* building initramfs is slow
@ 2011-08-18 18:18 John Reiser
[not found] ` <CALAkbJOkMTQdkmhBBvqHk3oKRzMHvXcp1MxasMrMpCbTP3+0eg@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <4E4D5779.6090209-Po6cBsTGB2ZWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: John Reiser @ 2011-08-18 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA
Building an initramfs is unreasonably slow. On Fedora 16
dracut-011 takes almost a minute when installing a new kernel:
real 56s
user 20s \__ dracut is CPU bound, not I/O bound.
sys 31s /
The final "gzip -9" takes 12 seconds, and the cpio 1 second,
which leaves 43 seconds for the rest of dracut. That's a
factor of 3 or 4 too long. The output initramfs is 14.9MB
(41MB unzipped) and contains 1619 files, including 367 .ko
kernel modules.
Running
strace -o strace.out -f -e trace=execve dracut test.img
and applying some text processing to strace.out shows
12518 SIGCHLD (processes terminated)
So dracut fondles each file with an average of (12518 / 1619)
= 7.7 processes. No wonder building an initramfs is slow!
Again in strace.out:
8917 execve (address-space images instantiated)
and taking (#SIGCHLD - #execve) gives:
3591 fork-and-no-exec (shell builtins that need a process)
because there is almost no chaining of execve without a fork.
The sorted histogram of execve begins:
3803 execve("/bin/egrep"
1343 execve("/bin/cp"
858 execve("/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2"
760 execve("/usr/bin/ldd"
375 execve("/sbin/modinfo"
359 execve("/bin/chmod"
344 execve("/bin/rm"
341 execve("/sbin/modprobe"
256 execve("/bin/mkdir"
222 execve("/bin/readlink"
100 execve("/bin/cat"
This data, and a glance at the source of dracut, suggests
considering the bash shell regexp operator "[[ string =~ pattern ]]"
and the expansion substitution operator "${parameter/pattern/string}"
to replace most instances of egrep.
The uses of cp, ldd, chmod, and modinfo should be investigated for
the possibility of batching more than one file at a time. Operating
inside one directory at a time can effectively remove the threat of
exceeding the 32KB limit on the arglist to execve.
Using pipelines (possibly including bash's "while read fname ; do")
to filter streamed lists of filenames can reduce overhead significantly
in contrast to "for fname in ...; do <<execve>>". A pipeline may also
introduce effective parallelism.
"sort --uniq" handily removes duplicates.
In most cases "cat filename |" should be replaced with ordinary
redirection "< filename", and similarly "$(cat filename)" should
be "$(< filename)". If SELinux denies access by dracut (etc.)
but allows /bin/cat, then such a comment is REQUIRED.
Yes, I'm going to work on it.
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread[parent not found: <CALAkbJOkMTQdkmhBBvqHk3oKRzMHvXcp1MxasMrMpCbTP3+0eg@mail.gmail.com>]
[parent not found: <CALAkbJOkMTQdkmhBBvqHk3oKRzMHvXcp1MxasMrMpCbTP3+0eg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>]
* Re: building initramfs is slow [not found] ` <CALAkbJOkMTQdkmhBBvqHk3oKRzMHvXcp1MxasMrMpCbTP3+0eg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> @ 2011-08-18 23:09 ` John Reiser 2011-08-19 4:53 ` WANG Cong 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: John Reiser @ 2011-08-18 23:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA On 08/18/2011 11:25 AM, Harald Hoyer wrote: > Try dracut version 013. It's already faster. Yes, there is some improvement, but I still seek a *factor* of 3 to 4 overall before cpio+gzip. All the slow coding persists. $ time /abs/path/to/dracut-013/dracut --local --force test2.img ### [fixed-width font, please] contrast to dracut-011 real 59s +3s user 26s +6s sys 29s -2s 26.0MB output image + 11.1MB 69.0MB unzipped + 28.0MB 1947 files listed by cpio +328 files 483 .ko kernel modules +116 modules ## Note the results have gotten larger (time, bytes, files, modules). ## The input (and configuration) has evolved, too. $ strace -o strace.out -f -e trace=execve /abs/path/to/dracut-013/dracut --local --force test2.img 11349 SIGCHLD -1169 processes !yea! 7544 execve -1373 execve !yea! 3805 fork-and-no-exec + 214 shell builtins that get a process 2686 execve("/bin/egrep" -1117 good, but should be at most a few dozen 1587 execve("/bin/cp" + 244 491 execve("/sbin/modinfo" + 116 468 execve("/bin/chmod" + 109 458 execve("/bin/rm" 455 execve("/sbin/modprobe" 320 execve("/bin/readlink" 318 execve("/bin/mkdir" 285 execve("/lib64/ld-linux..." -573 !yea! 166 execve("/usr/bin/ldd" -594 !yea! 119 execve("/bin/cat" 88 execve("/bin/ln" 44 execve("/bin/grep" 17 execve("/bin/find" -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: building initramfs is slow 2011-08-18 23:09 ` John Reiser @ 2011-08-19 4:53 ` WANG Cong 2011-08-19 6:47 ` Harald Hoyer 2011-08-19 18:27 ` John Reiser 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: WANG Cong @ 2011-08-19 4:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:09:19 -0700, John Reiser wrote: > On 08/18/2011 11:25 AM, Harald Hoyer wrote: >> Try dracut version 013. It's already faster. > > Yes, there is some improvement, but I still seek a *factor* of 3 to 4 > overall before cpio+gzip. All the slow coding persists. > > > $ time /abs/path/to/dracut-013/dracut --local --force test2.img ### > [fixed-width font, please] contrast to dracut-011 > real 59s +3s user 26s > +6s sys 29s -2s > > 26.0MB output image + 11.1MB 69.0MB unzipped > + 28.0MB > 1947 files listed by cpio +328 files > 483 .ko kernel modules +116 modules > > ## Note the results have gotten larger (time, bytes, files, modules). ## > The input (and configuration) has evolved, too. > Can you add -M to see which modules are loaded? As a kdump developer, I worry more about the size of initramfs generated by dracut, because we have very limited memory (usually 128M or 256M) in the second kernel. So, the output of `lsinitrd test2.img` would be helpful too. Thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: building initramfs is slow 2011-08-19 4:53 ` WANG Cong @ 2011-08-19 6:47 ` Harald Hoyer [not found] ` <4E4E0707.4060504-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> 2011-08-19 18:27 ` John Reiser 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Harald Hoyer @ 2011-08-19 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: WANG Cong; +Cc: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA On 19.08.2011 06:53, WANG Cong wrote: > On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:09:19 -0700, John Reiser wrote: > >> On 08/18/2011 11:25 AM, Harald Hoyer wrote: >>> Try dracut version 013. It's already faster. >> >> Yes, there is some improvement, but I still seek a *factor* of 3 to 4 >> overall before cpio+gzip. All the slow coding persists. >> >> >> $ time /abs/path/to/dracut-013/dracut --local --force test2.img ### >> [fixed-width font, please] contrast to dracut-011 >> real 59s +3s user 26s >> +6s sys 29s -2s >> >> 26.0MB output image + 11.1MB 69.0MB unzipped >> + 28.0MB >> 1947 files listed by cpio +328 files >> 483 .ko kernel modules +116 modules >> >> ## Note the results have gotten larger (time, bytes, files, modules). ## >> The input (and configuration) has evolved, too. >> > > Can you add -M to see which modules are loaded? > > As a kdump developer, I worry more about the size of initramfs generated > by dracut, because we have very limited memory (usually 128M or 256M) > in the second kernel. So, the output of `lsinitrd test2.img` would > be helpful too. > > Thanks. Maybe you should build your kdump kernel with the "hostonly" option, which will significantly reduce your initramfs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <4E4E0707.4060504-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>]
* Re: building initramfs is slow [not found] ` <4E4E0707.4060504-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> @ 2011-08-19 7:04 ` Américo Wang [not found] ` <CAM_iQpUr2mVRM+PFeYkefzx9xEAOJKhZh+wpaXgKg6bj+1dozQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Américo Wang @ 2011-08-19 7:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Harald Hoyer; +Cc: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Harald Hoyer <harald-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> wrote: > On 19.08.2011 06:53, WANG Cong wrote: >> As a kdump developer, I worry more about the size of initramfs generated >> by dracut, because we have very limited memory (usually 128M or 256M) >> in the second kernel. So, the output of `lsinitrd test2.img` would >> be helpful too. >> >> Thanks. > > Maybe you should build your kdump kernel with the "hostonly" option, which will > significantly reduce your initramfs. > Yeah, that does help, but the size is still large, see below [root@nec-em18 ~]# dracut -H -M -f test.img --force-add nfs dash i18n rpmversion network ifcfg plymouth dm kernel-modules lvm nfs resume rootfs-block terminfo udev-rules biosdevname base fs-lib shutdown [root@nec-em18 ~]# ls -lh test.img -rw-r--r--. 1 root root 11M Aug 19 03:00 test.img Also note, there are still some unneeded modules get included, e.g. i18n and plymouth. Therefore, I choose to use -m and -a to specify the modules we really need. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <CAM_iQpUr2mVRM+PFeYkefzx9xEAOJKhZh+wpaXgKg6bj+1dozQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>]
* Re: building initramfs is slow [not found] ` <CAM_iQpUr2mVRM+PFeYkefzx9xEAOJKhZh+wpaXgKg6bj+1dozQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org> @ 2011-08-19 7:07 ` Harald Hoyer [not found] ` <4E4E0B95.6040909-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Harald Hoyer @ 2011-08-19 7:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Américo Wang; +Cc: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA On 19.08.2011 09:04, Américo Wang wrote: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Harald Hoyer <harald-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> wrote: >> On 19.08.2011 06:53, WANG Cong wrote: >>> As a kdump developer, I worry more about the size of initramfs generated >>> by dracut, because we have very limited memory (usually 128M or 256M) >>> in the second kernel. So, the output of `lsinitrd test2.img` would >>> be helpful too. >>> >>> Thanks. >> >> Maybe you should build your kdump kernel with the "hostonly" option, which will >> significantly reduce your initramfs. >> > > Yeah, that does help, but the size is still large, see below > > [root@nec-em18 ~]# dracut -H -M -f test.img --force-add nfs > dash > i18n > rpmversion > network > ifcfg > plymouth > dm > kernel-modules > lvm > nfs > resume > rootfs-block > terminfo > udev-rules > biosdevname > base > fs-lib > shutdown > [root@nec-em18 ~]# ls -lh test.img > -rw-r--r--. 1 root root 11M Aug 19 03:00 test.img > > Also note, there are still some unneeded modules get included, e.g. i18n > and plymouth. > > Therefore, I choose to use -m and -a to specify the modules we really need. Absolutely! You don't want plymouth and shutdown for example in your kdump initramfs :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <4E4E0B95.6040909-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>]
* Re: building initramfs is slow [not found] ` <4E4E0B95.6040909-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> @ 2011-08-19 7:32 ` Dan Horák 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Dan Horák @ 2011-08-19 7:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA Harald Hoyer píše v Pá 19. 08. 2011 v 09:07 +0200: > On 19.08.2011 09:04, Américo Wang wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Harald Hoyer <harald-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> On 19.08.2011 06:53, WANG Cong wrote: > >>> As a kdump developer, I worry more about the size of initramfs generated > >>> by dracut, because we have very limited memory (usually 128M or 256M) > >>> in the second kernel. So, the output of `lsinitrd test2.img` would > >>> be helpful too. > >>> > >>> Thanks. > >> > >> Maybe you should build your kdump kernel with the "hostonly" option, which will > >> significantly reduce your initramfs. > >> > > > > Yeah, that does help, but the size is still large, see below > > > > [root@nec-em18 ~]# dracut -H -M -f test.img --force-add nfs > > dash > > i18n > > rpmversion > > network > > ifcfg > > plymouth > > dm > > kernel-modules > > lvm > > nfs > > resume > > rootfs-block > > terminfo > > udev-rules > > biosdevname > > base > > fs-lib > > shutdown > > [root@nec-em18 ~]# ls -lh test.img > > -rw-r--r--. 1 root root 11M Aug 19 03:00 test.img > > > > Also note, there are still some unneeded modules get included, e.g. i18n > > and plymouth. > > > > Therefore, I choose to use -m and -a to specify the modules we really need. > > Absolutely! You don't want plymouth and shutdown for example in your kdump > initramfs :-) and maybe you can use --filesystems too, http://fedora.danny.cz/arm/dracut.conf is an example of dracut config I use for preparing size-limited initramfs images for my Fedora/ARM devices Dan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: building initramfs is slow 2011-08-19 4:53 ` WANG Cong 2011-08-19 6:47 ` Harald Hoyer @ 2011-08-19 18:27 ` John Reiser 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: John Reiser @ 2011-08-19 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA On 08/18/2011 09:53 PM, WANG Cong wrote: > Can you add -M to see which modules are loaded? I'm going to skip this because of other people's responses in the meantime. About 450 of the 2363 *.ko kernel modules in Fedora 16 were loaded. See also the histogram below. > > As a kdump developer, I worry more about the size of initramfs generated > by dracut, because we have very limited memory (usually 128M or 256M) > in the second kernel. So, the output of `lsinitrd test2.img` would > be helpful too. Fedora releases, pre-releases, and Live media are readily available. You should be able to download, install/boot, and experiment in half a day. $(lsinitrd test2.img) is too long, so I've made a sorted histogram of number files by directory, and include the beginning here. [My quick-and-dirty methodology might have holes.] 188 lib/kbd/consolefonts/ 120 lib/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwerty/ 88 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/drivers/net/ 88 lib64/ 63 lib/kbd/unimaps/ 62 lib/firmware/radeon/ 61 sbin/ 59 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/drivers/ata/ 55 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/drivers/scsi/ 48 lib/kbd/consoletrans/ 46 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/crypto/ 44 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/fs/ 40 usr/share/plymouth/themes/charge/ 39 lib/kbd/consolefonts/partialfonts/ 38 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/fs/nls/ 29 bin/ 28 lib/firmware/ 25 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/drivers/ 24 usr/lib64/ 19 lib/kbd/keymaps/i386/include/ 19 etc/ 18 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/ 18 lib/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwertz/ 18 lib64/multipath/ 17 lib/kbd/keymaps/mac/all/ 17 lib/dracut/hooks/cmdline/ 16 lib/kbd/keymaps/sun/ 15 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/drivers/usb/storage/ 15 lib/modules/3.0.0-1.fc16.x86_64/kernel/drivers/md/ 13 lib/udev/rules.d/ 12 lib/dracut/hooks/ -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <4E4D5779.6090209-Po6cBsTGB2ZWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>]
* Re: building initramfs is slow [not found] ` <4E4D5779.6090209-Po6cBsTGB2ZWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> @ 2011-08-19 7:03 ` Harald Hoyer 2011-08-19 8:24 ` Harald Hoyer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Harald Hoyer @ 2011-08-19 7:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Reiser; +Cc: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA On 18.08.2011 20:18, John Reiser wrote: > Building an initramfs is unreasonably slow. On Fedora 16 > dracut-011 takes almost a minute when installing a new kernel: > real 56s > user 20s \__ dracut is CPU bound, not I/O bound. > sys 31s / > The final "gzip -9" takes 12 seconds, and the cpio 1 second, > which leaves 43 seconds for the rest of dracut. That's a > factor of 3 or 4 too long. The output initramfs is 14.9MB > (41MB unzipped) and contains 1619 files, including 367 .ko > kernel modules. Some general thoughts. 1. speed at initramfs creation time is not sooo important. Normally this is only done once in a while and not every day. Boot speed is more important. 2. if you care about speed of creation and size of the initramfs, turn on "hostonly" in /etc/dracut.conf > Yes, I'm going to work on it. > That's cool! I accept patches :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: building initramfs is slow [not found] ` <4E4D5779.6090209-Po6cBsTGB2ZWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> 2011-08-19 7:03 ` Harald Hoyer @ 2011-08-19 8:24 ` Harald Hoyer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Harald Hoyer @ 2011-08-19 8:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Reiser; +Cc: initramfs-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2103 bytes --] On 18.08.2011 20:18, John Reiser wrote: > Building an initramfs is unreasonably slow. On Fedora 16 > dracut-011 takes almost a minute when installing a new kernel: > real 56s > user 20s \__ dracut is CPU bound, not I/O bound. > sys 31s / Another profiling approach with dracut >= 013: $ git clone git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/boot/dracut/dracut.git $ cd dracut $ ./dracut --profile --local --force /tmp/test2.img &>/tmp/profile.out $ python profile.py 2>/dev/null < /tmp/profile.out | head -10|sed 's#/.*/##g' dracut-functions@287 24.6794755459 dracut-functions@864 19.2174339294 dracut-functions@286 12.4720790386 dracut-functions@284 12.4622004032 dracut-functions@285 12.3773012161 dracut-functions@326 7.45590758324 ./dracut@653 6.62076878548 dracut-logger@334 6.58080339432 dracut-functions@315 6.04220032692 dracut-functions@863 4.97196722031 of course this method adds the time of the PS4 evaluation to every line. So if a line is called often, the "date" call of PS4='+ $(date "+%s.%N") ${BASH_SOURCE}@${LINENO}: ' is added multiple times. Maybe we could patch bash to output nice profiling information. lines 284-287 are in inst_dir() dracut-functions@287 24.6794755459 dracut-functions@286 12.4720790386 dracut-functions@284 12.4622004032 dracut-functions@285 12.3773012161 This could, of course, be optimized. See attached patch. Before: real 0m30.752s user 0m30.682s sys 0m14.275s After: real 0m29.717s user 0m30.486s sys 0m14.220s profiling after the patch: dracut-functions@864 18.7074279785 dracut-functions@326 7.28814554214 ./dracut@654 6.65880942345 dracut-logger@334 6.25012993813 dracut-functions@279 6.23409557343 dracut-functions@315 5.92809057236 dracut-functions@863 4.807523489 dracut-functions@862 4.75765013695 dracut-functions@411 3.63905620575 dracut-functions@273 3.21366071701 This is filter_kernel_modules() dracut-functions@864 18.7074279785 dracut-functions@863 4.807523489 dracut-functions@862 4.75765013695 This is "cp -pfL": dracut-functions@326 7.28814554214 This is the cpio and compress call: ./dracut@654 6.65880942345 [-- Attachment #2: dracut-inst_dir.patch --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 860 bytes --] diff --git a/dracut-functions b/dracut-functions index 241d89a..d7f2e5f 100755 --- a/dracut-functions +++ b/dracut-functions @@ -274,18 +274,18 @@ inst_dir() { local _oldifs="$IFS" local _part local _dir="$1" - IFS="/" - set -- $_dir - IFS=$_oldifs - _dir="$@" + + # fast out [[ -e ${initdir}$_dir ]] && return 0 - # iterate over parent directories - for _part in $_dir; do - [[ $_part ]] || continue - _file="$_file/$_part" - [[ -e ${initdir}$_file ]] && continue + _part=${_dir%/*} + while ! [[ -e "${initdir}${_part}" ]]; do + _dir="$_part $_dir" + _part=${_part%/*} + done + # iterate over parent directories + for _file in $_dir; do if [[ -L $_file ]]; then # create link as the original local target=$(readlink -f "$_file") ^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
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2011-08-18 18:18 building initramfs is slow John Reiser
[not found] ` <CALAkbJOkMTQdkmhBBvqHk3oKRzMHvXcp1MxasMrMpCbTP3+0eg@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CALAkbJOkMTQdkmhBBvqHk3oKRzMHvXcp1MxasMrMpCbTP3+0eg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2011-08-18 23:09 ` John Reiser
2011-08-19 4:53 ` WANG Cong
2011-08-19 6:47 ` Harald Hoyer
[not found] ` <4E4E0707.4060504-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2011-08-19 7:04 ` Américo Wang
[not found] ` <CAM_iQpUr2mVRM+PFeYkefzx9xEAOJKhZh+wpaXgKg6bj+1dozQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2011-08-19 7:07 ` Harald Hoyer
[not found] ` <4E4E0B95.6040909-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2011-08-19 7:32 ` Dan Horák
2011-08-19 18:27 ` John Reiser
[not found] ` <4E4D5779.6090209-Po6cBsTGB2ZWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
2011-08-19 7:03 ` Harald Hoyer
2011-08-19 8:24 ` Harald Hoyer
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