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* [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub
@ 2004-11-08 23:44 Scott W Gifford
  2004-11-09  0:11 ` Marcel Holtmann
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Scott W Gifford @ 2004-11-08 23:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bluez-users

Hello,

I'm trying to connect a USB/Bluetooth dongle to my laptop running
Fedora Core 2 with a Linux 2.6.8-1.521 kernel, and these bluez RPMs
installed:

    bluez-bluefw-1.0-2, bluez-libs-2.5-2.1, bluez-libs-devel-2.5-2.1,
    bluez-pin-0.23-1, bluez-utils-2.4-3, bluez-sdp-devel-1.5-2.1,
    bluez-hcidump-1.5-4, bluez-sdp-1.5-2.1, bluez-pan-1.1-4

I've got both a Belkin F8T001 version 2 dongle, and an AmbiCom
BT2000.C-USB dongle.  Both devices work great when I plug them
directly into the laptop, but fail when I connect them via a hub,
logging something like this:

    Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost kernel: hci_usb_intr_rx_submit: hci0 intr rx submit failed urb 1f48cf94 err -28
    Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost hcid[23855]: Can't init device hci0. Input/output error(5)

I get the same effect plugging in to the hub on my base station, my
keyboard, or a Belkin hub I just purchased.

I'd like to get this working for two reasons.  First, the USB ports on
my laptop aren't available when I'm in my docking station.  Second,
for the project I'm working on I'd like to connect several Bluetooth
adapters to my machine over a distance of 20 meters or so, which will
require hubs.

I've appended full logs of what happens on a working direct connection
and a failed connection through a hub, with the Belkin adapter; the
results with the AmbiCom are similar.

Any advice on getting this working?

Thanks!

----ScottG.


Logs when Plugging in Belkin dongle directly to laptop
======================================================
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost kernel: usb 3-1: new full speed USB device using address 10
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23492]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.1/usb3/3-1 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=495 _=/bin/env)Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23492]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23504]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.1/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.0 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/003/010 PRODUCT=50d/81/828 TYPE=224/1/1 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=496 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23504]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23524]: arguments (bluetooth) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/class/bluetooth/hci0 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 INTERFACE=hci0 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=497 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23524]: no runnable /etc/hotplug/bluetooth.agent is installed
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23533]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.1/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.1 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/003/010 PRODUCT=50d/81/828 TYPE=224/1/1 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=498 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23533]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23553]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.1/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.2 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/003/010 PRODUCT=50d/81/828 TYPE=224/1/1 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=499 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost default.hotplug[23553]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:27:20 localhost hcid[3346]: HCI dev 0 registered
Nov  8 18:27:21 localhost hcid[3346]: HCI dev 0 up
Nov  8 18:27:21 localhost hcid[3346]: Starting security manager 0
Nov  8 18:27:22 localhost usb.agent[23504]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:27:22 localhost usb.agent[23504]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:27:23 localhost usb.agent[23533]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:27:23 localhost usb.agent[23553]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:27:23 localhost usb.agent[23533]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:27:24 localhost usb.agent[23553]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828

hciconfig when Plugging in Belkin dongle directly to laptop
===========================================================
hci0:   Type: USB
        BD Address: 00:0A:3A:56:48:B9 ACL MTU: 192:8  SCO MTU: 64:8
        UP RUNNING PSCAN ISCAN AUTH ENCRYPT
        RX bytes:101 acl:0 sco:0 events:13 errors:0
        TX bytes:296 acl:0 sco:0 commands:12 errors:0

Logs when Plugging in Belkin dongle to USB hub
==============================================

Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost kernel: usb 1-1.4: new full speed USB device using address 28
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost kernel: ehci_hcd 0000:00:1d.7: qh 20a8b200 (#0) state 1
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23775]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb1/1-1/1-1.4 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=505 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23775]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23787]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/1-1.4:1.0 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/001/028 PRODUCT=50d/81/828 TYPE=224/1/1 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=506 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23787]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23807]: arguments (bluetooth) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/class/bluetooth/hci0 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 INTERFACE=hci0 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=507 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23807]: no runnable /etc/hotplug/bluetooth.agent is installed
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23816]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/1-1.4:1.1 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/001/028 PRODUCT=50d/81/828 TYPE=224/1/1 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=508 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:29:23 localhost default.hotplug[23816]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost default.hotplug[23836]: arguments (usb) env (OLDPWD=/ DEVPATH=/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/1-1.4:1.2 PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin ACTION=add PWD=/etc/hotplug HOME=/ SHLVL=2 DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/001/028 PRODUCT=50d/81/828 TYPE=224/1/1 DEBUG=yes SEQNUM=509 _=/bin/env)
Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost default.hotplug[23836]: invoke /etc/hotplug/usb.agent ()
Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost hcid[3346]: HCI dev 0 registered
Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost kernel: hci_usb_intr_rx_submit: hci0 intr rx submit failed urb 1f48cf94 err -28
Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost hcid[23855]: Can't init device hci0. Input/output error(5)
Nov  8 18:29:25 localhost usb.agent[23787]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:29:25 localhost usb.agent[23816]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:29:26 localhost usb.agent[23836]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:29:26 localhost usb.agent[23787]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:29:26 localhost usb.agent[23816]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
Nov  8 18:29:27 localhost usb.agent[23836]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
 
hciconfig when Plugging in Belkin dongle to USB hub
===================================================

hci0:   Type: USB
        BD Address: 00:00:00:00:00:00 ACL MTU: 0:0  SCO MTU: 0:0
        DOWN
        RX bytes:0 acl:0 sco:0 events:0 errors:0
        TX bytes:0 acl:0 sco:0 commands:0 errors:0


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub
  2004-11-08 23:44 [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub Scott W Gifford
@ 2004-11-09  0:11 ` Marcel Holtmann
  2004-11-09  0:28   ` Scott W Gifford
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Marcel Holtmann @ 2004-11-09  0:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: BlueZ Mailing List

Hi Scott,

> I'm trying to connect a USB/Bluetooth dongle to my laptop running
> Fedora Core 2 with a Linux 2.6.8-1.521 kernel, and these bluez RPMs
> installed:
> 
>     bluez-bluefw-1.0-2, bluez-libs-2.5-2.1, bluez-libs-devel-2.5-2.1,
>     bluez-pin-0.23-1, bluez-utils-2.4-3, bluez-sdp-devel-1.5-2.1,
>     bluez-hcidump-1.5-4, bluez-sdp-1.5-2.1, bluez-pan-1.1-4

these packages are a way out of data.

> I've got both a Belkin F8T001 version 2 dongle, and an AmbiCom
> BT2000.C-USB dongle.  Both devices work great when I plug them
> directly into the laptop, but fail when I connect them via a hub,
> logging something like this:
> 
>     Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost kernel: hci_usb_intr_rx_submit: hci0 intr rx submit failed urb 1f48cf94 err -28
>     Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost hcid[23855]: Can't init device hci0. Input/output error(5)
> 
> I get the same effect plugging in to the hub on my base station, my
> keyboard, or a Belkin hub I just purchased.

This looks like an USB problem to me. Update your kernel to the latest
Bitkeeper snapshot and try again.

> I'd like to get this working for two reasons.  First, the USB ports on
> my laptop aren't available when I'm in my docking station.  Second,
> for the project I'm working on I'd like to connect several Bluetooth
> adapters to my machine over a distance of 20 meters or so, which will
> require hubs.
> 
> I've appended full logs of what happens on a working direct connection
> and a failed connection through a hub, with the Belkin adapter; the
> results with the AmbiCom are similar.

What kind of dongles are these (hciconfig -a)?

Regards

Marcel




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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub
  2004-11-09  0:11 ` Marcel Holtmann
@ 2004-11-09  0:28   ` Scott W Gifford
  2004-11-09  5:47     ` Scott W Gifford
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Scott W Gifford @ 2004-11-09  0:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bluez-users

Marcel Holtmann <marcel@holtmann.org> writes:

> Hi Scott,
>
>> I'm trying to connect a USB/Bluetooth dongle to my laptop running
>> Fedora Core 2 with a Linux 2.6.8-1.521 kernel, and these bluez RPMs
>> installed:
>> 
>>     bluez-bluefw-1.0-2, bluez-libs-2.5-2.1, bluez-libs-devel-2.5-2.1,
>>     bluez-pin-0.23-1, bluez-utils-2.4-3, bluez-sdp-devel-1.5-2.1,
>>     bluez-hcidump-1.5-4, bluez-sdp-1.5-2.1, bluez-pan-1.1-4
>
> these packages are a way out of data.

Ah, OK; they're the ones supplied by Fedora.  I'll try newer ones from
the Bluez Web site.

[...]

>>     Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost kernel: hci_usb_intr_rx_submit: hci0 intr rx submit failed urb 1f48cf94 err -28
>>     Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost hcid[23855]: Can't init device hci0. Input/output error(5)
>> 
>> I get the same effect plugging in to the hub on my base station, my
>> keyboard, or a Belkin hub I just purchased.
>
> This looks like an USB problem to me. Update your kernel to the latest
> Bitkeeper snapshot and try again.

OK.

[...]

>> I've appended full logs of what happens on a working direct connection
>> and a failed connection through a hub, with the Belkin adapter; the
>> results with the AmbiCom are similar.
>
> What kind of dongles are these (hciconfig -a)?

hci0 is the Belkin and hci1 is the AmbiCom.

hci0:   Type: USB
        BD Address: 00:0A:3A:56:48:B9 ACL MTU: 192:8  SCO MTU: 64:8
        UP RUNNING PSCAN ISCAN AUTH ENCRYPT
        RX bytes:765 acl:0 sco:0 events:51 errors:0
        TX bytes:560 acl:0 sco:0 commands:38 errors:0
        Features: 0xff 0xff 0x0f 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00
        Packet type: DM1 DM3 DM5 DH1 DH3 DH5 HV1 HV2 HV3
        Link policy: HOLD SNIFF PARK
        Link mode: SLAVE ACCEPT
        Name: 'gifford-0'
        Class: 0x120104
        Service Classes: Networking, Object Transfer
        Device Class: Computer, Desktop workstation
        HCI Ver: 1.1 (0x1) HCI Rev: 0x33c LMP Ver: 1.1 (0x1) LMP
        Subver: 0x33c
        Manufacturer: Cambridge Silicon Radio (10)
 
hci1:   Type: USB
        BD Address: 08:00:17:12:AE:C5 ACL MTU: 339:4  SCO MTU: 60:9
        UP RUNNING PSCAN ISCAN AUTH ENCRYPT
        RX bytes:143 acl:0 sco:0 events:16 errors:0
        TX bytes:305 acl:0 sco:0 commands:15 errors:0
        Features: 0xff 0x3a 0x05 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00 0x00
        Packet type: DM1 DM3 DM5 DH1 DH3 DH5 HV1 HV2 HV3
        Link policy: HOLD SNIFF PARK
        Link mode: SLAVE ACCEPT
        Name: 'gifford-1'
        Class: 0x120104
        Service Classes: Networking, Object Transfer
        Device Class: Computer, Desktop workstation
        HCI Ver: 1.1 (0x1) HCI Rev: 0x178 LMP Ver: 1.1 (0x1) LMP
        Subver: 0x178
        Manufacturer: RTX Telecom A/S (21)
 
----ScottG.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub
  2004-11-09  0:28   ` Scott W Gifford
@ 2004-11-09  5:47     ` Scott W Gifford
  2004-11-09  7:23       ` Marcel Holtmann
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Scott W Gifford @ 2004-11-09  5:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bluez-users

Scott W Gifford <gifford@umich.edu> writes:

> Marcel Holtmann <marcel@holtmann.org> writes:
>
>> Hi Scott,
>>
>>> I'm trying to connect a USB/Bluetooth dongle to my laptop running
>>> Fedora Core 2 with a Linux 2.6.8-1.521 kernel, and these bluez RPMs
>>> installed:
>>> 
>>>     bluez-bluefw-1.0-2, bluez-libs-2.5-2.1, bluez-libs-devel-2.5-2.1,
>>>     bluez-pin-0.23-1, bluez-utils-2.4-3, bluez-sdp-devel-1.5-2.1,
>>>     bluez-hcidump-1.5-4, bluez-sdp-1.5-2.1, bluez-pan-1.1-4
>>
>> these packages are a way out of data.
>
> Ah, OK; they're the ones supplied by Fedora.  I'll try newer ones from
> the Bluez Web site.

I removed all of Fedora's bluez stuff, and installed:

    bluez-firmware-1.0.tar.gz, bluez-hcidump-1.12.tar.gz,
    bluez-libs-2.10.tar.gz, bluez-utils-2.10.tar.gz

> [...]
>
>>>     Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost kernel: hci_usb_intr_rx_submit: hci0 intr rx submit failed urb 1f48cf94 err -28
>>>     Nov  8 18:29:24 localhost hcid[23855]: Can't init device hci0. Input/output error(5)
>>> 
>>> I get the same effect plugging in to the hub on my base station, my
>>> keyboard, or a Belkin hub I just purchased.
>>
>> This looks like an USB problem to me. Update your kernel to the latest
>> Bitkeeper snapshot and try again.

I downloaded a new kernel with:

    bk clone http://linux-mh.bkbits.net/bluetooth-2.6

, compiled and booted, and I still am getting roughly the same error:

    Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost usb.agent[4258]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
    Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost hcid[3688]: HCI dev 1 registered
    Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost kernel: hci_usb_intr_rx_submit: hci1 intr rx submit failed urb d0d01e94 err -28
    Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost hcid[4281]: Can't init device hci1. Input/output error(5)
    Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost usb.agent[4195]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
    Nov  9 00:36:07 localhost usb.agent[4231]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
    Nov  9 00:36:07 localhost usb.agent[4258]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828

As before, they work fine when plugged directly into the laptop.

Thanks!

----ScottG.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub
  2004-11-09  5:47     ` Scott W Gifford
@ 2004-11-09  7:23       ` Marcel Holtmann
  2004-12-02  0:33         ` Scott W Gifford
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Marcel Holtmann @ 2004-11-09  7:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: BlueZ Mailing List

Hi Scott,

> >> This looks like an USB problem to me. Update your kernel to the latest
> >> Bitkeeper snapshot and try again.
> 
> I downloaded a new kernel with:
> 
>     bk clone http://linux-mh.bkbits.net/bluetooth-2.6
> 
> , compiled and booted, and I still am getting roughly the same error:
> 
>     Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost usb.agent[4258]: Setup hci_usb for USB product 50d/81/828
>     Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost hcid[3688]: HCI dev 1 registered
>     Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost kernel: hci_usb_intr_rx_submit: hci1 intr rx submit failed urb d0d01e94 err -28
>     Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost hcid[4281]: Can't init device hci1. Input/output error(5)
>     Nov  9 00:36:06 localhost usb.agent[4195]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
>     Nov  9 00:36:07 localhost usb.agent[4231]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
>     Nov  9 00:36:07 localhost usb.agent[4258]: Setup 0x00 0x00 for USB product 50d/81/828
> 
> As before, they work fine when plugged directly into the laptop.

go ahead and report this problem to the USB mailing list, because it is
not a Bluetooth problem and I don't know why this fails.

Regards

Marcel




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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub
  2004-11-09  7:23       ` Marcel Holtmann
@ 2004-12-02  0:33         ` Scott W Gifford
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Scott W Gifford @ 2004-12-02  0:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bluez-users

Marcel Holtmann <marcel@holtmann.org> writes:

[...]

>> As before, they work fine when plugged directly into the laptop.
>
> go ahead and report this problem to the USB mailing list, because it is
> not a Bluetooth problem and I don't know why this fails.

I didn't get an answer on the USB mailing list, but I saw another
related answer that seemed to help.  Apparently using certain types of
transfers on a high-speed hub with a low-speed device is still
unsupported:

  http://www.linux-usb.org/usb2.html

    In terms of functionality, the latest driver:

    [...]

    * Has partial support for split transactions (full and low speed
      transfers) through USB 2.0 hubs:

    [...]

      o You can't (yet) use full speed isochronous transfers through
        USB 2.0 hubs. (At least without an experimental patch.)  That
        means: don't hook up USB 1.1 webcams, speakers, etc. to high
        speed buses, they'll enumerate but you won't be able to use
        them otherwise. Eventually of course a dozen USB 1.1 webcams
        will easily coexist at full data rate on a single USB 2.0 bus,
        using USB 2.0 hubs.

The "ehci-hcd" module provides support for high-speed USB 2.0.
Removing it with rmmod makes everything run as low-speed USB 1.x, and
that seems to solve the problem.

I tested with the dongles I have: D-link DBT-120, Belkin F8T001,
AmbiCom BT2000, and IOGear GBU211.  I tested plugged directly in,
plugged into a hub connected directly, and plugged into a hub
connected to a hub connected to a hub connected directly.

-----ScottG.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2004-12-02  0:33 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2004-11-08 23:44 [Bluez-users] USB/Bluetooth dongle doesn't work in hub Scott W Gifford
2004-11-09  0:11 ` Marcel Holtmann
2004-11-09  0:28   ` Scott W Gifford
2004-11-09  5:47     ` Scott W Gifford
2004-11-09  7:23       ` Marcel Holtmann
2004-12-02  0:33         ` Scott W Gifford

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