Linux on O2?

Linux on O2?

[Bruce Leggett]

Hello,

How many folks are actually out there working on the Linux on mips port?

Is there any work going on towards running Linux on the O2 specifically?

cheers,
bruce

Re: Linux on O2?

[brett]

Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes

-----------------------------------------------
brett wagner	|	brett@madhouse.org
get committed!	|	http://www.madhouse.org
-----------------------------------------------

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Bruce Leggett wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> How many folks are actually out there working on the Linux on mips port?
> 
> Is there any work going on towards running Linux on the O2 specifically?
> 
> cheers,
> bruce
> 

Re: Linux on O2?

[William J. Earl]

brett writes:
 > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
 > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
...

      The original Indigo was R3000-based.  The I/O is an earlier generation
of that used in Indy and Indigo2, so some of the driver work could be reused,
but it is hard to find documentation at this point.  The Indigo R4000
is pretty close to Indy and Indigo2, so it would not be too hard.  On the
other hand, there is no work done so far on supporting the "starter" graphics
on the Indigo R4000.

Re: Linux on O2?

[brett]

well all i care about is the R4000 indigos with "elan" graphics.  i just
happen to have a couple of them kicking around the shop.

b

-----------------------------------------------
brett wagner	|	brett@madhouse.org
get committed!	|	http://www.madhouse.org
-----------------------------------------------

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, William J. Earl wrote:

> brett writes:
>  > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
>  > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
> ...
> 
>       The original Indigo was R3000-based.  The I/O is an earlier generation
> of that used in Indy and Indigo2, so some of the driver work could be reused,
> but it is hard to find documentation at this point.  The Indigo R4000
> is pretty close to Indy and Indigo2, so it would not be too hard.  On the
> other hand, there is no work done so far on supporting the "starter" graphics
> on the Indigo R4000.
> 

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 05:14:25PM -0800, brett wrote:

> Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
> about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes

The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[brett]

why not put a couple of hackers under nda and ship them the source.

b

-----------------------------------------------
brett wagner	|	brett@madhouse.org
get committed!	|	http://www.madhouse.org
-----------------------------------------------

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Ralf Baechle wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 05:14:25PM -0800, brett wrote:
> 
> > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
> > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
> 
> The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
> just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...
> 
>   Ralf
> 

Re: Linux on O2?

[William J. Earl]

Ralf Baechle writes:
 > On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 05:14:25PM -0800, brett wrote:
 > 
 > > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
 > > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
 > 
 > The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
 > just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...

      We might be able to help out with some Indigo R4000 information,
if someone is seriously interested, since the Indigo R4000 is close to
Indigo2 and Indy.  Indigo R3000 is probably hopeless (that development
project was something like 12 years ago, after all).  The graphics is
a tougher problem, since all but Newport and Starter (Indigo) graphics
have geometry engines with relatively complex interfaces.  

     Ralf is quite right about the IRIX source.  Since it is based
on source licensed from SCO, Sun, and others, we do not have the right
to hand it out without cost to others.  

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 03:32:57PM -0800, William J. Earl wrote:

> Ralf Baechle writes:
>  > On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 05:14:25PM -0800, brett wrote:
>  > 
>  > > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
>  > > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
>  > 
>  > The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
>  > just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...
> 
>       We might be able to help out with some Indigo R4000 information,
> if someone is seriously interested, since the Indigo R4000 is close to
> Indigo2 and Indy.  Indigo R3000 is probably hopeless (that development
> project was something like 12 years ago, after all).  The graphics is
> a tougher problem, since all but Newport and Starter (Indigo) graphics
> have geometry engines with relatively complex interfaces.  
> 
>      Ralf is quite right about the IRIX source.  Since it is based
> on source licensed from SCO, Sun, and others, we do not have the right
> to hand it out without cost to others.  

How about if myself and possibly others who currently are under NDA for SGI
would support such projects by describing things via email where
neither docs nor uncontaminated source is available and possibly some
source where it's (C)-clean and managment aproved.  Could something like
that be made working?  It's a shame that still nobody so far has had an
actual chance to start working on an O2 port or something like that.

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[William J. Earl]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii, Size: 1367 bytes --]

Ralf Baechle writes:
...
 > How about if myself and possibly others who currently are under NDA for SGI
 > would support such projects by describing things via email where
 > neither docs nor uncontaminated source is available and possibly some
 > source where it's (C)-clean and managment aproved.  Could something like
 > that be made working?  It's a shame that still nobody so far has had an
 > actual chance to start working on an O2 port or something like that.

       That should be ok; we have approval to do so (and I have
sometimes supplied information on that basis), at least for Indigo, Indigo2,
Indy, and Origin.  (There was some question about Octane and Onyx, especially
in regard to graphics.)  

       If someone is seriously interested in doing an O2 port, I will help
with explanations of the major issues, and we can make documentation available
under the same restrictions as Indy documentation (no redistribution, no
warranty, documentation is known to be inaccurate in various details).  
As I have described earlier, however, an O2 port is a major undertaking.
(It would be quite an interesting and challenging project, but it is
not simple.)

       Again, Indigo documentation, except via the method Ralf suggests,
is going to be hard to come by.  The O2 documentation, albeit somewhat
inaccurate, is on the other hand readily available.

Re: Linux on O2?

[Marc Esipovich]

> On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 05:14:25PM -0800, brett wrote:
> 
> > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
> > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
> 
> The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
> just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...
> 
>   Ralf
> 

Wow, what do you mean gone by now?  are you saying there's no chance in
hell to obtain the documentation?  it can't be gone.

	Marc.

Re: Linux on O2?

[Harald Koerfgen]

On 19-Feb-00 Ralf Baechle wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 03:32:57PM -0800, William J. Earl wrote:
> 
>> Ralf Baechle writes:
>>  > On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 05:14:25PM -0800, brett wrote:
>>  > 
>>  > > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
>>  > > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
>>  > 
>>  > The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
>>  > just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...
>> 
>>       We might be able to help out with some Indigo R4000 information,
>> if someone is seriously interested, since the Indigo R4000 is close to
>> Indigo2 and Indy.  Indigo R3000 is probably hopeless (that development
>> project was something like 12 years ago, after all).  The graphics is
>> a tougher problem, since all but Newport and Starter (Indigo) graphics
>> have geometry engines with relatively complex interfaces.  
>> 
>>      Ralf is quite right about the IRIX source.  Since it is based
>> on source licensed from SCO, Sun, and others, we do not have the right
>> to hand it out without cost to others.  
> 
> How about if myself and possibly others who currently are under NDA for SGI
> would support such projects by describing things via email where
> neither docs nor uncontaminated source is available and possibly some
> source where it's (C)-clean and managment aproved.  Could something like
> that be made working?  It's a shame that still nobody so far has had an
> actual chance to start working on an O2 port or something like that.

Well, if someone is willing to ship me an O2 I'll see what I can do :-)

---
Regards,
Harald

Re: Linux on O2?

[Brian D. Moffet]

At 01:29 PM 2/19/00 +0100, Harald Koerfgen wrote:

>Well, if someone is willing to ship me an O2 I'll see what I can do :-)

I own an O2, and would be willing to work on a port, once my life gets more
free
time... :-)  Of course I would need to get as much hardware doc as possible,
but my time isn't gonna free up for at least another 6 - 9 months, probably 
longer...

Brian

Brian D. Moffet		www.moffetimages.com
brianm@ricochet.net	photographer, pilot, musician, programmer

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 06:30:22AM -0200, Marc Esipovich wrote:

> > > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
> > > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
> > 
> > The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
> > just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...
> 
> Wow, what do you mean gone by now?  are you saying there's no chance in
> hell to obtain the documentation?  it can't be gone.

Remember that SGI is a company that designs a large fraction of a system.
So the designers of some piece of hardware and it's direct users, the
kernel programmers have close to each other.  For a lot of chips
documentation never is written or at least never the same way so it would
be the case for chips that would be marketed as such.  It's obvious that
this isn't good at all for Free Software where the access to high
quality documentation is crucial.

So now imagine what has happened to all the knowledge about a machine
during the decade after it was developed?  The product's development
finishes, it get's marketed, the OS for gets some final bugfixes and
even later it gets phased out.  Silence.  Meanwhile the brains behind
the machine leave the company, tapes and paper go to some dark room
where nobody still remembers them and the machine gets forgotten.

Slow death of a computer ...

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[Bill Halchin]

This is precisely why I gave up on this project. I could not get any
documentation, no machine access (if you don't already have). In my
opinion, SGI Linux project must address this problem if they want to
attract "outsiders", i.e. people who are currently outside the SGI
user community, but what to contribute to a very interesting (!!)Open
Source project.


Regards,

Bill Halchin


>From: Ralf Baechle <ralf@oss.sgi.com>
>To: Marc Esipovich <marc@mucom.co.il>
>CC: Ralf Baechle <ralf@oss.sgi.com>, brett <brett@madhouse.org>,        
>Bruce Leggett <bleggett@sofamordanek.com>, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com,      
>   linux-mips@fnet.fr, linux-mips@vger.rutgers.edu
>Subject: Re: Linux on O2?
>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:14:45 +0100
>
>On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 06:30:22AM -0200, Marc Esipovich wrote:
>
> > > > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of 
>talk
> > > > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
> > >
> > > The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
> > > just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...
> >
> > Wow, what do you mean gone by now?  are you saying there's no chance in
> > hell to obtain the documentation?  it can't be gone.
>
>Remember that SGI is a company that designs a large fraction of a system.
>So the designers of some piece of hardware and it's direct users, the
>kernel programmers have close to each other.  For a lot of chips
>documentation never is written or at least never the same way so it would
>be the case for chips that would be marketed as such.  It's obvious that
>this isn't good at all for Free Software where the access to high
>quality documentation is crucial.
>
>So now imagine what has happened to all the knowledge about a machine
>during the decade after it was developed?  The product's development
>finishes, it get's marketed, the OS for gets some final bugfixes and
>even later it gets phased out.  Silence.  Meanwhile the brains behind
>the machine leave the company, tapes and paper go to some dark room
>where nobody still remembers them and the machine gets forgotten.
>
>Slow death of a computer ...
>
>   Ralf

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 04:29:01PM -0800, Bill Halchin wrote:

> This is precisely why I gave up on this project. I could not get any
> documentation, no machine access (if you don't already have). In my
> opinion, SGI Linux project must address this problem if they want to
> attract "outsiders", i.e. people who are currently outside the SGI
> user community, but what to contribute to a very interesting (!!)Open
> Source project.

You should consider that that porting Linus to all of SGI's machines is a
pretty unrealistic project so with all optimism I don't think it's going
to happen.

Aside of that, SGI's Linux efforts are primarily about the future, not
the past and that's good so.

(Time to mention that I'm not speaking for SGI ...)

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[Geert Uytterhoeven]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Ralf Baechle wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 06:30:22AM -0200, Marc Esipovich wrote:
> 
> > > > Im still wainting to hear anything about the indigo i hear alot of talk
> > > > about the indigo2 but nothing about the original blue boxes
> > > 
> > > The problem is that the origin docs are gone by now and SGI can't
> > > just go and ship the IRIX source to hackers ...
> > 
> > Wow, what do you mean gone by now?  are you saying there's no chance in
> > hell to obtain the documentation?  it can't be gone.
> 
> Remember that SGI is a company that designs a large fraction of a system.
> So the designers of some piece of hardware and it's direct users, the
> kernel programmers have close to each other.  For a lot of chips
> documentation never is written or at least never the same way so it would
> be the case for chips that would be marketed as such.  It's obvious that
> this isn't good at all for Free Software where the access to high
> quality documentation is crucial.
> 
> So now imagine what has happened to all the knowledge about a machine
> during the decade after it was developed?  The product's development
> finishes, it get's marketed, the OS for gets some final bugfixes and
> even later it gets phased out.  Silence.  Meanwhile the brains behind
> the machine leave the company, tapes and paper go to some dark room
> where nobody still remembers them and the machine gets forgotten.
> 
> Slow death of a computer ...

Unrelated, but similar: I'd like to port Linux/m68k to the Tektronix XP21
X-terminal I have. It has a 68030, TMS34020 and NE2000 Ethernet, but where do
you find docs? Tektronix has sold their X-terminal division to NCD.

If a machine is older than the web, AltaVista won't help you neither.

Gr{oetje,eeting}s,

						Geert

--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- Linux/{m68k~Amiga,PPC~CHRP} -- geert@linux-m68k.org

In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
							    -- Linus Torvalds

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 08:11:19PM +0100, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:

> Unrelated, but similar: I'd like to port Linux/m68k to the Tektronix XP21
> X-terminal I have. It has a 68030, TMS34020 and NE2000 Ethernet, but where do
> you find docs? Tektronix has sold their X-terminal division to NCD.
> 
> If a machine is older than the web, AltaVista won't help you neither.

>From time to time I get email from people with ancient 68k-based SGIs
asking for Linux ...

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 08:11:19PM +0100, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:

> Unrelated, but similar: I'd like to port Linux/m68k to the Tektronix XP21
> X-terminal I have. It has a 68030, TMS34020 and NE2000 Ethernet, but where do
> you find docs? Tektronix has sold their X-terminal division to NCD.
> 
> If a machine is older than the web, AltaVista won't help you neither.

From time to time I get email from people with ancient 68k-based SGIs
asking for Linux ...

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[Richard]

Ralf Baechle wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 08:11:19PM +0100, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
>
> > Unrelated, but similar: I'd like to port Linux/m68k to the Tektronix XP21
> > X-terminal I have. It has a 68030, TMS34020 and NE2000 Ethernet, but where do
> > you find docs? Tektronix has sold their X-terminal division to NCD.
> >
> > If a machine is older than the web, AltaVista won't help you neither.
>
> >From time to time I get email from people with ancient 68k-based SGIs
> asking for Linux ...
>

I've still got an iris 3030 which is an 68k based SGI.

geert: It's even located in belgium :)

Richard

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 11:32:13PM +0100, Richard wrote:

> > > Unrelated, but similar: I'd like to port Linux/m68k to the Tektronix XP21
> > > X-terminal I have. It has a 68030, TMS34020 and NE2000 Ethernet, but where do
> > > you find docs? Tektronix has sold their X-terminal division to NCD.
> > >
> > > If a machine is older than the web, AltaVista won't help you neither.
> >
> > >From time to time I get email from people with ancient 68k-based SGIs
> > asking for Linux ...
> 
> I've still got an iris 3030 which is an 68k based SGI.
> 
> geert: It's even located in belgium :)

That was a failure.  Somebody will ring your door bell tonight :-)

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[Richard]

Ralf Baechle wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 11:32:13PM +0100, Richard wrote:
>
> > > > Unrelated, but similar: I'd like to port Linux/m68k to the Tektronix XP21
> > > > X-terminal I have. It has a 68030, TMS34020 and NE2000 Ethernet, but where do
> > > > you find docs? Tektronix has sold their X-terminal division to NCD.
> > > >
> > > > If a machine is older than the web, AltaVista won't help you neither.
> > >
> > > >From time to time I get email from people with ancient 68k-based SGIs
> > > asking for Linux ...
> >
> > I've still got an iris 3030 which is an 68k based SGI.
> >
> > geert: It's even located in belgium :)
>
> That was a failure.  Somebody will ring your door bell tonight :-)
>

I'd be delighted :)

Re: Linux on O2?

[Bastiaan.N.Veelo]

I subscribed to this list a minute ago because I am a Linux enthousiast
and can get hold of used O2's for little money. I just read the mail
archive for this month and was happy to see that although Linux for O2 is
not there yet, there is a lot of talk about it.

A newbie-question: how different is an O2 with R5000 processor from an
Indy? Maybe graphics is different, but can't the Linux Indy port be made
to run on an O2 of this sort at all?

Harald Koerfgen wrote:
> Well, if someone is willing to ship me an O2 I'll see what I can do :-)

The O2's I can get hold of, if I am well informed, come with an R5000
processor, 128MB RAM, 2GB SCSI, soundcard, keyboard and 21" Monitor for
5000 NOK (that's about 1250 DEM or 625 USD!). Though I live in Norway I
visit Germany from time to time and transport is therefore a lesser
problem.


Bastiaan.

Re: Linux on O2?

[James Simmons]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 Bastiaan.N.Veelo@immtek.ntnu.no wrote:

> I subscribed to this list a minute ago because I am a Linux enthousiast
> and can get hold of used O2's for little money. I just read the mail
> archive for this month and was happy to see that although Linux for O2 is
> not there yet, there is a lot of talk about it.
> 
> A newbie-question: how different is an O2 with R5000 processor from an
> Indy? Maybe graphics is different, but can't the Linux Indy port be made
> to run on an O2 of this sort at all?
> 
> Harald Koerfgen wrote:
> > Well, if someone is willing to ship me an O2 I'll see what I can do :-)
> 
> The O2's I can get hold of, if I am well informed, come with an R5000
> processor, 128MB RAM, 2GB SCSI, soundcard, keyboard and 21" Monitor for
> 5000 NOK (that's about 1250 DEM or 625 USD!). Though I live in Norway I
> visit Germany from time to time and transport is therefore a lesser
> problem.

WoW!!! Can I get one for this price? 

Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am"
James Simmons                                                      (o_
fbdev/gfx developer                                      (o_  (o_ //\
http://www.linux-fbdev.org                              (/)_ (/)_ V_/_
http://linuxgfx.sourceforge.net

Re: Linux on O2?

[jallan]

You wrote:

> From: James Simmons 

> > The O2's I can get hold of, if I am well informed, come with an R5000
> > processor, 128MB RAM, 2GB SCSI, soundcard, keyboard and 21" Monitor for
> > 5000 NOK (that's about 1250 DEM or 625 USD!). Though I live in Norway I
> > visit Germany from time to time and transport is therefore a lesser
> > problem.
> 
> WoW!!! Can I get one for this price? 


Make that wow from me too! I am interested as well!

Did I miss the original repy to my inquiry about Linux on an O2 though?

Thanks.

John Allan

Re: Linux on O2?

[jallan]

You wrote:

> From: James Simmons 

> > The O2's I can get hold of, if I am well informed, come with an R5000
> > processor, 128MB RAM, 2GB SCSI, soundcard, keyboard and 21" Monitor for
> > 5000 NOK (that's about 1250 DEM or 625 USD!). Though I live in Norway I
> > visit Germany from time to time and transport is therefore a lesser
> > problem.
> 
> WoW!!! Can I get one for this price? 


Make that wow from me too! I am interested as well!

Did I miss the original repy to my inquiry about Linux on an O2 though?

Thanks.

John Allan

Re: Linux on O2?

[Ralf Baechle]

On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 07:05:15PM -0800, Bastiaan.N.Veelo@immtek.ntnu.no wrote:

> A newbie-question: how different is an O2 with R5000 processor from an
> Indy? Maybe graphics is different, but can't the Linux Indy port be made
> to run on an O2 of this sort at all?

It's very different but the port should yet be reasonably easy.

  Ralf

Re: Linux on O2?

[Richard]

jallan@freeuk.com wrote:

> You wrote:
>
> > From: James Simmons
>
> > > The O2's I can get hold of, if I am well informed, come with an R5000
> > > processor, 128MB RAM, 2GB SCSI, soundcard, keyboard and 21" Monitor for
> > > 5000 NOK (that's about 1250 DEM or 625 USD!). Though I live in Norway I
> > > visit Germany from time to time and transport is therefore a lesser
> > > problem.
> >
> > WoW!!! Can I get one for this price?
>
> Make that wow from me too! I am interested as well!
>
> Did I miss the original repy to my inquiry about Linux on an O2 though?
>

Me three !

Richard

Re: Linux on O2?

[James A Simmons]

This got out of hand. I was only kidding. I didn't think anyone would take
that serious. 

Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am"
James Simmons                                                      (o_
fbdev/gfx developer                                      (o_  (o_ //\
http://www.linux-fbdev.org                              (/)_ (/)_ V_/_
http://linuxgfx.sourceforge.net

On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Richard wrote:

> jallan@freeuk.com wrote:
> 
> > You wrote:
> >
> > > From: James Simmons
> >
> > > > The O2's I can get hold of, if I am well informed, come with an R5000
> > > > processor, 128MB RAM, 2GB SCSI, soundcard, keyboard and 21" Monitor for
> > > > 5000 NOK (that's about 1250 DEM or 625 USD!). Though I live in Norway I
> > > > visit Germany from time to time and transport is therefore a lesser
> > > > problem.
> > >
> > > WoW!!! Can I get one for this price?
> >
> > Make that wow from me too! I am interested as well!
> >
> > Did I miss the original repy to my inquiry about Linux on an O2 though?
> >
> 
> Me three !
> 
> Richard
> 
>