snapshot/subvol deletion

snapshot/subvol deletion

[Yan, Zheng]

Hi,

I will send a series patches that add snapshot/subvol deletion soon.
But the way to delete snapshot/subvol is far from people's expectancy.
To delete a snapshot/subvol, we need four steps: 1) snapshot/subvol
deletion ioctl or rmdir; 2) umount; 3) btrfsck; 4) mount the fs.

The reason for this is bug in root back & forward references. In simple
terms, the bug prevents us from knowing how many places a snapshot/subvol
is referenced. So it's unsafe delete corresponding fs tree immediately
after a link to snapshot/subvol is removed.

Regards
Yan, Zheng

Re: snapshot/subvol deletion

[Chris Mason]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:38:01PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I will send a series patches that add snapshot/subvol deletion soon.
> But the way to delete snapshot/subvol is far from people's expectancy.
> To delete a snapshot/subvol, we need four steps: 1) snapshot/subvol
> deletion ioctl or rmdir; 2) umount; 3) btrfsck; 4) mount the fs.
> 
> The reason for this is bug in root back & forward references. In simple
> terms, the bug prevents us from knowing how many places a snapshot/subvol
> is referenced. So it's unsafe delete corresponding fs tree immediately
> after a link to snapshot/subvol is removed.

Thanks for working on this, its a major feature.  The problem with the
forward/backward reference counting is that our links to a subvolume or
snapshot are really more like symbolic links than active references.

If a directory entry points to a subvolume and someone uses rm -rf to
delete the files inside that subvolume or snapshot, you get the same kind of
semantics as deleting the subvolume with the ioctl.

So, we should be able to delete the snapshot without the unmount step.
It may create an invalid reference but the code to follow snapshot
directory items will have to be changed to deal with that.

If we later on allow root ids to be reused, the directory item pointing
to a subvol will again be like a symbolic link.  You'll end up in the
new subvol instead of the old.

-chris

Re: snapshot/subvol deletion

[Josef Bacik]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:03:51AM -0400, Chris Mason wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:38:01PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I will send a series patches that add snapshot/subvol deletion soon.
> > But the way to delete snapshot/subvol is far from people's expectancy.
> > To delete a snapshot/subvol, we need four steps: 1) snapshot/subvol
> > deletion ioctl or rmdir; 2) umount; 3) btrfsck; 4) mount the fs.
> > 
> > The reason for this is bug in root back & forward references. In simple
> > terms, the bug prevents us from knowing how many places a snapshot/subvol
> > is referenced. So it's unsafe delete corresponding fs tree immediately
> > after a link to snapshot/subvol is removed.
> 
> Thanks for working on this, its a major feature.  The problem with the
> forward/backward reference counting is that our links to a subvolume or
> snapshot are really more like symbolic links than active references.
> 
> If a directory entry points to a subvolume and someone uses rm -rf to
> delete the files inside that subvolume or snapshot, you get the same kind of
> semantics as deleting the subvolume with the ioctl.
> 
> So, we should be able to delete the snapshot without the unmount step.
> It may create an invalid reference but the code to follow snapshot
> directory items will have to be changed to deal with that.
> 
> If we later on allow root ids to be reused, the directory item pointing
> to a subvol will again be like a symbolic link.  You'll end up in the
> new subvol instead of the old.
> 

So the problem is the directory entry for the snapshot?  What if we just went
ahead and added an orphan item for the inode, remove the dir index and dir
item's so that it doesn't show up on ls and such, and then the next time we
mount the orphan entry gets cleaned up.  That way we can skip the fsck
altogether.  Or am I missing something as per usual?

Josef

Re: snapshot/subvol deletion

[Chris Mason]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:53:17AM -0400, Josef Bacik wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:03:51AM -0400, Chris Mason wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:38:01PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I will send a series patches that add snapshot/subvol deletion soon.
> > > But the way to delete snapshot/subvol is far from people's expectancy.
> > > To delete a snapshot/subvol, we need four steps: 1) snapshot/subvol
> > > deletion ioctl or rmdir; 2) umount; 3) btrfsck; 4) mount the fs.
> > > 
> > > The reason for this is bug in root back & forward references. In simple
> > > terms, the bug prevents us from knowing how many places a snapshot/subvol
> > > is referenced. So it's unsafe delete corresponding fs tree immediately
> > > after a link to snapshot/subvol is removed.
> > 
> > Thanks for working on this, its a major feature.  The problem with the
> > forward/backward reference counting is that our links to a subvolume or
> > snapshot are really more like symbolic links than active references.
> > 
> > If a directory entry points to a subvolume and someone uses rm -rf to
> > delete the files inside that subvolume or snapshot, you get the same kind of
> > semantics as deleting the subvolume with the ioctl.
> > 
> > So, we should be able to delete the snapshot without the unmount step.
> > It may create an invalid reference but the code to follow snapshot
> > directory items will have to be changed to deal with that.
> > 
> > If we later on allow root ids to be reused, the directory item pointing
> > to a subvol will again be like a symbolic link.  You'll end up in the
> > new subvol instead of the old.
> > 
> 
> So the problem is the directory entry for the snapshot?  What if we just went
> ahead and added an orphan item for the inode, remove the dir index and dir
> item's so that it doesn't show up on ls and such, and then the next time we
> mount the orphan entry gets cleaned up.  That way we can skip the fsck
> altogether.  Or am I missing something as per usual?

;) The problem is the directory entry for the snapshot, but its a little
more complex. Lets say subvolA has a directory entry for snapshotZ, and
then someone wanders in and snapshots subvolA, creating snapshotA'.

This means that both subvolA and snashotA' have a directory entry for
snapshotZ.  If we delete snapshotZ we have to deal with both directory
entries.

We can solve this by expanding the backref code for subvol roots, but
then taking a new snapshot becomes O(number of snapshots in the
original) for updating backrefs.

Or we could give in and admit that snapshot references in the filesystem
are symbolic links.  Both methods have disadvantages ;)

-chris

Re: snapshot/subvol deletion

[Andy Lutomirski]

Chris Mason wrote:
> 
> ;) The problem is the directory entry for the snapshot, but its a little
> more complex. Lets say subvolA has a directory entry for snapshotZ, and
> then someone wanders in and snapshots subvolA, creating snapshotA'.
> 
> This means that both subvolA and snashotA' have a directory entry for
> snapshotZ.  If we delete snapshotZ we have to deal with both directory
> entries.

I would've expected that, if we delete snapshotZ by IOCTL / rmdir / 
whatever from within snapshotA', then it still exists until it's also 
deleted from (the original) subvolA.  But maybe I just don't get it.

Is there some end-user-oriented documentation on what the semantics of 
snapshots and subvolumes are supposed to be?  I couldn't find it with a 
bit of Googling and wiki reading.

--Andy

Re: snapshot/subvol deletion

[Yan, Zheng]

On 08/25/2009 11:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:38:01PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I will send a series patches that add snapshot/subvol deletion soon.
>> But the way to delete snapshot/subvol is far from people's expectancy.
>> To delete a snapshot/subvol, we need four steps: 1) snapshot/subvol
>> deletion ioctl or rmdir; 2) umount; 3) btrfsck; 4) mount the fs.
>>
>> The reason for this is bug in root back & forward references. In simple
>> terms, the bug prevents us from knowing how many places a snapshot/subvol
>> is referenced. So it's unsafe delete corresponding fs tree immediately
>> after a link to snapshot/subvol is removed.
> 
> Thanks for working on this, its a major feature.  The problem with the
> forward/backward reference counting is that our links to a subvolume or
> snapshot are really more like symbolic links than active references.
>
> If a directory entry points to a subvolume and someone uses rm -rf to
> delete the files inside that subvolume or snapshot, you get the same kind of
> semantics as deleting the subvolume with the ioctl.
>

I don't think so. For each links to a subvolume, there is a separate dentry.
For all symbolic links to a directory, there is only one dentry. So the
semantics are different, at least from VFS' point of view.

> So, we should be able to delete the snapshot without the unmount step.
> It may create an invalid reference but the code to follow snapshot
> directory items will have to be changed to deal with that.
> 
> If we later on allow root ids to be reused, the directory item pointing
> to a subvol will again be like a symbolic link.  You'll end up in the
> new subvol instead of the old.
> 

The extent back reference does not allow reusing objectid of deleted
root.

Yan, Zheng

Re: snapshot/subvol deletion

[Chris Mason]

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 01:25:09PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
> On 08/25/2009 11:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:38:01PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I will send a series patches that add snapshot/subvol deletion soon.
> >> But the way to delete snapshot/subvol is far from people's expectancy.
> >> To delete a snapshot/subvol, we need four steps: 1) snapshot/subvol
> >> deletion ioctl or rmdir; 2) umount; 3) btrfsck; 4) mount the fs.
> >>
> >> The reason for this is bug in root back & forward references. In simple
> >> terms, the bug prevents us from knowing how many places a snapshot/subvol
> >> is referenced. So it's unsafe delete corresponding fs tree immediately
> >> after a link to snapshot/subvol is removed.
> > 
> > Thanks for working on this, its a major feature.  The problem with the
> > forward/backward reference counting is that our links to a subvolume or
> > snapshot are really more like symbolic links than active references.
> >
> > If a directory entry points to a subvolume and someone uses rm -rf to
> > delete the files inside that subvolume or snapshot, you get the same kind of
> > semantics as deleting the subvolume with the ioctl.
> >
> 
> I don't think so. For each links to a subvolume, there is a separate dentry.
> For all symbolic links to a directory, there is only one dentry. So the
> semantics are different, at least from VFS' point of view.

Yes, in terms of how things are implemented in the VFS, it is different.
In terms of the behavior seen by users its a symbolic link.  We could
actually implement them as symlinks, but I didn't like the idea of
having to follow links as part of cp -a.

> 
> > So, we should be able to delete the snapshot without the unmount step.
> > It may create an invalid reference but the code to follow snapshot
> > directory items will have to be changed to deal with that.
> > 
> > If we later on allow root ids to be reused, the directory item pointing
> > to a subvol will again be like a symbolic link.  You'll end up in the
> > new subvol instead of the old.
> > 
> 
> The extent back reference does not allow reusing objectid of deleted
> root.

Right, at least not until all tree blocks that have that obectid as a
reference are gone.

-chris

Re: snapshot/subvol deletion

[Yan, Zheng]

On 08/26/2009 02:50 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 01:25:09PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
>> On 08/25/2009 11:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:38:01PM +0800, Yan, Zheng wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I will send a series patches that add snapshot/subvol deletion soon.
>>>> But the way to delete snapshot/subvol is far from people's expectancy.
>>>> To delete a snapshot/subvol, we need four steps: 1) snapshot/subvol
>>>> deletion ioctl or rmdir; 2) umount; 3) btrfsck; 4) mount the fs.
>>>>
>>>> The reason for this is bug in root back & forward references. In simple
>>>> terms, the bug prevents us from knowing how many places a snapshot/subvol
>>>> is referenced. So it's unsafe delete corresponding fs tree immediately
>>>> after a link to snapshot/subvol is removed.
>>>
>>> Thanks for working on this, its a major feature.  The problem with the
>>> forward/backward reference counting is that our links to a subvolume or
>>> snapshot are really more like symbolic links than active references.
>>>
>>> If a directory entry points to a subvolume and someone uses rm -rf to
>>> delete the files inside that subvolume or snapshot, you get the same kind of
>>> semantics as deleting the subvolume with the ioctl.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think so. For each links to a subvolume, there is a separate dentry.
>> For all symbolic links to a directory, there is only one dentry. So the
>> semantics are different, at least from VFS' point of view.
> 
> Yes, in terms of how things are implemented in the VFS, it is different.
> In terms of the behavior seen by users its a symbolic link.  We could
> actually implement them as symlinks, but I didn't like the idea of
> having to follow links as part of cp -a.
> 

I thought about it again. I think we can use vfsmount to simulate symbolic's
behavior.

Yan, Zheng