Re: which distribution to use?

Re: which distribution to use?

[geoff]

Is anyone able to compare (say) Slackware Linux with any other UNIX clones
such as FreeBSD ?

From a learning point of view, I guess it depends on what it is that you
wish to learn.

Best regards.

Geoff Bagley
G3FHL


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Re: which distribution to use?

[David Benfell]

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On Tue, 28 May 2002 16:10:50 +0100, geoff wrote:
> Is anyone able to compare (say) Slackware Linux with any other UNIX clones
> such as FreeBSD ?
> 
> From a learning point of view, I guess it depends on what it is that you
> wish to learn.
> 
Comparing BSDs with Linux is a little difficult to do objectively.
All claim to be powerful, reliable, and secure.  And all are,
certainly relative to Windows.

The choice of an operating system depends heavily on what you actually
plan to do with that operating system.  Few operating systems are set
up "for learning."

For servers and routers, I choose OpenBSD.  For desktop systems, I
choose Linux.

I've been told that FreeBSD is a great server system, but not so great
for desktop use.  This apparently defies the experience of some people
I know, one of whom uses FreeBSD on his laptop.  And if I were in the
position of having to support a large number of desktops, I would take
a hard look at FreeBSD simply because I prefer its flavor of package
management.

My impression is that of the BSDs, FreeBSD has the most going for it
in the way of driver development for odd hardware.  I'm guessing that
Linux is still ahead here, though, due both to manufacturer support
and the sheer number of people working on it.

I'm presently writing this on a laptop which doesn't support Linux
well.  Am I worried?  No.  I figure Linux will catch up with it in
fairly short order.  (Even if it doesn't, it works well enough for my
purposes.)  Would I be so confident with a BSD?  No, even though
FreeBSD probably would work as well on it as Linux does now.

Similarly, I suspect that most of the people doing development for
desktop applications (and probably a bunch of other software) are
using Linux platforms.  The stuff should generally still build under
the BSDs; sometimes you might have to use gmake (GNU make), and
I guess there will be instances where the porting just won't work.

I haven't mentioned NetBSD.  I haven't played with it at all, nor do I
know anyone who has.  Its main claim to fame seems to be in the
diversity of platforms it will run on.  They really work on this.

So you see, the choice of operating system has little do do with a
"learning experience."  It has much more to do with how each meshes
with your needs (for each given system) and style of operation.

-- 
David Benfell, LCP
benfell@parts-unknown.org
---
Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html

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Re: which UNIX to use (was: Re: which distribution to use?)

[Raider]

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Well... keep it simple: BSD is on the traditional side of Unix. 
Linux... is on the "cool" side.

The kernel, which has nothing to do with the home user and rather with
the server admin, is better.  But Linux is catching on.

The driver database and the app list, which has everything to do with
the end user, as the server admin will probably use a handfull of tools,
and some home-made scripts, shows Linux is winning.

So here you have both advantages and disatvantages of the "coolness" of
Linux.  More apps, easier to use, but louzier code, less optimisation...

In the end, it isn't that important what OS to use.  As Unix has won the
war by far and any single noticeable OS nowadays has a (more or less)
POSIX kernel.

From what I recall the issue here was which Linux distribution to use. 
Not BSD.. or any Unix flavour.  So the originator of this alternative
"thread" should have labeled the message differently.  So, geoff,
remember next time to keep the subject in concordance with the
contents.  This is no "spanking".  But rather a nice way to tell you
that your message would have been deleted by default, just in this case
I checked the mail.  Me, and I'm not the only one, I read or delete the
mail based on the subject and don't bother to read more.  After all this
is WHY the subject line exists.

Back to UNIX, OpenBSD is certainly a NO.  I know people who are good on
Linux and get lost with some admin tasks on any BSD.  OpenBSD has that
particular charateristic of being "safe".  And safety goes as the main
purpose.  And real life shows that it's all just a long line with one
extreme being labeled as "safe" and the other as "friendly".  Now, no OS
has even got to extreme.  But as Linux lies somewhere in the middle of
the line and Win95 somewhere on the "friendly" side... quite on the
extreme (although it isn't that friendly either ;-) OpenBSD goes to
about the same lenght in the opposite direction.  Later on you'll see
that newer MDK and RH offer you at install time a "security level" which
means how they set up permissions on various files.  Lowest level is
more or less equal a windoze's usability... and about the same safety. 
Highest level makes things really hard for the "regular" user.  Bottom
line - OpenBSD doesn't even bother with the usability.

	NetBSD has about the same problem as OpenBSD.  Its purpose isn't
friendliness or teaching somebody to do anything.  Its purpose is
portability.  And AFAIK, they are the most portable as working on most
architectures.

	FreeBSD is the only BSD that comes anywhere closer to Linux.  This is
why it is friendlier, and this is why it is the most popular, known and
tested BSD flavour to my knowledge (lately I mean).

	Now, this is a big problem - making a real comparison.  It is like
comparing apples and oranges.  Of course, they are fruits... and round. 
But things end up about here.  The originator should ask about Linux vs
*BSD.  As different Linux distributions are only that - different
distributions of the same system.  In some cases the differences are
even smaller than say Windows with Netscape explorer versus Windows
(same kernel) with Outlook and IE.

	Back to the main issue - if you are taking into consideration examining
a BSD system... FreeBSD is the only choice.  If you need any of the
others - you won't have that dillema.

	FreeBSD and Linux are coming closer every month.  FreeBSD has some
packs to make it able to run Linux binary, and Linux has a fair
knowledge about BSD, enough to see it's partitions and things like
that.  Go for FreeBSD in case you have lots of spare time and - most
important - a real computer, no WinAnything.  First example that comes
into my mind - if you have a hardware modem you will be able to use it
with FreeBSD without any problem.  If you have a software modem, your
only chance is with Linux.

	As for Linux... I use MDK and it gives me an WinXP experience ;-) on a
k6-2@300Mhz.  Lots of graphics, lot of coolness.

	I won't go into any more details as a holy war debate is the last thing
I want.

On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 07:39, David Benfell wrote:
> On Tue, 28 May 2002 16:10:50 +0100, geoff wrote:
> > Is anyone able to compare (say) Slackware Linux with any other UNIX clones
> > such as FreeBSD ?
> > 
> > From a learning point of view, I guess it depends on what it is that you
> > wish to learn.
> > 
> Comparing BSDs with Linux is a little difficult to do objectively.
> All claim to be powerful, reliable, and secure.  And all are,
> certainly relative to Windows.
> 
> The choice of an operating system depends heavily on what you actually
> plan to do with that operating system.  Few operating systems are set
> up "for learning."
> 
> For servers and routers, I choose OpenBSD.  For desktop systems, I
> choose Linux.
> 
> I've been told that FreeBSD is a great server system, but not so great
> for desktop use.  This apparently defies the experience of some people
> I know, one of whom uses FreeBSD on his laptop.  And if I were in the
> position of having to support a large number of desktops, I would take
> a hard look at FreeBSD simply because I prefer its flavor of package
> management.
> 
> My impression is that of the BSDs, FreeBSD has the most going for it
> in the way of driver development for odd hardware.  I'm guessing that
> Linux is still ahead here, though, due both to manufacturer support
> and the sheer number of people working on it.
> 
> I'm presently writing this on a laptop which doesn't support Linux
> well.  Am I worried?  No.  I figure Linux will catch up with it in
> fairly short order.  (Even if it doesn't, it works well enough for my
> purposes.)  Would I be so confident with a BSD?  No, even though
> FreeBSD probably would work as well on it as Linux does now.
> 
> Similarly, I suspect that most of the people doing development for
> desktop applications (and probably a bunch of other software) are
> using Linux platforms.  The stuff should generally still build under
> the BSDs; sometimes you might have to use gmake (GNU make), and
> I guess there will be instances where the porting just won't work.
> 
> I haven't mentioned NetBSD.  I haven't played with it at all, nor do I
> know anyone who has.  Its main claim to fame seems to be in the
> diversity of platforms it will run on.  They really work on this.
> 
> So you see, the choice of operating system has little do do with a
> "learning experience."  It has much more to do with how each meshes
> with your needs (for each given system) and style of operation.
> 
> -- 
> David Benfell, LCP
> benfell@parts-unknown.org
> ---
> Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html


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Re: which UNIX to use (was: Re: which distribution to use?)

[David Benfell]

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This, being a Linux list, is a horrible place to get into this
discussion...

On Thu, 30 May 2002 00:59:15 +0300, Raider wrote:

> Bottom
> line - OpenBSD doesn't even bother with the usability.
> 
In what sense are you referring to usability?

Where I've never been able to make sense of Linux's packet filtering,
it took me about 15 minutes to configure it on an OpenBSD system.
From my perspective, OpenBSD's model of packet filtering is much more
in line with how packet filtering is actually used and what it's
actually needed for.  It seems to me a lot simpler.  For me, this is a
major win.

I'm no Linux networking guru but I've found OpenBSD's networking
configuration relatively easy to sort out.  The ifconfig and route
commands are different, but similar enough to what you'll find on
Linux that I doubt these would be a serious problem.  (Look at the man
pages and, really, you'll figure it out.)

OpenBSD (and I think the other BSDs) use a different device naming
convention so, for example, where Linux calls most high bandwidth
interfaces ethn (where n is a unit number), you'll find a variety of
names under OpenBSD for the same devices.  This is a little harder,
but I found it surprisingly straight-forward.

OpenBSD doesn't use the shadow suite for password management; instead,
it keeps the real passwords in /etc/master.passwd, along with some
other crucial information.  That's simply different, not really
harder.  (FreeBSD, by the way, does something similar.)

One of the first things I have to do to a new OpenBSD system is to
install zsh.  OpenBSD (and I think all BSDs) come with a real sh,
not bash, which is really crude.  I'm really gritting my teeth until I
manage to get through this, so I'll acknowledge that this is
definitely harder.  The solution, for me, is to understand that
installing a shell that I can live with is a top priority, higher than
working on what the system is actually going to be used for.

Another thing I have to do early on is to install vim.  That's not
because I can't use vi.  It's because I'm in the habit of typing vim.

Installing qmail is a bit harder; Dave Sill's Life with Qmail doesn't
cover OpenBSD and there are a couple places where you need to figure
out the OpenBSD-equivalent procedures for what he's telling you to do.
It's not bad enough that I've felt compelled to write Dave offering
suggestions on how he could better cover OpenBSD, though I probably
should, since he's generally done a fine job trying to take the
guesswork out of installing qmail.

I just recently upgraded an OpenBSD 3.0 installation to OpenBSD 3.1.
This was truly painless.  The only thing I had to fix was the symbolic
link for qmail's sendmail wrapper -- which I knew I'd have to do.  It
was also fast.  I was probably through it in about 15 minutes.
(Initial installations are also very fast.)

There are a few things like the examples I mention above.  Some things
are harder.  Some things, I think, are easier.  But a statement that
OpenBSD doesn't even bother with usability really seems to miss the
mark.

For me, it still comes back to how I ended my previous posting.  The
choice of operating system depends on how each meshes with how you're
going to use each system and with your own operating style.

-- 
David Benfell, LCP
benfell@parts-unknown.org
---
Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Matthew Stapleton]

Incidentally I think I am going to go with Slackware.  I have used it
before and liked it a lot.

Matthew
On Sun, 26 May 2002 11:41:00 +0000 Richard Adams <pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl>
writes:
> On Sunday 26 May 2002 09:58, Jose Luis Alarcon wrote:
> > --- Richard Adams <pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl> wrote:
> > >On Friday 24 May 2002 21:40, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> > >> Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a 
> more Unix
> > >> type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or 
> Slackware?
> > >> I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just 
> point and
> > >> click.
> > >
> > >Slackware
> >
> >   Debian. ;-).
> 
> I stand by my statement, if one wants to learn how linux works, use 
> 
> slackware, its the only system that allows you to install what "you" 
> want and 
> not what the system wants, try that with all other distro's.
> 
> Try installing debian, redhat, mandrake, suse on a system with low 
> memory.
> Slackware can be installed on an old machine with 8MB, others cant.
> Slackware is operator dependant, that means configure things like X 
> yourself 
> if you want too, most all other distro's do it for you, so you see 
> with those 
> other distro's you "dont" learn linux as good as you do when one 
> uses 
> Slackware period.
> 
> >
> >   Best Regards.
> >
> >   Jose.
> 
> -- 
> Regards Richard
> pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
> http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
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> 


Matthew Stapleton
...........
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Re: which distribution to use?

[Jose Luis Alarcon]

--- Richard Adams <pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl> wrote:
>On Sunday 26 May 2002 09:58, Jose Luis Alarcon wrote:
>> --- Richard Adams <pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl> wrote:
>> >On Friday 24 May 2002 21:40, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
>> >> Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
>> >> type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware?
>> >> I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
>> >> click.
>> >
>> >Slackware
>>
>>   Debian. ;-).
>
>I stand by my statement, if one wants to learn how linux works, use 
>slackware, its the only system that allows you to install what "you" want and 
>not what the system wants, try that with all other distro's.
>
>Try installing debian, redhat, mandrake, suse on a system with low memory.
>Slackware can be installed on an old machine with 8MB, others cant.
>Slackware is operator dependant, that means configure things like X yourself 
>if you want too, most all other distro's do it for you, so you see with those 
>other distro's you "dont" learn linux as good as you do when one uses 
>Slackware period.
>

  Hi Richard.

  I think i understand what you say about "what you want and 
not what the system wants". Now i'm in a case with my Mandrake:
i like experimenting with the unestable kernels, and i was trying
install 2.5.17 kernel.

  But the matter is that Mandrake have enabled by default the DevFS
feature and the 2.5 serie have still a lot of problems with DevFS.

  Now i'm in a crossway. If i disable DevFS i loose many Mandrake
services that depends of it. Or i can choose not probe yet the 2.5
kernels serie, until DevFS gets work fine.

  This happens, in my opinion, cos the system is very "rigid" and
there are few "true" possibilitys of personalize it.

  Maybe one day, in the future, i will take the decision of try
Slackware, who knows. :-).

  Regards.

  Jose.  

Debian GNU/Linux 'Sid' Kernel 2.4.17 Ext3.
Mandrake Linux 8.2 Kernel 2.4.17 ReiserFS.
Registered Linux User #213309.
Memories..... You are talking about memories. 
Rick Deckard. Blade Runner.

_____________________________________________________________
Linux for the Desktop
Software, Setup, chat & email.
http://www.linuxnobis.com

_____________________________________________________________
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Re: which distribution to use?

[Chuck Gelm]

<snip>
> install 2.5.17 kernel.
<snip> 

IMHO, 2.5.x kernels should not be discussed in linux-newbie.
:-|
Chuck
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Re: which distribution to use?

[Richard Adams]

On Monday 27 May 2002 13:34, Chuck Gelm wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > install 2.5.17 kernel.
>
> <snip>
>
> IMHO, 2.5.x kernels should not be discussed in linux-newbie.

How correct you are in your humble opinion Chuck.

>
> :-|
>
> Chuck

-- 
Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Jose Luis Alarcon]

--- Richard Adams <pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl> wrote:
>On Friday 24 May 2002 21:40, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
>> Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
>> type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware?
>> I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
>> click.
>
>Slackware
>

  Debian. ;-).

  Best Regards.

  Jose.

>-- 
>Regards Richard
>pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
>http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/
>

Debian GNU/Linux 'Sid' Kernel 2.4.17 Ext3.
Mandrake Linux 8.2 Kernel 2.4.17 ReiserFS.
Registered Linux User #213309.
Memories..... You are talking about memories. 
Rick Deckard. Blade Runner.

_____________________________________________________________
Linux for the Desktop
Software, Setup, chat & email.
http://www.linuxnobis.com

_____________________________________________________________
Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net  http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag
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Re: which distribution to use?

[Richard Adams]

On Sunday 26 May 2002 09:58, Jose Luis Alarcon wrote:
> --- Richard Adams <pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl> wrote:
> >On Friday 24 May 2002 21:40, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> >> Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
> >> type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware?
> >> I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
> >> click.
> >
> >Slackware
>
>   Debian. ;-).

I stand by my statement, if one wants to learn how linux works, use 
slackware, its the only system that allows you to install what "you" want and 
not what the system wants, try that with all other distro's.

Try installing debian, redhat, mandrake, suse on a system with low memory.
Slackware can be installed on an old machine with 8MB, others cant.
Slackware is operator dependant, that means configure things like X yourself 
if you want too, most all other distro's do it for you, so you see with those 
other distro's you "dont" learn linux as good as you do when one uses 
Slackware period.

>
>   Best Regards.
>
>   Jose.

-- 
Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Benny Pedersen]

Originally to: Richard Adams

Hi Richard Adams

you wrote about "which distribution to use?":


 RA> Try installing debian, redhat, mandrake, suse on a system with
 RA> low memory. Slackware can be installed on an old machine with
 RA> 8MB, others cant. Slackware is operator dependant, that means
 RA> configure things like X yourself if you want too, most all other
 RA> distro's do it for you, so you see with those other distro's you
 RA> "dont" learn linux as good as you do when one uses Slackware
 RA> period.

well redhat can run on 8mb period !

but you are right on the slackware, newer tryed it, do i need it ?

how manu do use pc with only 8mb now a days ?

well i have a 386 with just 4mb notebook :)

it runs linux hehe 

it was the only os thats runs with the build in netcard, it has build
in modem 2, so its very powerfull, win3.11 have no suport for this,
win95 is to big for it, i go for linux :)


 Benny Pedersen  http://xpoint.ldnet.dk/  icq:36248146


...Nobody really knows what is going on anywhere in your organization.

<-> Gateway Information.
This message originated from a Fidonet System (http://www.fidonet.org)
and was gated at TCOB1 (http://www.tcob1.net)
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Re: which distribution to use?

[Cor Lem]

At 14:40 24-5-02 -0700, you wrote:
>Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
>type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware?
>I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
>click.

Then this may be a good starting point:
http://linuxfromscratch.org/

It describes how to build your own.

Greetz,
Cor Lem

>On Fri, 24 May 2002 12:41:34 -0600 (MDT) <omland@minotaur.colorado.edu>
>writes:
> > Well as a UNIX/linux systems admin. I am forced to work with just
> > about
> > every possible distribution out there, so I'll throw out a couple
> > ideas. My first two suggestions would be for Red Hat or Mandrake.
> > These
> > distro's are almost to the point were'd I give them to my mom and
> > tell her
> > she could use them! =0). The RPM system makes updates and installs
> > so
> > easy, and these seem to be the most popular, and therefore you are
> > more
> > likely to find people with the same problems. However they are a
> > bit
> > "windows" like if you use gnome or KDE. I don't have any exp. with
> > SuSe,
> > come to think of it I probally should try that! Hope this helps.
> > -Chris
> >
> > On Fri, 24 May 2002, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I have tried several of the major distributions on my PC over the
> > years.
> > > But I am by no means an expert at using UNIX/Linux.  I want some
> > advice
> > > on the pros and cons of the various distributions.  Possibly any
> > replies
> > > to this could be aimed at Redhat, Slackware, Debian, SUSE,
> > Mandrake etc
> > > as many of the others are based on these.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
> > > Matthew Stapleton
> > > ...........



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Re: which distribution to use?

[Matthew Stapleton]

Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware? 
I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
click.


On Fri, 24 May 2002 12:41:34 -0600 (MDT) <omland@minotaur.colorado.edu>
writes:
> Well as a UNIX/linux systems admin. I am forced to work with just 
> about
> every possible distribution out there, so I'll throw out a couple
> ideas. My first two suggestions would be for Red Hat or Mandrake. 
> These
> distro's are almost to the point were'd I give them to my mom and 
> tell her
> she could use them! =0). The RPM system makes updates and installs 
> so
> easy, and these seem to be the most popular, and therefore you are 
> more
> likely to find people with the same problems. However they are a 
> bit
> "windows" like if you use gnome or KDE. I don't have any exp. with 
> SuSe,
> come to think of it I probally should try that! Hope this helps.
> -Chris
> 
> On Fri, 24 May 2002, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I have tried several of the major distributions on my PC over the 
> years. 
> > But I am by no means an expert at using UNIX/Linux.  I want some 
> advice
> > on the pros and cons of the various distributions.  Possibly any 
> replies
> > to this could be aimed at Redhat, Slackware, Debian, SUSE, 
> Mandrake etc
> > as many of the others are based on these.  
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > 
> > Matthew Stapleton
> > ...........
> >  
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
> linux-newbie" in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  
> http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs
> > 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
> linux-newbie" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
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> Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs
> 


Matthew Stapleton
...........
God would have us know that we must live as men who manage our lives
without him.The God who is with us is the God who forsakes us.The God who
lets us live in the world without the working hypothesis of God is the
God before whom we stand continually.Before God and with God we live
without God. God lets himself be pushed out of the world onto the cross.
--Bonhoeffer
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Re: which distribution to use?

[omland]

I understand what your saying, I'm the exact same way, as I'm still new to
the whole admin thing. Red Hat and Mandrake still offer this. When I
referred to the "windows" like env. I was talking about the window
managers. And RH and Mandrake come with many different window managers,
gnome, kde, ect... The thing is these are just a x windows system. You
still have full access to the entire linux/unix platform through your
terminals, and you dont even need to use the window managers if you dont
want to. You can simply use the shell. The "windows" type system is just
an application running. Its not like MS WINDOWS were it is actually the
whole operating system(I know you can get a dos prompt..but come on! =0) )
Does this help?
-Chris

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Matthew Stapleton wrote:

> Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
> type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware? 
> I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
> click.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 24 May 2002 12:41:34 -0600 (MDT) <omland@minotaur.colorado.edu>
> writes:
> > Well as a UNIX/linux systems admin. I am forced to work with just 
> > about
> > every possible distribution out there, so I'll throw out a couple
> > ideas. My first two suggestions would be for Red Hat or Mandrake. 
> > These
> > distro's are almost to the point were'd I give them to my mom and 
> > tell her
> > she could use them! =0). The RPM system makes updates and installs 
> > so
> > easy, and these seem to be the most popular, and therefore you are 
> > more
> > likely to find people with the same problems. However they are a 
> > bit
> > "windows" like if you use gnome or KDE. I don't have any exp. with 
> > SuSe,
> > come to think of it I probally should try that! Hope this helps.
> > -Chris
> > 
> > On Fri, 24 May 2002, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > I have tried several of the major distributions on my PC over the 
> > years. 
> > > But I am by no means an expert at using UNIX/Linux.  I want some 
> > advice
> > > on the pros and cons of the various distributions.  Possibly any 
> > replies
> > > to this could be aimed at Redhat, Slackware, Debian, SUSE, 
> > Mandrake etc
> > > as many of the others are based on these.  
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Matthew Stapleton
> > > ...........
> > >  
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
> > linux-newbie" in
> > > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > > More majordomo info at  
> > http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > > Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs
> > > 
> > 
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
> > linux-newbie" in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs
> > 
> 
> 
> Matthew Stapleton
> ...........
> God would have us know that we must live as men who manage our lives
> without him.The God who is with us is the God who forsakes us.The God who
> lets us live in the world without the working hypothesis of God is the
> God before whom we stand continually.Before God and with God we live
> without God. God lets himself be pushed out of the world onto the cross.
> --Bonhoeffer
> 

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Chuck Gelm]

Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> 
> Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
> type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware?
> I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Get Slackware.
HTH, Chuck
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Re: which distribution to use?

[Richard Adams]

On Friday 24 May 2002 21:40, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> Say someone, like myself, did not like windows and wanted a more Unix
> type experience or environment.  Would you suggest Debian or Slackware?
> I actually want to try to learn about the system and not just point and
> click.

Slackware

-- 
Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

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which distribution to use?

[Matthew Stapleton]

Hello,

I have tried several of the major distributions on my PC over the years. 
But I am by no means an expert at using UNIX/Linux.  I want some advice
on the pros and cons of the various distributions.  Possibly any replies
to this could be aimed at Redhat, Slackware, Debian, SUSE, Mandrake etc
as many of the others are based on these.  

Thanks,


Matthew Stapleton
...........
 
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Re: which distribution to use?

[omland]

Well as a UNIX/linux systems admin. I am forced to work with just about
every possible distribution out there, so I'll throw out a couple
ideas. My first two suggestions would be for Red Hat or Mandrake. These
distro's are almost to the point were'd I give them to my mom and tell her
she could use them! =0). The RPM system makes updates and installs so
easy, and these seem to be the most popular, and therefore you are more
likely to find people with the same problems. However they are a bit
"windows" like if you use gnome or KDE. I don't have any exp. with SuSe,
come to think of it I probally should try that! Hope this helps.
-Chris

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Matthew Stapleton wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I have tried several of the major distributions on my PC over the years. 
> But I am by no means an expert at using UNIX/Linux.  I want some advice
> on the pros and cons of the various distributions.  Possibly any replies
> to this could be aimed at Redhat, Slackware, Debian, SUSE, Mandrake etc
> as many of the others are based on these.  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Matthew Stapleton
> ...........
>  
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-newbie" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at http://www.linux-learn.org/faqs
> 

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Brett Allen]

Matt,
	I have been a system admin for 9+ years now but that has been in an NT 
environment.  Although I do have one Linux server at work, it has a very 
small task.  My work has not embraced Linux at all although over the last two 
years I find most of the "Major" new systems from the Corp. office being done 
on Solaris.  
	That said, I use Linux when I get home.  I use it to learn and have a 
refreshing change. I have been 'messing" with Linux for 3 or 4 years but I 
started using it last year as my only system for internet at home because of 
a virus problem on my Windows box and find it a joy.  I have installed all 
the major distro's but someware down the road I found I liked SuSE and have 
stayed with it.  Maybe it was because I broke a few things and with Lawson's 
help and others here on the list I got a few things fixed and learned a few 
of the extra tools SuSE gives you (each distro has there own it seems).  
	I guess what I am trying to say is that I have found that I really have 
little interest of late to get into the guts of Linux.  Did at one time, but 
that has faded.  What I really want is to come home and do a little surfing 
and read my email and keep track of a news group or two.  I fix stuff all day 
at work and just like to relax when I get home.  Other than do a online 
update once in a while or maybe the Version 8.0 upgrade at the first of this 
week, all I have had to do with this distro is enjoy.

	Your interest and mileage my vary....

Brett 
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Re: which distribution to use?

[David Benfell]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2153 bytes --]

On Fri, 24 May 2002 13:00:27 -0700, Matthew Stapleton wrote:
> 
> I have tried several of the major distributions on my PC over the years. 
> But I am by no means an expert at using UNIX/Linux.  I want some advice
> on the pros and cons of the various distributions.  Possibly any replies
> to this could be aimed at Redhat, Slackware, Debian, SUSE, Mandrake etc
> as many of the others are based on these.  
> 
I landed on SuSE and really haven't been satisfied with the other
distributions I've occasionally had to deal with.  I have found it far
and away the most stable, well put together distribution out there.

Red Hat, TurboLinux, and Caldera are really buggy.

My experience with Slackware was that it was simply too primitive.  It
probably has improved since, but when I tried it, you had to build too
much software to get the system into a usable state.  Some of the
required builds had booby traps that made it even more difficult.  I
never did get Netscape running on that version.

Does Slackware use glibc yet?

Debian's package management system (and philosophy) make it a winner
for many.  However, I feel that every argument you can come up with in
favor of Debian's package management is better answered with the
FreeBSD ports collection.  Debian's installation is notoriously
difficult.  Even Debian stable isn't reliable enough for my taste.

In a subsequent post, you say you want to learn the nuts and bolts.
This is good, but is really not dependent on the distribution you
choose.  Most distributions install with a default to come up in GUI
mode, but you can modify /etc/inittab, changing the default run level
to come up in text mode.  You can then use the startx command to bring
up X whenever you need the GUI.

The final argument for SuSE, I believe, is that of all the major
distributions, SuSE comes closest to the File Hierarchy Standard.  All
the distributions are moving in that direction, so for learning
purposes, SuSE may offer you a bit of a head start.

-- 
David Benfell, LCP
benfell@parts-unknown.org
---
Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 481 bytes --]

Re: which distribution to use?

[Richard Adams]

On Tuesday 28 May 2002 02:27, David Benfell wrote:

> Red Hat, TurboLinux, and Caldera are really buggy.

I certanly would not say that of redhat.

>
> My experience with Slackware was that it was simply too primitive.  It
> probably has improved since, but when I tried it, you had to build too
> much software to get the system into a usable state.  Some of the
> required builds had booby traps that made it even more difficult.  I
> never did get Netscape running on that version.

Slackware is NOT primative, its the nearest to "unix" one can get which is 
why it may seem primative to you.

>
> Does Slackware use glibc yet?

Yes.

> In a subsequent post, you say you want to learn the nuts and bolts.
> This is good, but is really not dependent on the distribution you
> choose.  Most distributions install with a default to come up in GUI
> mode, but you can modify /etc/inittab, changing the default run level
> to come up in text mode.  You can then use the startx command to bring
> up X whenever you need the GUI.

Looks like you have never "installed" slackware yourself as there is one big 
differance, you start learning with the install of slackware, where as you 
dont with most others.

>
> The final argument for SuSE, I believe, is that of all the major
> distributions, SuSE comes closest to the File Hierarchy Standard.  All
> the distributions are moving in that direction, so for learning
> purposes, SuSE may offer you a bit of a head start.

Which is what makes "once again" slackware uniq.

I have said all of this many times here on this list, i have most distro's 
running on different systems here and at my workplace, from what i have seen 
here when the question is asked, which distro's is the best to learn linux, 
slackware pops up.

And BTW: 8.1 is out i see from www.slackware.com

-- 
Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Ray Olszewski]

I usually ignore these threads, but this one is starting to get an 
unpleasant tone, so let me try to encourage the proponents of the various 
distros to moderate their insistance before we get to a flame war.

For the record, I like Debian. It is also, by now, the only full-size 
distro I feel totally familiar with. Were I to install Slackware, or Red 
Hat, or Mandrake, or SuSE, I feel sure I would encounter some of the same 
unpleasantness that an earlier poster found with everything except SuSE.

But this observation doesn't tell you much about those other distros, 
except that I am out of practice using them. For better or for worse, Linux 
has fragmented noticably at the distro level, leading most people to be 
familiar with the quirks of one of the distros, but few of us to be current 
on several of them.

For a newcomer, each of the major distros ... at least the ones still being 
maintained, which includes Slackware, Red Hat, SuSE, Debian, and others 
(but I'm not sure if Caldera is still actively maintained) ... has its 
advantages and disadvantages. It does help to describe the strengths (and 
weaknesses) of a distribution you have real familiarity with. But vague 
criticisms like "really buggy" and "installation is notoriously difficult" 
do not really help a beginner make an informed decision.

Oh, one factual correction -- Debian does not default to a GUI install; you 
have to select an X "task" package at install time to get a GUI install. 
Last time I checked (several releases back), neither did Slackware.

At 06:25 AM 5/28/02 +0000, Richard Adams wrote:
>On Tuesday 28 May 2002 02:27, David Benfell wrote:
>
> > Red Hat, TurboLinux, and Caldera are really buggy.
>
>I certanly would not say that of redhat.
>
> >
> > My experience with Slackware was that it was simply too primitive.  It
> > probably has improved since, but when I tried it, you had to build too
> > much software to get the system into a usable state.  Some of the
> > required builds had booby traps that made it even more difficult.  I
> > never did get Netscape running on that version.
>
>Slackware is NOT primative, its the nearest to "unix" one can get which is
>why it may seem primative to you.
>
> >
> > Does Slackware use glibc yet?
>
>Yes.
>
> > In a subsequent post, you say you want to learn the nuts and bolts.
> > This is good, but is really not dependent on the distribution you
> > choose.  Most distributions install with a default to come up in GUI
> > mode, but you can modify /etc/inittab, changing the default run level
> > to come up in text mode.  You can then use the startx command to bring
> > up X whenever you need the GUI.
>
>Looks like you have never "installed" slackware yourself as there is one big
>differance, you start learning with the install of slackware, where as you
>dont with most others.
>
> >
> > The final argument for SuSE, I believe, is that of all the major
> > distributions, SuSE comes closest to the File Hierarchy Standard.  All
> > the distributions are moving in that direction, so for learning
> > purposes, SuSE may offer you a bit of a head start.
>
>Which is what makes "once again" slackware uniq.
>
>I have said all of this many times here on this list, i have most distro's
>running on different systems here and at my workplace, from what i have seen
>here when the question is asked, which distro's is the best to learn linux,
>slackware pops up.
>
>And BTW: 8.1 is out i see from www.slackware.com


--
-----------------------------------------------"Never tell me the 
odds!"--------------
Ray Olszewski					     -- Han Solo
Palo Alto, California, USA				ray@comarre.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Richard Adams]

On Tuesday 28 May 2002 06:40, Ray Olszewski wrote:
> I usually ignore these threads, but this one is starting to get an
> unpleasant tone, so let me try to encourage the proponents of the various
> distros to moderate their insistance before we get to a flame war.

So do i, but the thread was which one "learns" you the most and as we all
seem to agree in one way or another Slackware is best for that.

-- 
Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Ray Olszewski]

At 12:50 PM 5/28/02 +0000, Richard Adams wrote:
>On Tuesday 28 May 2002 06:40, Ray Olszewski wrote:
> > I usually ignore these threads, but this one is starting to get an
> > unpleasant tone, so let me try to encourage the proponents of the various
> > distros to moderate their insistance before we get to a flame war.
>
>So do i, but the thread was which one "learns" you the most and as we all
>seem to agree in one way or another Slackware is best for that.


Actually we don't all agree to this. I just see no benefit in extending the 
debate.



--
-----------------------------------------------"Never tell me the 
odds!"--------------
Ray Olszewski					     -- Han Solo
Palo Alto, California, USA				ray@comarre.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: which distribution to use?

[Richard Adams]

On Tuesday 28 May 2002 15:47, Ray Olszewski wrote:
> At 12:50 PM 5/28/02 +0000, Richard Adams wrote:
> >On Tuesday 28 May 2002 06:40, Ray Olszewski wrote:
> > > I usually ignore these threads, but this one is starting to get an
> > > unpleasant tone, so let me try to encourage the proponents of the
> > > various distros to moderate their insistance before we get to a flame
> > > war.
> >
> >So do i, but the thread was which one "learns" you the most and as we all
> >seem to agree in one way or another Slackware is best for that.
>
> Actually we don't all agree to this. I just see no benefit in extending the
> debate.

I did not say we agreed, i said most agree.

End of thread as far as i am concerned.

-- 
Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

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