Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Brett Mueller]

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Good day all,

I am currently brainstorming on developing and implementing a amateur
network in our region (northeast Oregon, southeast Washington), to
include using 802.11 devices running under US FCC part 97 regulations,
similar to Green Bay Professional Packet Radio:
    http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/

But, having had some very positive experience with commercial outdoor
802.11a/b/g access points built around Linux single board computers
(SBC), I'd really like to move in that general direction.  That is, I'd
like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run
LinuxNode at the least, or preferrably (X)Net.  I'd imagine that the
latter would mean that the CPU would have to be x86 compatible, since
(X)Net is not open source and only binaries are available for it.  The
ability to compile the kernel is almost certainly a must, to roll in
AX.25 support, etc.  Since some of the sites are fairly remote and
inaccessible for six months of the year, stability and reliability is an
absolute must.  For that reason, I'm leaning towards the 2.2 series
kernels, as my experience was that it was always rock solid with AX.25
compiled in -- although I did just have 190 days uptime on my gateway
with 2.4.24 before it inexplicably rebooted (power bump? -- my UPS is shot).

Has anyone already expended some energy along these lines, either time
on the drawing boards, or actually spent building such a system?  Any
words of wisdom?  It would be much appreciated.

73 es tnx,

Brett Mueller, WA7V

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Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Braddock Gaskill]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:34:45AM -0700, Brett Mueller wrote:
> like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
> operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
> ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run

One of the niftiest ideas I can think of in this realm would be to use
a Linksys WRT54GS access point as a Linux Packet device.  It runs
Linux, with OpenWRT firmware you have a fully read/write 6MB
filesystem in firmware, and you can easilly hack on two serial ports
to talk to external TNCs (although I'm not sure they support hardware
handshaking).  Oh, and it would remain a 6-ethernet-port Wifi device. :)

http://www.rwhitby.net/wrt54gs/serial.html

That hack would be slashdot-worthy, and probably not TOO hard.  :)

Braddock Gaskill
Writing this through a reflashed BusyBox Linux WRT54G...

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:34:45AM -0700, Brett Mueller wrote:
> I am currently brainstorming on developing and implementing a amateur
> network in our region (northeast Oregon, southeast Washington), to
> include using 802.11 devices running under US FCC part 97 regulations,
> similar to Green Bay Professional Packet Radio:
>     http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/
> 
> But, having had some very positive experience with commercial outdoor
> 802.11a/b/g access points built around Linux single board computers
> (SBC), I'd really like to move in that general direction.  That is, I'd
> like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
> operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
> ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run
> LinuxNode at the least, or preferrably (X)Net.  I'd imagine that the
> latter would mean that the CPU would have to be x86 compatible, since
> (X)Net is not open source and only binaries are available for it.  The
> ability to compile the kernel is almost certainly a must, to roll in
> AX.25 support, etc.  Since some of the sites are fairly remote and
> inaccessible for six months of the year, stability and reliability is an
> absolute must.  For that reason, I'm leaning towards the 2.2 series
> kernels, as my experience was that it was always rock solid with AX.25
> compiled in -- although I did just have 190 days uptime on my gateway
> with 2.4.24 before it inexplicably rebooted (power bump? -- my UPS is shot).
> 
> Has anyone already expended some energy along these lines, either time
> on the drawing boards, or actually spent building such a system?  Any
> words of wisdom?  It would be much appreciated.
> 
> 73 es tnx,
> 
> Brett Mueller, WA7V
> 
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> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
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Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 01:58:01PM -0400, Braddock Gaskill wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:34:45AM -0700, Brett Mueller wrote:
> > like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
> > operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
> > ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run
> 
> One of the niftiest ideas I can think of in this realm would be to use
> a Linksys WRT54GS access point as a Linux Packet device.  It runs

I think so too. Sometime soon I want to move my APRS gateway (running
aprsd) onto the Linksys with the TNC connected to a hacked-in serial
port. 

That may mean recompiling the 54GS kernel to add AX.25.
Has anyone done this already?


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Chuck Hast]

On 6/21/05, Hamish Moffatt <hamish@cloud.net.au> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 01:58:01PM -0400, Braddock Gaskill wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:34:45AM -0700, Brett Mueller wrote:
> > > like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
> > > operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
> > > ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run
> >
> > One of the niftiest ideas I can think of in this realm would be to use
> > a Linksys WRT54GS access point as a Linux Packet device.  It runs
> 
> I think so too. Sometime soon I want to move my APRS gateway (running
> aprsd) onto the Linksys with the TNC connected to a hacked-in serial
> port.
> 
> That may mean recompiling the 54GS kernel to add AX.25.
> Has anyone done this already?
> 


Ahh, now I do not feel so bad, I had this somewhat perverted dream of
doing the same thing... Multidrop kiss would allow you to have more
than one TNC hanging off of the thing... If 6pack for Linux is fixed for
multiple tnc's then it would be even better....


-- 
Chuck Hast 
To paraphrase my flight instructor;
"the only dumb question is the one you DID NOT ask resulting in my going
out and having to identify your bits and pieces in the midst of torn
and twisted metal."

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[John Ronan]

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Hi there,

I've been working on a project in work for the last few months.  I've  
based my work on cqureap Linux Wireless Access Point

and as well updating all the packages and changing it to write a  
Compact Flash Image (instead of floppy), It's relatively  
straightforward to add any package thats required.

For work we are building a Linux Access Point and adding intrusion  
detection functionality, using Atheros PCI/PCMCIA Cards  (great cards  
btw, real good for backbone links as well at 5.8Ghz).

This week I'm in London trying to co-ordinate with others at an  
Integration/Project Audit event.


I'm currently using the  EPIA MII10000 motherboard

If anyone is really interested I have a draft document explaining (to  
myself) how it all hangs together, and if someone is really  
interested I could send them the draft.. but its not of good quality.

My own plan is to take what I've learned, and make a CF image that  
would allow me to put Digi_ned/java aprs server on a box and use it  
then as an APRS Node/Igate OR, I might just move to using a picotux,  
I've not really decided yet.

Regards
de John
EI7IG

P.S. I've re-sent this with all urls removed... the last one got  
blocked.





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Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Mike Murphree]

On Jun 21, 2005, at 12:58 PM, Braddock Gaskill wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:34:45AM -0700, Brett Mueller wrote:
>
>> like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
>> operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
>> ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run
>>
>
> One of the niftiest ideas I can think of in this realm would be to use
> a Linksys WRT54GS access point as a Linux Packet device.  It runs
> Linux, with OpenWRT firmware you have a fully read/write 6MB
> filesystem in firmware, and you can easilly hack on two serial ports
> to talk to external TNCs (although I'm not sure they support hardware
> handshaking).  Oh, and it would remain a 6-ethernet-port Wifi  
> device. :)
>
> http://www.rwhitby.net/wrt54gs/serial.html
>
> That hack would be slashdot-worthy, and probably not TOO hard.  :)

The last time that I was in Wal-Mart, the WRT54G (no S) model is down  
to $58 now too...

FYI, the Sveasoft Talisman firmware is really nice.

Mike

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Ralf Baechle DL5RB]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 10:34:45AM -0700, Brett Mueller wrote:

> But, having had some very positive experience with commercial outdoor
> 802.11a/b/g access points built around Linux single board computers
> (SBC), I'd really like to move in that general direction.  That is, I'd
> like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
> operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
> ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run
> LinuxNode at the least, or preferrably (X)Net.  I'd imagine that the
> latter would mean that the CPU would have to be x86 compatible, since
> (X)Net is not open source and only binaries are available for it.

I've ported Xnet to MIPS; it's been demonstrated on the Packet Radio
Congress in Darmstadt in April running on a WRT54G wireless access point.

>  The
> ability to compile the kernel is almost certainly a must, to roll in
> AX.25 support, etc.  Since some of the sites are fairly remote and
> inaccessible for six months of the year, stability and reliability is an
> absolute must.

In such a case you want a watchdog or remote reset facility anyway.  And
a machine that minimizes mechnical parts such as fans.

  For that reason, I'm leaning towards the 2.2 series
> kernels, as my experience was that it was always rock solid with AX.25
> compiled in -- although I did just have 190 days uptime on my gateway
> with 2.4.24 before it inexplicably rebooted (power bump? -- my UPS is shot).

Pure luck.  The kernel AX.25 was and is full of potencially fatal bugs.

> Has anyone already expended some energy along these lines, either time
> on the drawing boards, or actually spent building such a system?  Any
> words of wisdom?  It would be much appreciated.

The wisdom says use proven OTS components :-)  It may not be as fun as
homebrewing but minimizes potencial points of failure.

73 de DL5RB op Ralf

--
Loc. JN47BS / CQ 14 / ITU 28 / DOK A21

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Patrick Koehn]

Hi, Brent - 

I've spent a lot of time trying to get a small version of linux running
on a Soekris Engineering single-board computer (http://soekris.com),
with the intent of running packet radio through it.  Ultimately it will
be the communications payload for a weather balloon, similar to what
Jim Meehan did at http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/balloon/.

I thought the tough part would be getting the OS running - not so.  I'm
using Bering 1.2, which runs fine by itself but has no way to rebuild
the kernel - no make, no gcc, no nothing.  I'm trying to build an ax25
module on another machine, but I'm a kernel-building newbie and I'm
scratching around in the dark.

If you *do* come up with something, please share!  And if anyone out
there has tried what I'm trying, or has a better suggestion, please
chime in!

Thanks, and good luck!

Patrick Koehn

--- Brett Mueller <wa7v@wa7v.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Good day all,
> 
> I am currently brainstorming on developing and implementing a amateur
> network in our region (northeast Oregon, southeast Washington), to
> include using 802.11 devices running under US FCC part 97
> regulations,
> similar to Green Bay Professional Packet Radio:
>     http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/
> 
> But, having had some very positive experience with commercial outdoor
> 802.11a/b/g access points built around Linux single board computers
> (SBC), I'd really like to move in that general direction.  That is,
> I'd
> like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
> operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
> ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.  I'd like the ability to run
> LinuxNode at the least, or preferrably (X)Net.  I'd imagine that the
> latter would mean that the CPU would have to be x86 compatible, since
> (X)Net is not open source and only binaries are available for it. 
> The
> ability to compile the kernel is almost certainly a must, to roll in
> AX.25 support, etc.  Since some of the sites are fairly remote and
> inaccessible for six months of the year, stability and reliability is
> an
> absolute must.  For that reason, I'm leaning towards the 2.2 series
> kernels, as my experience was that it was always rock solid with
> AX.25
> compiled in -- although I did just have 190 days uptime on my gateway
> with 2.4.24 before it inexplicably rebooted (power bump? -- my UPS is
> shot).
> 
> Has anyone already expended some energy along these lines, either
> time
> on the drawing boards, or actually spent building such a system?  Any
> words of wisdom?  It would be much appreciated.
> 
> 73 es tnx,
> 
> Brett Mueller, WA7V
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> 
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> X8hPIkxiQhV27ABjrHsQq78=
> =dxDx
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams"
> in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Dennis Boone]

 > But, having had some very positive experience with commercial outdoor
 > 802.11a/b/g access points built around Linux single board computers
 > (SBC), I'd really like to move in that general direction.  That is,
 > I'd like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
 > operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
 > ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.

There's lots of vendors with boards like this.  Though I haven't
used any of their stuff some of the local guys are fond of Soekris
(www.soekris.com) for hardware hackery projects.  Soekris seems to be
a small house with pretty sharp people, and their stuff is inexpensive.
Their 4526 board seems made for your project.

De

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Brett Mueller]

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On 6/21/2005 10:34, I wrote, in part:
> I am currently brainstorming on developing and implementing a amateur
> network in our region (northeast Oregon, southeast Washington), to
> include using 802.11 devices running under US FCC part 97 regulations,
<snip>
> I'd like to build a system with no moving parts, using Linux as the
> operating system, with miniPCI 802.11 radio cards, and having serial
> ports to support KISS or 6PACK on TNCs.

Hello everyone.  First off, thank you very much for your responses, both
on list and off.  I really appreciate them.  I was directed to a number
of good resources, some which I had previously found, and others that I
hadn't.  As I read some of your replies, I realized that I had neglected
to mention a key fact that can significantly impact my selection of
hardware: the project has a decent level of funding.  As a ham, I know
what it's like to come up with solutions on a shoestring budget --
oftentimes "it may not be glamorous, but it works!"  In this case,
however, I have access to a number of prime public safety sites, and can
spend a bit more on equipment than the average ham can cough up
(certainly more than I could on my own).  Also, equipment installed in
those locations must be professional in appearance, and meet standards
for grounding, lightning protection, etc.

For other (non-ham) projects, I have used Demarctech outdoor access
points, which have a nicely laid-out Linux-based system (StarOS Router)
on a PC Engines WRAP board (AMD Geode CPU).
  http://www.demarctech.com/products/reliawave-rwv/rwv.htm
  http://www.staros.com/
  http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap.htm
For this proposed ham project, I was envisioning something similar,
while adding the ability to load amateur-related software on the system.
 I'd like to be able to have dedicated point-to-point connections
between the sites, perhaps on 5.8 GHz where possible.  This would
preclude using the WRT54G for those links, although I can see great
possibilities for the Linksys unit elsewhere -- particularly other
"peripheral" sites that don't have the "funding" resources available.
Thanks to those that pointed out the great capabilities and hackability
(in the old traditional sense of the word) of the WRT54G.

Compact flash cards certainly seem like the way to go (as per my
original criteria -- no moving parts), but I think I'd probably invest
in a CF - IDE adapter (especially if I went with an x86 based solution)
so that I could compile/install/test from a faster machine.

Power-over-ethernet (POE) is great stuff, too, where you can easily
mount the SBC / radio in an outdoor enclosure, use a meter or so of
feedline to minimize your losses, and run some relatively inexpensive
UV-rated CAT5 down the tower and into the facility (through lightning
protection, of course).

Ralf's MIPS port of (X)Net also opens up other possibilities, having the
option of using it on SBCs based on the MIPS architecture.  He also
correctly points out the inherent problems in the kernel AX.25 code, and
I came to the realization that AX.25 support in the kernel would be
unnecessary if (X)Net was running.

I like the looks of the Soekris boards that a couple of people pointed
me to.  I'd like to find one with dual Mini-PCI and dual serial ports,
but I'm not seeing it.  (hmm, will (X)Net do something like MKISS?)
Nevertheless, great possibilities there.

Paul directed me to a "smallish" distro called Pebble Linux.  Their page
also includes good information on setting up a Soekris access point:
http://www.nycwireless.net/pebble

I'll keep sorting through the information out there.  Thanks again...

73,

Brett, WA7V

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Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Ralf Baechle DL5RB]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 04:46:12PM -0700, Brett Mueller wrote:

> Ralf's MIPS port of (X)Net also opens up other possibilities, having the
> option of using it on SBCs based on the MIPS architecture.  He also
> correctly points out the inherent problems in the kernel AX.25 code, and
> I came to the realization that AX.25 support in the kernel would be
> unnecessary if (X)Net was running.

In the end I however consider usermode stack integrated with a whole set
of applications and server daemons such as Xnet a design mistake for
operating systems such as Linux that are pretending to have full blown and
universal network stacks and I'm working - time permitting - on getting
the kernel stack to work just as well.  Nontrivial, challenging - and
hopefully at some point - also rewarding ...

  Ralf

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:36:02PM +0200, Ralf Baechle DL5RB wrote:
> In the end I however consider usermode stack integrated with a whole set
> of applications and server daemons such as Xnet a design mistake for
> operating systems such as Linux that are pretending to have full blown and
> universal network stacks and I'm working - time permitting - on getting
> the kernel stack to work just as well.  Nontrivial, challenging - and
> hopefully at some point - also rewarding ...

In the case of the WRT54GS, I'm concerned that it will be running linux
2.4 yet AX.25 (from what I've read) was never too good on 2.4.

I want to run an APRS gateway on it and aprsd can work with just a
serial port to the TNC, but I prefer the AX.25 method. (And I might want
to switch away from AX.25 at some point).

I don't know if the WRT54GS could be upgraded to 2.6; I think it has
some proprietary (binary-only) drivers for the Broadcom wifi chipset.


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[IT3 Stuart Blake Tener]

Quoting Hamish Moffatt <hamish@cloud.net.au>:
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:36:02PM +0200, Ralf Baechle DL5RB wrote:

[...verbiage clipped in the name of brevity...]

>
> I don't know if the WRT54GS could be upgraded to 2.6; I think it has
> some proprietary (binary-only) drivers for the Broadcom wifi chipset.

I am aware that the WRT54GS (and many other of the some several products that
Linksys makes) use a Linux Kernel for their firwmare. However, I have not yet
secured time to review the released source code for these kernels. If the Wifi
drivers for the Broadcom Wifi adapter inclusive to a particular Linksys product
are something other than a loadable module (supplied presumably in binary format
only), i.e. are written into the kernel, and Linksys has not released the kernel
inclusive of said source code for the Broadcom driver, then I would contend that
their is a potential cause of action to force Linksys to release the Broadcom
Wifi driver source code!

Or are you saying that the Broadcom drivers are being supplied as loadable
modules in binary form?

I do not own a 54GS, and therefore have not reviewed the source code and
firmware releases.

Just some food for thought!


-- 
IT3 Stuart Blake Tener, USN (RC)
Beverly Hills, CA
(310) 358-0202
teners at bh90210 dot net

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Ralf Baechle DL5RB]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 10:49:21PM -0400, IT3 Stuart Blake Tener wrote:

> I do not own a 54GS, and therefore have not reviewed the source code and
> firmware releases.

Nor probably are you a copyright holder.  Initially Broadcom wasn't
shipping source code at all, a group of Linux copyright owners, including
me, and the FSF negotiated the issue with Broadcom.  In the end they
did release a very comprehensive tarballs of source code, tools etc.
which should even to a newbie permit rebuilding the code.

The only problem were the wireless drivers; the Japanese regulatory
authorites, the MIC, has some regulations that basically prohibit opening
the access to the transmitter controlls such as power and frequency.
The FCC's rules could be interpreted in similar ways and so in the end
we agreed on this being a fair compromise.

73 de DL5RB op Ralf

--
Loc. JN47BS / CQ 14 / ITU 28 / DOK A21

Re: Embedded Linux and Amateur Radio

[Bob Nielsen]

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 12:12:45PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:36:02PM +0200, Ralf Baechle DL5RB wrote:
> > In the end I however consider usermode stack integrated with a whole set
> > of applications and server daemons such as Xnet a design mistake for
> > operating systems such as Linux that are pretending to have full blown and
> > universal network stacks and I'm working - time permitting - on getting
> > the kernel stack to work just as well.  Nontrivial, challenging - and
> > hopefully at some point - also rewarding ...
> 
> In the case of the WRT54GS, I'm concerned that it will be running linux
> 2.4 yet AX.25 (from what I've read) was never too good on 2.4.
> 
> I want to run an APRS gateway on it and aprsd can work with just a
> serial port to the TNC, but I prefer the AX.25 method. (And I might want
> to switch away from AX.25 at some point).
> 
> I don't know if the WRT54GS could be upgraded to 2.6; I think it has
> some proprietary (binary-only) drivers for the Broadcom wifi chipset.
> 

I recall that early 2.4 (<2.4.18?) kernels had problems with AX.25, but 
I have been running a DX Spider node with 2.4 kernels (currently 2.4.26) 
for quite a while and have not experienced any AX.25 difficulties.

Bob, N7XY