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From: David Matlack <dmatlack@google.com>
To: Pasha Tatashin <pasha.tatashin@soleen.com>
Cc: Tarun Sahu <tarunsahu@google.com>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	joro@8bytes.org, Mike Rapoport <rppt@kernel.org>,
	Pratyush Yadav <pratyush@kernel.org>,
	maz@kernel.org, arnd@arndb.de, jgg@nvidia.com,
	robin.murphy@arm.com, loganodell@google.com, oupton@kernel.org,
	kevin.tian@intel.com, alex@shazbot.org, dwmw2@infradead.org,
	pbonzini@redhat.com, seanjc@google.com, will@kernel.org,
	Alexander Graf <graf@amazon.com>,
	Bjorn Helgaas <bhelgaas@google.com>,
	baolu.lu@linux.intel.com, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org,
	linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, sagis@google.com, linux-mm@kvack.org,
	kvmarm@lists.linux.dev, iommu@lists.linux.dev,
	linux-pci@vger.kernel.org, kexec@lists.infradead.org,
	skhawaja@google.com, kvm@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 2/4] liveupdate: Select file handler by name in the preserve ioctl
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2026 17:57:15 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <atpOe-blcgW-uDd4@google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CA+CK2bAxgtx2gZ-UE2HqwAU8=h9K5RE3xozBs1njgLo1-CaPvA@mail.gmail.com>

On 2026-10-21 09:14 PM, Pasha Tatashin wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2026 at 7:02 PM David Matlack <dmatlack@google.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 2026-10-21 01:17 PM, Pasha Tatashin wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2026 at 11:25 AM Tarun Sahu <tarunsahu@google.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Currently luo_preserve_file() iterates over luo_file_handler_list and
> > > > picks the first registered handler whose .can_preserve() callback
> > > > returns true. When a subsystem introduces a new, backwards-incompatible
> > > > file handler alongside an existing one for the same file type, userspace
> > > > has no way to choose which handler preserves a file descriptor, nor can
> > > > the kernel keep the existing rollback-safe handler as the default while
> > > > allowing callers to opt into the new handler.
> > >
> > > That is not how it will work. If we are in the .can_preserve() call,
> > > it means the user has already decided which file handlers to use. We
> > > need to do that before any preservation happens; otherwise, we could
> > > run into conflicts on FLBs i.e. FH of different version require
> > > different FLBs.
> > >
> > > Therefore, there should be a luoctl call (i.e via a new ioctl to set
> > > compatability) that provides the kernel with the specs file of the
> > > target kernel we are updating to, allowing the kernel to select the
> > > compatible file handlers. Since .can_preserve() is called when the
> > > user is already preserving files, the specification must have already
> > > been supplied, or the kernel should fall back to using the default
> > > (i.e., latest) file handlers.
> >
> > I don't think that is the right direction. IMO the kernel should not be
> > choosing which file handler to use, userspace should be. If userspace
> > gets it wrong and chooses a file handler the next kernel does not
> > support, that's on them.
> >
> > The problem with the kernel making a decision about file handlers is
> > then userspace does not know what arguments to pass in. We are adding
> > custom per-file handler arguments to PRESERVE_FD and RETRIEVE_FD. If the
> > kernel is picking which file handler to use, say for a memfd, then
> > userspace doesn't know which arguments to pass in.
> 
> It is not the kernel deciding on its own which handler to use; it is
> the system admin (or host orchestrator) that configures LUO before the
> LU process starts, because the sysadmin knows what kernel we are
> rebooting into and the LUO specs of that target kernel. Meanwhile, the
> process calling PRESERVE_FD (e.g., a VMM) only knows about its own FDs
> and should not have to track target kernel serialization versions.
> 
> Also, the PRESERVE_FD and RETRIEVE_FD arguments are uABI tied to the
> FD type, not to a specific internal handler version. They are stable,
> and we can expand them the same way any ioctl argument is expanded
> (via size and flags), without ever shrinking or breaking them. We
> should not play the game of providing completely different uABI
> argument structs for different versions of a file handler. If a caller
> passes a new feature in the uABI args that the currently configured
> file handler version does not support, PRESERVE_FD simply returns
> -EOPNOTSUPP, just like any other extensible ioctl.

If we require that PRESERVE_FD and RETRIEVE_FD uAPI is stable across
different file handlers for the same file type, then my concern is
resolved.

> More generally, we are rebooting the host into a single target kernel,
> so compatibility is a session-level property, not a per-FD property.
> If we need an upfront global ioctl anyway, configuring the target
> compatibility upfront in one place is much cleaner than exposing FLBs
> to userspace and splitting version selection between a global ioctl
> and per-FD PRESERVE_FD calls.

That's a good point. Ok let's not do per-FD FH selection.

  reply	other threads:[~2026-10-22 17:57 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 38+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2026-10-21 15:25 [RFC PATCH v2 0/4] liveupdate: Feature header ABI and named handler Tarun Sahu
2026-10-21 15:25 ` [RFC PATCH v2 1/4] liveupdate: Rename handler compatible to name Tarun Sahu
2026-10-21 17:11   ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 18:16     ` tarunsahu
2026-10-21 19:11       ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 19:35         ` tarunsahu
2026-10-23  7:44           ` Mike Rapoport
2026-10-21 15:25 ` [RFC PATCH v2 2/4] liveupdate: Select file handler by name in the preserve ioctl Tarun Sahu
2026-10-21 17:17   ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 23:02     ` David Matlack
2026-10-22  1:14       ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-22 17:57         ` David Matlack [this message]
2026-10-22 12:50     ` tarunsahu
2026-10-22 13:42       ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 15:25 ` [RFC PATCH v2 3/4] liveupdate: Replace compatibility string with a 2-bit pair feature header Tarun Sahu
2026-10-21 17:27   ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 17:40     ` Jason Gunthorpe
2026-10-21 17:55       ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 18:40     ` tarunsahu
2026-10-21 18:46       ` David Matlack
2026-10-21 18:50         ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 23:28           ` David Matlack
2026-10-22  1:26             ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-22  2:57               ` David Matlack
2026-10-22  3:32                 ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-22  3:52                   ` David Matlack
2026-10-22  4:11                     ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-22 17:51                       ` David Matlack
2026-10-22 20:53                         ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 23:55   ` David Matlack
2026-10-22  0:04     ` David Matlack
2026-10-21 15:25 ` [RFC PATCH v2 4/4] mm: memfd_luo: Add the " Tarun Sahu
2026-10-21 17:38   ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-21 23:18     ` David Matlack
2026-10-22  0:41       ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-22  2:51         ` David Matlack
2026-10-22  3:50           ` Pasha Tatashin
2026-10-22 15:26   ` sashiko-bot

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