Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR]

ALCON:

I am interested in finding out what efforts (if any) maybe underway with regard
to trying to get AX.25, and other sorts of Amateur Radio Support for the MacOS
environment.

I saw Bent's announcement, and I wonder if developers of Amateur Radio Software
under Linux ever consider attempting to try to compile their software within an
Apple environment (MacOS)?

I am by no means a BSD/MacOS type kernel developer, but my understanding is that
MacOS certainly does support loadable modules.


Thanks in advance.

73,

Stuart, N3GWG

-- 
IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP
Beverly Hills, CA / Las Vegas, NV / Philadelphia, PA / Washington, DC
mobile: (310) 358-0202
Nextel: 124*233172*14 (direct connect)
e-mail: teners@bh90210.net

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR wrote:

> I am interested in finding out what efforts (if any) maybe underway with regard
> to trying to get AX.25, and other sorts of Amateur Radio Support for the MacOS
> environment.
>
> I saw Bent's announcement, and I wonder if developers of Amateur Radio Software
> under Linux ever consider attempting to try to compile their software within an
> Apple environment (MacOS)?

You mean like Xastir?   http://www.xastir.org

There are ways to use Xastir with a KISS TNC under Solaris, HP/UX,
MacOSX, Linux, and FreeBSD, without having to set up AX.25
interfaces.  Of course if you have AX.25 interfaces set up (in Linux
only), you can use them with Xastir as well.

I know that's not quite what you're asking about, but several of our
users are running Xastir on OSX and happy with it, so at least for
APRS you have some options there.

--
Curt, WE7U: <www.eskimo.com/~archer/>     XASTIR: <www.xastir.org>
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR]

Curt:

These topics have a way of morfing, and I am trying to keep things focused on
how to get AX.25 KEXT kernel support written, ported, or discussed.

Thanks for the xastir info, but I am hoping more people respond on topic to the
kernel extensions for MacOS I am interested in.


V/R,

Stuart, N3GWG


Quoting "Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com>:

> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR wrote:
>
> > I am interested in finding out what efforts (if any) maybe underway with
> regard
> > to trying to get AX.25, and other sorts of Amateur Radio Support for the
> MacOS
> > environment.
> >
> > I saw Bent's announcement, and I wonder if developers of Amateur Radio
> Software
> > under Linux ever consider attempting to try to compile their software
> within an
> > Apple environment (MacOS)?
>
> You mean like Xastir?   http://www.xastir.org
>
> There are ways to use Xastir with a KISS TNC under Solaris, HP/UX,
> MacOSX, Linux, and FreeBSD, without having to set up AX.25
> interfaces.  Of course if you have AX.25 interfaces set up (in Linux
> only), you can use them with Xastir as well.
>
> I know that's not quite what you're asking about, but several of our
> users are running Xastir on OSX and happy with it, so at least for
> APRS you have some options there.
>
> --
> Curt, WE7U: <www.eskimo.com/~archer/>     XASTIR: <www.xastir.org>
>   "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
> "Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
> The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
>


-- 
IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP
Beverly Hills, CA / Las Vegas, NV / Philadelphia, PA / Washington, DC
mobile: (310) 358-0202
Nextel: 124*233172*14 (direct connect)
e-mail: teners@bh90210.net

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Matti Aarnio]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 04:49:10PM +0000, IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR wrote:
> 
> I am interested in finding out what efforts (if any) maybe underway with
> regard to trying to get AX.25, and other sorts of Amateur Radio Support
> for the MacOS environment.
> 
> I saw Bent's announcement, and I wonder if developers of Amateur Radio
> Software under Linux ever consider attempting to try to compile their
> software within an Apple environment (MacOS)?

Like others have noted, nothing prevents making integrated applications
that are able to talk with radio modems et.al.   They are not as integrable
as AX.25 packet radio protocols in Linux are, but that is fairly limited
application suite anyway.   Xastir for APRS is one example that is truly
platform agnostic -- some say "portable".

Several applications exist for HF data modulations, and EME work with
Joe Taylor's softwares.   Those need in essence some way to listen using
line mode (or even microphone) input, and transmit with line out (or
headphones) plus some way to key the transmitter.


What I think that Linux needs (and other operating systems as well)
is an easy way to write a protocol engine server process to be run
in user space, and then have kernel to hook socket API to that server
process to handle application protocols.   With low-speed protocols
and current generation of hardware that is a lot more sensible approach
than making the protocol in kernel.

For applications the socket API is the best thing there is.
Emulating socket API with a wrapper layer on top of socket connection
is ... cumbersome.  Primarily the  listen()  is rather ugly thing
over generic socket, but over PF_LOCAL the FD passing may save most
of the bacon, so to speak.

I am thinking of making such service for STANAG 5066 for HF data, but
that is "another story".

> I am by no means a BSD/MacOS type kernel developer, but my understanding
> is that MacOS certainly does support loadable modules.

We are somewhat "wrong people" to ask help for other than Linux
environment, especially about kernel side work, but there are known
differences in between Linux and BSD network stacks,  common details
of which do apply regardless of the protocol.  A bit more cumbersome
thing is that Linux kernel codes are GPL(v2) licensed, which is not 
liked by some BSD kernel coders.

> Thanks in advance.
> 73,
> Stuart, N3GWG
> -- 
> IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR, N3GWG (Extra), MROP
> e-mail: teners@bh90210.net

73 de Matti, OH2MQK

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Curt, WE7U]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, IT2 Stuart Blake Tener, USNR wrote:

> These topics have a way of morfing, and I am trying to keep things focused on
> how to get AX.25 KEXT kernel support written, ported, or discussed.
>
> Thanks for the xastir info, but I am hoping more people respond on topic to the
> kernel extensions for MacOS I am interested in.

Sure, understand.  It's what I'd want too if I were running OSX.

Probably more related:  I know of at least one Solaris user that got
"soundmodem" compiled/running.  He configured it as a KISS TNC
instead of an AX.25 networking device.

I'd be interested in whether the same could be done on OSX, or other
Unix-based OS'es (other than Linux, where it's already know to work
in either configuration).  If anybody is successful with that, write
down the details and send them to the list.

I wish I had an OSX box to play with, I'd help with the porting of
AX.25.

Interesting links having to do with AX.25/BSD:

http://www.csu.edu.au/special/auugwww96/proceedings/freebsd/freebsd.html

-and- (read the last comment):

http://bsdtalk.blogspot.com/2007/05/bsdtalk111-freebsd-developer-diane.html

-and-

http://lists.apple.com/archives/darwin-development/2002/Apr/msg00168.html

--
Curt, WE7U: <www.eskimo.com/~archer/>     XASTIR: <www.xastir.org>
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Curt, WE7U]

Another couple of links:

FreeBSD:
http://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org/msg31330.html

NetBSD:  Do they have AX.25 working on this OS?
http://arkiv.netbsd.se/?ml=debian-hams&a=2007-10&t=5434100

Regarding the comment about suitability of this list for AX.25/OSX
discussions:  Where else would they find critical mass?  The
AX.25/Posix guys would most likely be here.

--
Curt, WE7U: <www.eskimo.com/~archer/>     XASTIR: <www.xastir.org>
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Curt, WE7U]

Not sure about this one, but it mentions FreeBSD networking in one
section and AX.25 in another.  If they've implemented the prototype
AX.25 hardware they may have it running under FreeBSD now.  It'd be
worth checking anyway

http://onno.vlsm.org/v09/onno-ind-1/network/ppt-kumuhnet-02-1998.ppt

--
Curt, WE7U: <www.eskimo.com/~archer/>     XASTIR: <www.xastir.org>
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Tomi Manninen]

Matti Aarnio wrote:

> Several applications exist for HF data modulations, and EME work with
> Joe Taylor's softwares.   Those need in essence some way to listen using
> line mode (or even microphone) input, and transmit with line out (or
> headphones) plus some way to key the transmitter.

FWIW, I once took a quick look at how audio is implemented in OSX.
My understanding was that the native interface only supports
callback based audio.

My gMFSK, and I believe most other linux soundcard programs use
blocking or polling for audio data and thus need non-trivial
modifications to be ported to OSX.

The changes needed shouldn't be rocket science, but lacking
hardware to experiment on, I soon lost interest...

/Tomi

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Tomi Manninen]

Frank Brickle wrote:

> Applications that use JACK move smoothly between Linux and OSX. They can 
> also take good advantage of FireWire sound systems like the Edirol 
> FA-66.  Please see http://dttsp.org/wiki for an example of an SDR 
> application that runs on Linux and OSX without pain.

Yes, but IIRC, Jack is also callback based *) and that is the key in my
argument. Doable but non-trivial changes are needed. That requires
someone with the motivation and hardware to do it.

This is not meant to be an excuse why ham radio software is lacking
from OSX (and I don't even know if it really is), just a possible
explanation why at least some soundcard based Linux ham radio programs
are not trivial to port to OSX.


*) I might be mistaking here as well. I remember taking a look at
Jack as well, exactly because it was portable between Linux and OSX.
But IIRC, it too would have required the same architecture change.

/Tomi

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Stephane Fillod]

Tomi Manninen skribis:
> Frank Brickle wrote:
>
>> Applications that use JACK move smoothly between Linux and OSX. They can 
>> also take good advantage of FireWire sound systems like the Edirol FA-66.  
>> Please see http://dttsp.org/wiki for an example of an SDR application that 
>> runs on Linux and OSX without pain.
>
> Yes, but IIRC, Jack is also callback based *) and that is the key in my
> argument. Doable but non-trivial changes are needed. That requires
> someone with the motivation and hardware to do it.
>
> This is not meant to be an excuse why ham radio software is lacking
> from OSX (and I don't even know if it really is), just a possible
> explanation why at least some soundcard based Linux ham radio programs
> are not trivial to port to OSX.

What about Libjackasyn[1] and jacklaunch?
Does PortAudio[2], which is also callback based, have a similar library?

[1] http://gige.xdv.org/libjackasyn/
[2] http://www.portaudio.com/
-- 
Stephane - F8CFE

Re: Amateur Radio -> MacOS?

[Stelios Bounanos]

>>>>> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:10:01 +0100, Stephane Fillod
>>>>> <f8cfe@free.fr> was rumoured to have said:

> Tomi Manninen skribis:
>> Frank Brickle wrote:
>> 
>>> Applications that use JACK move smoothly between Linux and OSX. They can 
>>> also take good advantage of FireWire sound systems like the Edirol FA-66.  
>>> Please see http://dttsp.org/wiki for an example of an SDR application that 
>>> runs on Linux and OSX without pain.
>> 
>> Yes, but IIRC, Jack is also callback based *) and that is the key in my
>> argument. Doable but non-trivial changes are needed. That requires
>> someone with the motivation and hardware to do it.
>> 
>> This is not meant to be an excuse why ham radio software is lacking
>> from OSX (and I don't even know if it really is), just a possible
>> explanation why at least some soundcard based Linux ham radio programs
>> are not trivial to port to OSX.

> What about Libjackasyn[1] and jacklaunch?
> Does PortAudio[2], which is also callback based, have a similar library?

IMO, PortAudio would be a much better option.

PortAudio is callback-based but, in v19, also has a blocking API.
Fldigi uses it and is able to access OSS, ALSA, and JACK. I understand
that PortAudio also supports the OSX sound system (CoreAudio?).

JACK support is a big bonus because it makes fldigi usable with DttSP[0]
and, to a lesser extent, because it makes it easy to run multiple
instances (to decode more than one signal at the same time and test /
experiment).

The move from OSS to blocking PortAudio was fairly straightforward in
fldigi and I would expect this to be the case for gMFSK also.

There are a couple of things to look out for. First, some sound system
features have been placed in PortAudio's "Host API extensions" in such a
way that they are actually unusable with dynamic linking. This has not
been a problem for fldigi, as there was no need to use those extensions
(though setting the JACK client name would be nice).

Second, the OSS style of opening/closing the device for capture/playback
works fine but has an undesirable side effect with Portaudio/JACK
streams -- the port bindings are reset.


[0] http://dttsp.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page


73,
Stelios M0GLD.

-- 

Stelios Bounanos
perl -e 'print+reverse"t\nney.ttno\@esb"=~/(..)/sg'     #key: 0xE88A7F61