISA additions can be in the future delta RFC.
> 
> As far as file logistics... my preference is to keep
> Documentation/bpf/standardization/instruction-set.rst
> up to date.
> Right now it's effectively frozen while awaiting changes (if any) necessary for AUTH.
> After official RFC is issued we can start landing patches into instruction-set.rst and
> git diff 04efaebd72d1..whatever_future_sha instruction-set.rst will automatically
> generate the future delta RFC.
> Once RFC number is issued we can add a git tag for the particular sha that was the
> base for RFC as a documentation step and to simplify future 'git diff'.

My concern is that index.rst says:
> This directory contains documents that are being iterated on as part of the BPF
> standardization effort with the IETF. See the `IETF BPF Working Group`_ page
> for the working group charter, documents, and more.

So having a document that is NOT part of the IETF BPF Working Group would seem
out of place and, in my view, better located up a level (outside standardization).

Here’s some examples of delta-based RFCs which explain the gap and provide
the addition or clarification, and formally Update (not replace/obsolete) the original
RFC:
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6585.html: Additional HTTP Status Codes
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6840.html: Clarifications and Implementation Notes
   for DNS Security (DNSSEC)
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9295.html: Clarifications for Ed25519, Ed448,
   X25519, and X448 Algorithm Identifiers
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5756.html: Updates for RSAES-OAEP and 
   RSASSA-PSS Algorithm Parameters

Having a full document too is valuable but unless the IETF BPF WG
decides to take on a -bis document, I'd suggest keeping it out of the "standardization"
(say up 1 level) to avoid confusion, and just have one or more delta-based rst files
in the standardization directory.

Dave



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  parent reply	other threads:[~2024-11-08  2:30 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 19+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2024-09-27  3:39 [PATCH bpf-next] docs/bpf: Document some special sdiv/smod operations Yonghong Song
2024-10-01  1:50 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2024-10-01 15:48   ` Yonghong Song
2024-10-01 19:54     ` Dave Thaler
2024-10-01 19:54       ` [Bpf] " Dave Thaler
2024-10-02 20:13       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2024-10-02 20:13         ` [Bpf] " Alexei Starovoitov
2024-11-08  2:30         ` Dave Thaler [this message]
2024-11-08  2:30           ` Dave Thaler
2024-11-08 18:38           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2024-11-08 18:38             ` [Bpf] " Alexei Starovoitov
2024-11-08 18:53             ` Dave Thaler
2024-11-08 18:53               ` [Bpf] " Dave Thaler
2024-11-08 19:00               ` Yonghong Song
2024-11-08 19:00                 ` [Bpf] " Yonghong Song
2024-11-08 20:34               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2024-11-08 20:34                 ` [Bpf] " Alexei Starovoitov
2024-10-04  5:28       ` Yonghong Song
2024-10-04  5:28         ` [Bpf] " Yonghong Song

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