From: Michal Pecio <michal.pecio@gmail.com>
To: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>
Cc: "Alex Williamson" <alex@shazbot.org>,
"Uwe Kleine-König" <u.kleine-koenig@baylibre.com>,
"Armin Wolf" <W_Armin@gmx.de>,
"David Lechner" <dlechner@baylibre.com>,
"Danilo Krummrich" <dakr@kernel.org>,
"Luis Chamberlain" <mcgrof@kernel.org>,
"Petr Pavlu" <petr.pavlu@suse.com>,
"Daniel Gomez" <da.gomez@kernel.org>,
"Sami Tolvanen" <samitolvanen@google.com>,
"Aaron Tomlin" <atomlin@atomlin.com>,
"Jonathan Corbet" <corbet@lwn.net>,
"Shuah Khan" <skhan@linuxfoundation.org>,
"Randy Dunlap" <rdunlap@infradead.org>,
"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@kernel.org>,
"Steven Rostedt" <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
"Masami Hiramatsu" <mhiramat@kernel.org>,
"Mathieu Desnoyers" <mathieu.desnoyers@efficios.com>,
"Bradley Morgan" <brads@mainlining.org>,
"Aleksandr Nogikh" <nogikh@google.com>,
linux-modules@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-usb@vger.kernel.org,
driver-core@lists.linux.dev, linux-trace-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
"Johan Hovold" <johan@kernel.org>,
"Richard Weinberger" <richard@nod.at>,
"Thierry Reding" <thierry.reding@kernel.org>,
"Jason Gunthorpe" <jgg@ziepe.ca>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 0/3] driver core: add TAINT_FORCED_BIND for when userspace manually messes with devices and drivers
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2026 07:03:00 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20261027070300.4c45616a.michal.pecio@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <2026102637-buggy-mothball-2a08@gregkh>
On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 21:34:57 +0100, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > Even if we could come up with a set of device IDs, it's a policy
> > decision whether a given device is intended by the admin to be used
> > by the default in-kernel driver or a userspace driver.
>
> Great, then have the admin never allow the in-kernel driver to be on
> the system, or be loaded (modprobe has deny lists) and all is fine.
As some maintainers like to say, it's not the '90s anymore :)
Users don't reboot systems to kick a kernel driver off a PCI device to
try something in a disposable VM on a whim.
Even if they did, it's completely normal for desktop users to have two
GPUs from the same vendor or two xHCI controllers and pass only one of
them to Windows/macOS while using the other on the host.
bind/unbind feature prominently on every distribution wiki and forum,
this cat is absolutely out of the bag at this point.
> > That means that at one point we want the default driver bound and at
> > another we want a vfio driver bound. Coordinating this is exactly
> > why we have driver_override and, building on that, match IDs that
> > require driver_override. This allows drivers to describe
> > themselves as vfio-pci compatible drivers via modules.alias while
> > requiring userspace to enable the match via driver_override.
>
> And as said before, that's a horrid hack and one that is breaking
> things today in all sorts of ways, which is why the taint was added.
Are you aware of bind/unbind breaking things for PCI specifically?
Without also involving 'driver_override' or 'new_id'? Everyone agrees
that these APIs used for anything other than pci-stub or vfio are foot
guns. But your patch targets something different.
We can even bind PCI drivers to wrong devices *without* using bind and
hence, I presume but don't care to test, without tripping this taint.
> If you wish to override the kernel, then great, a taint flag is added
> and all is fine. All this means is that now developers know what you
> did and can decide to ignore your bug report or not. No functionality
> changed at all.
I believe people pointed out that it's a functional change for users of
panic_on_taint who also use bind without being idiots.
Does this taint even solve a "real" problem? Those bug reports weren't
coming from users, they were coming from "abusers" like syzbot looking
for trouble. They were quite obvious even without a taint message.
And at least on linux-usb, they seem to have stopped after Google and
one other copycat were told to stop sending them, and before this taint
reaches released kernels.
I even told them to block not only bind but also new_id, so there will
be no second wave of reports caused by syzbot discovering that it can
bypass the taint by using new_id intsead of driver_override.
> Why are you worried about a taint flag? So many servers run with
> taint flags enabled due to out-of-tree or questionable licenses with
> no problems, what's one more informational bit here?
And what's the point of a flag which is always set on countless normal
systems in the wild? If this feature survives to April 1st, I will send
a patch to rename it to "VM passthrough taint" because everybody (or at
least those dealing with desktop users) knows what it *really* means.
Regards,
Michal
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2026-10-27 6:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 34+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2026-09-14 14:30 [PATCH v4 0/3] driver core: add TAINT_FORCED_BIND for when userspace manually messes with devices and drivers Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-09-14 14:30 ` [PATCH v4 1/3] module: pull out add_taint_module() to be public Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-09-14 14:30 ` [PATCH v4 2/3] module: fix up documentation for add_taint() and add_taint_module() Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-09-14 14:42 ` Bradley Morgan
2026-09-18 15:44 ` Aaron Tomlin
2026-09-14 14:30 ` [PATCH v4 3/3] driver core: add TAINT_FORCED_BIND for when userspace manually messes with devices and drivers Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-09-18 16:39 ` [PATCH v4 0/3] " Danilo Krummrich
2026-09-18 17:25 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-09-18 17:29 ` Bradley Morgan
2026-09-22 7:39 ` Uwe Kleine-König
2026-09-22 13:40 ` David Lechner
2026-09-22 21:04 ` Armin Wolf
2026-09-23 6:29 ` Uwe Kleine-König
2026-09-23 9:27 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-09-23 9:54 ` Uwe Kleine-König
2026-09-23 10:29 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-10-24 0:13 ` Alex Williamson
2026-10-24 4:56 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-10-24 7:32 ` Uwe Kleine-König
2026-10-24 8:03 ` Danilo Krummrich
2026-10-24 16:35 ` Alex Williamson
2026-10-26 20:34 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-10-27 6:03 ` Michal Pecio [this message]
2026-10-27 8:05 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-10-25 12:48 ` Uwe Kleine-König
2026-10-26 22:59 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2026-10-26 12:22 ` Leon Romanovsky
2026-10-26 18:43 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2026-10-26 20:05 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-10-26 22:46 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2026-10-26 20:27 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2026-10-26 22:55 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2026-10-27 9:01 ` Leon Romanovsky
2026-09-23 20:52 ` Armin Wolf
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