interesting use case for multiple devices and delayed raid?

interesting use case for multiple devices and delayed raid?

[Brian J. Murrell]

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I have a use case that I wonder if anyone might find interesting
involving multiple device support and delayed raid.

Let's say I have a system with two disks of equal size (to make it easy)
which has sporadic, heavy, write requirements.  At some points in time
there will be multiple files being appended to simultaneously and at
other times, there will be no activity at all.

The write activity is time sensitive, however, so the filesystem must be
able to provide guaranteed (only in a loose sense -- not looking for
real QoS reservation semantics) bandwidths at times.  Let's say slightly
(but within the realm of reality) less than the bandwidth of the two
disks combined.

I also want both the metadata and file data mirrored between the two
disks so that I can afford to lose one of the disks and not lose (most
of) my data.  It is not a strict requirement that all data be
immediately mirrored however.

So it seems that given these requirements that a filesystem should be
able to keep the disks mirrored in a "loose timeframe" so as to provide
redundancy (for all but the currently writing data) but also be able to
provide the full bandwidth of the two disks, yes?

Is this sort of idea on the btrfs roadmap at all?

b.


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Re: interesting use case for multiple devices and delayed raid?

[Dmitri Nikulin]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Brian J. Murrell <brian@interlinx.bc.ca=
> wrote:
> I have a use case that I wonder if anyone might find interesting
> involving multiple device support and delayed raid.
>
> Let's say I have a system with two disks of equal size (to make it ea=
sy)
> which has sporadic, heavy, write requirements. =C2=A0At some points i=
n time
> there will be multiple files being appended to simultaneously and at
> other times, there will be no activity at all.
>
> The write activity is time sensitive, however, so the filesystem must=
 be
> able to provide guaranteed (only in a loose sense -- not looking for
> real QoS reservation semantics) bandwidths at times. =C2=A0Let's say =
slightly
> (but within the realm of reality) less than the bandwidth of the two
> disks combined.

I assume you mean read bandwidth, since write bandwidth cannot be
increased by mirroring, only striping. If you intend to stripe first,
then mirror later as time permits, this is the kind of sophistication
you will need to write in the program code itself.

A filesystem is a handy abstraction, but you are by no means limited
to using it. If you have very special needs, you can get pretty far by
writing your own meta-filesystem to add semantics you don't have in
your kernel filesystem of choice. That's what every single database
application does. You can get even further by writing a complete
user-space filesystem as part of your program, or a shared daemon, and
the performance isn't really that bad.

> I also want both the metadata and file data mirrored between the two
> disks so that I can afford to lose one of the disks and not lose (mos=
t
> of) my data. =C2=A0It is not a strict requirement that all data be
> immediately mirrored however.

This is handled by DragonFly BSD's HAMMER filesystem. A master gets
written to, and asynchronously updates a slave, even over a network.
It is transactionally consistent and virtually impossible to corrupt
as long as the disk media is stable. However as far as I know it won't
spread reads, so you'll still get the performance of one disk.

A more complete solution, that requires no software changes, would be
to have 3 or 4 disks. A stripe for really fast reads and writes, and
another disk (or another stripe) to act as a slave to the data being
written to the primary stripe. This seems to do what you want, at a
small price premium.

--=20
Dmitri Nikulin

Centre for Synchrotron Science
Monash University
Victoria 3800, Australia
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Re: interesting use case for multiple devices and delayed raid?

[Brian J. Murrell]

On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 21:13:19 +1100, Dmitri Nikulin wrote:

On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 21:13 +1100, Dmitri Nikulin wrote:
> 
> I assume you mean read bandwidth, since write bandwidth cannot be
> increased by mirroring, only striping.

No, I mean write bandwidth.  You can get increased write bandwidth with
RAID 0 if you only write to one side of the mirror (initially),
effectively, striping.  You would update the other half of the mirror
"lazily" (iow, "delayed") when the filesystem has idle bandwidth.  One
of the stipulations was that the use pattern is peaks and valleys, not
sustained usage.

Yes, you would lose the data that was written to a failed mirror before
the filesystem got a chance to do the lazy mirror updating later on.
That was a stipulation in my original requirements too.

> If you intend to stripe first,
> then mirror later as time permits,

Yeah, that's one way to describe it.

> this is the kind of sophistication
> you will need to write in the program code itself.

Why?  A filesystem that does already does it's own mirroring and
striping (as I understand btrfs does) should be able to handle this
itself.  Much better in the filesystem than for each application to have
to handle it itself.

> A filesystem is a handy abstraction, but you are by no means limited
> to using it. If you have very special needs, you can get pretty far by
> writing your own meta-filesystem to add semantics you don't have in
> your kernel filesystem of choice.

Of course.  But I am floating this idea as a feature of btrfs given that
it already has much of the components needed.

> This is handled by DragonFly BSD's HAMMER filesystem. A master gets
> written to, and asynchronously updates a slave, even over a network.
> It is transactionally consistent and virtually impossible to corrupt
> as long as the disk media is stable. However as far as I know it won't
> spread reads, so you'll still get the performance of one disk.

More importantly, it won't spread writes.

> A more complete solution, that requires no software changes, would be
> to have 3 or 4 disks. A stripe for really fast reads and writes, and
> another disk (or another stripe) to act as a slave to the data being
> written to the primary stripe. This seems to do what you want, at a
> small price premium.

No.  That's not really what I am describing at all.

I apologize if my original description was unclear.  Hopefully it is
more so now.

b.

Re: interesting use case for multiple devices and delayed raid?

[Dmitri Nikulin]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Brian J. Murrell <brian@interlinx.bc.ca=
> wrote:
>> A more complete solution, that requires no software changes, would b=
e
>> to have 3 or 4 disks. A stripe for really fast reads and writes, and
>> another disk (or another stripe) to act as a slave to the data being
>> written to the primary stripe. This seems to do what you want, at a
>> small price premium.
>
> No. =C2=A0That's not really what I am describing at all.

Well you get the bandwidth of 2 disks when reading and writing, and
still mirrored to a second stripe as time permits. Kind of like
delayed RAID10.

> I apologize if my original description was unclear. =C2=A0Hopefully i=
t is
> more so now.

Yes. It'll be up to the actual filesystem devs to weigh in on whether
it's worth implementing.

--=20
Dmitri Nikulin

Centre for Synchrotron Science
Monash University
Victoria 3800, Australia
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Re: interesting use case for multiple devices and delayed raid?

[Chris Mason]

On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 16:41 +1100, Dmitri Nikulin wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Brian J. Murrell <brian@interlinx.bc.ca> wrote:
> >> A more complete solution, that requires no software changes, would be
> >> to have 3 or 4 disks. A stripe for really fast reads and writes, and
> >> another disk (or another stripe) to act as a slave to the data being
> >> written to the primary stripe. This seems to do what you want, at a
> >> small price premium.
> >
> > No.  That's not really what I am describing at all.
> 
> Well you get the bandwidth of 2 disks when reading and writing, and
> still mirrored to a second stripe as time permits. Kind of like
> delayed RAID10.
> 
> > I apologize if my original description was unclear.  Hopefully it is
> > more so now.
> 
> Yes. It'll be up to the actual filesystem devs to weigh in on whether
> it's worth implementing.
> 

It's an interesting idea, but I think we've got fast front end devices
higher up on the todo list.  That will still support the destaging to
slower disks idea, but will be more flexible overall.

-chris