tar for "full" floppy backup?

tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Jerry James Haumberger]

Hello everyone --

Thank you for offering me various suggestions on how to possibly
get tar to make a backup archive on multiple floppies.  Sorry to
say, none of the suggestions worked.

The only result was that tar would make an archive in whatever
directory I happened to be in when creating the archive -- and
it would ignore the /dev/fd0 device.

When I used the "M" option, nothing occurred.  When I tried
adding the "z" option, I was told that multiple compressed archives
were not possible.

When I try to use the Slackware manual command (SAMS), it messes
up the floppy -- which has to be reformatted and so on.

The question remains:  How can I back up -- with tar or any other
Slackware 3.5 program -- my 9 MBs of files from the BasicLinux
console with multiple floppies?  And in compressed format?



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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Chuck Gelm]

 Hi, Jerry:

 What version of 'tar' do you have?
tar --version

 Please show us your exact command line 
  and the exact error message(s).

 I am guessing that your command line should be:

tar -cyvMf /dev/fd0 /directory_to_be_backed_up
 ...
tar -xyvMf /dev/fd0

?
'y'=bz2 compression, 'z'=gzip compression

 What I want to know is if/how the /dev/fd0 media
  should be formatted.  :-|  Should it have a file system?
? superformat /dev/fd0u1440 ? 

HTH, Chuck

Jerry James Haumberger wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone --
> 
> Thank you for offering me various suggestions on how to possibly
> get tar to make a backup archive on multiple floppies.  Sorry to
> say, none of the suggestions worked.
> 
> The only result was that tar would make an archive in whatever
> directory I happened to be in when creating the archive -- and
> it would ignore the /dev/fd0 device.
> 
> When I used the "M" option, nothing occurred.  When I tried
> adding the "z" option, I was told that multiple compressed archives
> were not possible.
> 
> When I try to use the Slackware manual command (SAMS), it messes
> up the floppy -- which has to be reformatted and so on.
> 
> The question remains:  How can I back up -- with tar or any other
> Slackware 3.5 program -- my 9 MBs of files from the BasicLinux
> console with multiple floppies?  And in compressed format?
> 
> -
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tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Rolf Edlund]

Originally to: Jerry James Haumberger


 JH> The question remains:  How can I back up -- with tar or any other
 JH> Slackware 3.5 program -- my 9 MBs of files from the BasicLinux
 JH> console with multiple floppies?  And in compressed format?

One of these commands..

 # man tar
 # info tar
 # tar --help

..will give you all information you need about your tar version.

... To quote or not to quote, that is the question.

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Ray Olszewski]

At 08:08 PM 12/7/02 +0000, Rolf Edlund wrote:
>Originally to: Jerry James Haumberger
>
>
>  JH> The question remains:  How can I back up -- with tar or any other
>  JH> Slackware 3.5 program -- my 9 MBs of files from the BasicLinux
>  JH> console with multiple floppies?  And in compressed format?
>
>One of these commands..
>
>  # man tar
>  # info tar
>  # tar --help
>
>..will give you all information you need about your tar version.

"all" information? Hardly. Neither "man tar" nor "tar --help" gave *me* 
enough information to be able to answer his original question (though it 
did point me to the -M option, which I suggested trying), and my system 
(like many; it really has not caught on, despite pressure from the FSF 
crowd) does not even have the "info" system installed. (Does BasicLinux 
install it?)

FSF does have a tar tutorial available online 
(http://www.gnu.org/manual/tar-1.12/html_chapter/tar_toc.html), but even it 
doesn not answer the original question very clearly.

So this was almost a textbook example of a good question for this list ... 
one that needs more than RTFM answers, but a response (which it eventually 
elicited) from someone who could provide an example of how to do it.


--
-------------------------------------------"Never tell me the odds!"--------
Ray Olszewski					-- Han Solo
Palo Alto, California, USA			  ray@comarre.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[ichi]

Ray Olszewski wrote:
> 
> my system (like many; it really has not caught on, despite 
> pressure from the FSF crowd) does not even have the "info" 
> system installed. (Does BasicLinux install it?)

No, BasicLinux does not have info (although it does have
some man pages).  BasicLinux is designed for old PCs with
small HD, so there aren't many bells & whistles.  Of course,
if anybody really wanted to run info, that package could be
installed from Slackware 3.5.

Cheers,
Steven

______________________________
http://www.volny.cz/basiclinux

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tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Rolf Edlund]

Originally to: Ray Olszewski


 RO> "all" information? Hardly.

Hmmmm...

 RO> Neither "man tar" nor "tar --help" gave *me* enough information to be
 RO> able to answer his original question (though it did point me to the
 RO> -M option, which I suggested trying),

If his version of Tar hadn't have the -M option, that had not worked for him.

 RO> and my system (like many; it really has not caught on, despite
 RO> pressure from the FSF crowd) does not even have the "info" system
 RO> installed.

As I wrote "One of.."

 RO> (Does BasicLinux install it?)

Dunno that..

 RO> one that needs more than RTFM answers,

It was not my intension to be a RTFM answer..

... A quote is a quote is a quote is a quote..

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[ichi]

Jerry James Haumberger wrote:
> 
> The question remains:  How can I back up -- with tar or 
> any other Slackware 3.5 program -- my 9 MBs of files from 
> the BasicLinux console with multiple floppies?  And in 
> compressed format?

It would be possible to create a compressed archive and 
then split it into floppy-sized chunks.  Like this:
-------------------------------------------
tar -zcvf - /usr | split - -C 1440k floppy.
-------------------------------------------
This will give you floppy.aa, floppy.ab, floppy.ac, etc.
You could write a script around that to copy the files
(for i in floppy.*) to floppies (prompt, mount, copy, 
umount).

To reverse the process, use cat instead of split.

Cheers,
Steven


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tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Jerry James Haumberger]

>> As it stands, it's possible to backup to multiple floppy 
>> disks with tar, but these cannot be compressed during the 
>> archival process.  

>Why not use tar twice:  first with -zcf to make a compressed
>archive and then with --multi-volume to write the archive
>to floppy.  Of course to retrieve it, you will also have
>to use tar twice:  first with --multi-volume to reconstruct
>the archive and then with -cvf to unpack it.

What result would you get with that method if you wanted to
review the multiple archive's details with -->

tar --multi-volume -tv --file=/dev/fd0 > backup.log

-->?  Not that much detail.  Just that one big file.

The tar backup routine I've described with your BasicLinux
distribution barely took over six floppy disks, yet I still want
to check out the results, or at least have them available.  (And
I've done just that -- I can review the results of that backup
from a file that had the results directed to it while using the
tar command above.)

For quick backup of important files, though, I'm using the following
script -- perhaps a little "busier" than it needs to be, but then
I'm just a "linux-newbie"... ;-)

-----------------------

cd /home
mount /dev/fd0 /fd14
tar cvpf hot_backup.tar /etc /home /root /var/eznet
gzip hot_backup.tar
rm /fd14/hot_backup/hot_backup.tar.gz
mv hot_backup.tar.gz /fd14/hot_backup
umount /fd14
echo "***FINISHED***"

-----------------------

This works nicely to backup all of my important files, which I can
do much more frequently and easily than the full backup routine with
tar.  What's more, I can also view the results of this file under mc.

This "hot_backup" routine created a tar/gzip file only about 132k in
size.  My rule of thumb is that, when my important file backup exceeds
the size of a 1.44MB floppy disk, it's time to fully backup my system.


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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[dashielljt]

Wrong, the extract command in the second part would have to be tar xvf not
tar cvf.

Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

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tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Jerry James Haumberger]

>> One of these commands..
>>
>>  # man tar
>>  # info tar
>>  # tar --help
>>
>>..will give you all information you need about your tar version.

>"all" information? Hardly. Neither "man tar" nor "tar --help" gave *me* 
>enough information to be able to answer his original question (though it 
>did point me to the -M option, which I suggested trying), and my system 
>(like many; it really has not caught on, despite pressure from the FSF 
>crowd) does not even have the "info" system installed. (Does BasicLinux 
>install it?)

BasicLinux does not install the info system, but I'm certain it could be
obtained from the Slackware 3.5 distribution.

I carefully consulted the man and tar --help information, three of the
SAMS thick manuals, Linux for Dummies, and even the Linux Companion for
System Administrators (by Jochen Hein), but none of these offered enough
examples or clearly working commands to accomplish what I was told by
consulting the linux-newbie list.  Also, I came here by the suggestion
of Steven Darnold, who is the author of the BasicLinux distribution.

As it stands, it's possible to backup to multiple floppy disks with
tar, but these cannot be compressed during the archival process.  (The
tar program itself reports that it's not possible, if you attempt to
use the compression options.)  The BasicLinux system, even with the
addition of several full programs to enhance it for my purposes, does
not exceed 10 megabytes.  So for this reason, I still found it
personally adequate to attempt a multiple floppy disk tar archive
without the benefit of compression.  I still plan, however, to use a
combination of tar and gzip for backing up selected documents onto
floppy disks, along with other important configuration files on a more
frequent schedule.

A few more notes:  I should have said that the badblocks (not the
badblock) command is used for checking floppies (BasicLinux has this
command), although when you fdformat floppies, it will tell you
if there is a bad area on it.

This is the style of backup I've chosen for this system.  No one,
though, should feel that this is the expected or "normal" method of
backup for typical Linux systems.  We would normally expect a Linux
system on a network backup routine, or at least with a method of
backing up to tape, another hard drive or zip drive.

>So this was almost a textbook example of a good question for this list... 
>one that needs more than RTFM answers, but a response (which it
>eventually elicited) from someone who could provide an example of how
>to do it.

Thank you, Ray.  I'd consider that a reasonable summary of the matter.


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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[ichi]

Jerry James Haumberger wrote:
> 
> As it stands, it's possible to backup to multiple floppy 
> disks with tar, but these cannot be compressed during the 
> archival process.  

Why not use tar twice:  first with -zcf to make a compressed
archive and then with --multi-volume to write the archive
to floppy.  Of course to retrieve it, you will also have
to use tar twice:  first with --multi-volume to reconstruct
the archive and then with -cvf to unpack it.

Cheers,
Steven

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[dashielljt]

I wouldn't try that in that way, but the basic idea might work.  I say
might because I've never tried this and have never heard of any success
with this idea either.  One might do something like: tar czf * | tar cmvf
- /dev/fdd0/backup.tar.gz.  This pipes the compressed result into a
multivolume media result if it works.

Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[ichi]

dashielljt wrote:
> 
> I've never tried this and have never heard of 
> any success with this idea either.  

I do not see the problem.  It is easy to create a 
compressed archive file (let's call it backup.tgz).  
Tar happily tars a single file, so why can't it
tar backup.tgz (multi-volume)?

Cheers,
Steven

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[dashielljt]

You're not asking any developer of tar that question, and I haven't
studied the program's source code so can't answer your questionn.

Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Mr. James W. Laferriere]

	Hello Gents ,  One word ,  df .  Hth ,  JimL

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 ichi@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> dashielljt wrote:
> > I've never tried this and have never heard of
> > any success with this idea either.
> I do not see the problem.  It is easy to create a
> compressed archive file (let's call it backup.tgz).
> Tar happily tars a single file, so why can't it
> tar backup.tgz (multi-volume)?
> Cheers,
> Steven
-- 
       +------------------------------------------------------------------+
       | James   W.   Laferriere | System    Techniques | Give me VMS     |
       | Network        Engineer |     P.O. Box 854     |  Give me Linux  |
       | babydr@baby-dragons.com | Coudersport PA 16915 |   only  on  AXP |
       +------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Mr. James W. Laferriere]

	Hello Jerry & all ,
	If it is Slackware the tar binary provided is Gnu-Tar .
	Try doing a 'tar --help' & report the output from
	'tar --version' .  There maybe issues with certain versions
	of tar .  Another item to look at is can you read floppies on
	your system if you don't have mtools avaiable , try
	'dd if=/dev/fd0 count=10 | strings'
	If that works , try (you will have to reforamt the flopy tho)
	'dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/fd0 count=10'
	to see if you can Write to the floppy .

	Compressed you are not going to accomplish easily .
	Maybe someone else can address a method of compressing the
	input INLINE with the multi-volume archive issue .
		Hth ,  JimL

 -- Generic descriptions of options used (on my system)

tar --multi-volume \
  --label="Some Label" \
  --create \
  --preserve-permissions \
  --same-owner \
  --file=/dev/fd0 \
  "List Of Files To Backup"


  -- The actual command that I used to creat a 4 Volume set tar archive

tar --multi-volume --label="Root-Bin-test" --create --preserve-permissions --file=/dev/fd0 /root/bin


  -- The output from the above command during execution .

tar: Removing leading `/' from absolute path names in the archive
Prepare volume #2 for /dev/fd0 and hit return:
Prepare volume #3 for /dev/fd0 and hit return:
Prepare volume #4 for /dev/fd0 and hit return:

-- 
       +------------------------------------------------------------------+
       | James   W.   Laferriere | System    Techniques | Give me VMS     |
       | Network        Engineer |     P.O. Box 854     |  Give me Linux  |
       | babydr@baby-dragons.com | Coudersport PA 16915 |   only  on  AXP |
       +------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[ichi]

Mr. James W. Laferriere wrote:
> 
> Compressed you are not going to accomplish easily .
> Maybe someone else can address a method of compressing 
> the input INLINE with the multi-volume archive issue .

Couldn't this simply be done by using tar twice:  first
tar with -zcf and then tar the result multi-volume?

Cheers,
Steven

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Chuck Gelm]

 I did

tar -cyvf /boot /dev/fd0
 and 
/mnt# tar -xyvf /dev/fd0
 and it created 
/mnt/boot/
 and all the files from /boot appeared in /mnt/boot

 Next I tried
tar -cvMf /dev/fd0 /etc
 and after some floppy action, I was prompted:

"Prepare volume #2 for /dev/fd0 and hit return:"

I'd recommend running 'badblocks' on the diskettes
and using only those that report 0 bad blocks.
;-)

tar --version
tar (GNU tar) 1.13
 ...

HTH, Chuck
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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[whitnl73]

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Chuck Gelm wrote:

>  I did
>
> tar -cyvf /boot /dev/fd0
>  and
> /mnt# tar -xyvf /dev/fd0
>  and it created
> /mnt/boot/
>  and all the files from /boot appeared in /mnt/boot

Yes, it will do that.  cd to where you want the files restored to first,
or use -C:

tar -C / -xyvf /dev/fd0
>
>  Next I tried
> tar -cvMf /dev/fd0 /etc
>  and after some floppy action, I was prompted:
>
> "Prepare volume #2 for /dev/fd0 and hit return:"
>
> I'd recommend running 'badblocks' on the diskettes
> and using only those that report 0 bad blocks.
> ;-)

I don't like using a raw floppy for anything but mkfs.
I'd rather make a filesystem on each one and save a named file on it.
That way, if I can't read my writing on the label, all is not lost.
Restore the files to their own [temporary] directory, cat them together,
and untar them.
You are trying to use a floppy as a tape, and it just isn't really a
tape.  Come to think of it, a tape isn't a very good tape either.
>
> tar --version
> tar (GNU tar) 1.13
>  ...
>
> HTH, Chuck

Lawson
--
---oops---



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tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Jerry James Haumberger]

Hello everyone --

An old Slackware 3.0 manual suggests the following command with
tar for a full backup onto 3.5" floppy disks:

tar cvfbk /dev/fd0 1440 4 /

I've read that the "k" option is supposed to cause tar to prompt
for adding multiple disks as the archive exceeds the size of each
floppy disk, but I receive errors, and the backup stalls.

Does anyone know of a one-line command string for using tar
to backup all that's necessary (I realize that *everything*
doesn't have to be backed up, such as empty directories, etc.)?

And what would be the correct command using tar to restore this
backup?

Can the multiple floppy disk archive be gzipped during the tar
archive process -- or would this make it impossible to restore
the archive later?

Am I using the wrong utility to attempt floppy disk backups?

I only have about 9 MBs of material (from BasicLinux) to
back up and am using a full version of tar from Slackware 3.5,
and I'm not working with a network here.

Please excuse my ignorance, and thanks for any suggestions!


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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[dashielljt]

Whoever got that manual should be given a full refund by slackware if it
is as you say.  The f in that command string has to precede a device name
and file path.

Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Jerry James Haumberger wrote:

> Hello everyone --
>
> An old Slackware 3.0 manual suggests the following command with
> tar for a full backup onto 3.5" floppy disks:
>
> tar cvfbk /dev/fd0 1440 4 /
>
> I've read that the "k" option is supposed to cause tar to prompt
> for adding multiple disks as the archive exceeds the size of each
> floppy disk, but I receive errors, and the backup stalls.
>
> Does anyone know of a one-line command string for using tar
> to backup all that's necessary (I realize that *everything*
> doesn't have to be backed up, such as empty directories, etc.)?
>
> And what would be the correct command using tar to restore this
> backup?
>
> Can the multiple floppy disk archive be gzipped during the tar
> archive process -- or would this make it impossible to restore
> the archive later?
>
> Am I using the wrong utility to attempt floppy disk backups?
>
> I only have about 9 MBs of material (from BasicLinux) to
> back up and am using a full version of tar from Slackware 3.5,
> and I'm not working with a network here.
>
> Please excuse my ignorance, and thanks for any suggestions!
>
>
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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[dashielljt]

maybe tar cvbkf /dev ... will work.

Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Jerry James Haumberger wrote:

> Hello everyone --
>
> An old Slackware 3.0 manual suggests the following command with
> tar for a full backup onto 3.5" floppy disks:
>
> tar cvfbk /dev/fd0 1440 4 /
>
> I've read that the "k" option is supposed to cause tar to prompt
> for adding multiple disks as the archive exceeds the size of each
> floppy disk, but I receive errors, and the backup stalls.
>
> Does anyone know of a one-line command string for using tar
> to backup all that's necessary (I realize that *everything*
> doesn't have to be backed up, such as empty directories, etc.)?
>
> And what would be the correct command using tar to restore this
> backup?
>
> Can the multiple floppy disk archive be gzipped during the tar
> archive process -- or would this make it impossible to restore
> the archive later?
>
> Am I using the wrong utility to attempt floppy disk backups?
>
> I only have about 9 MBs of material (from BasicLinux) to
> back up and am using a full version of tar from Slackware 3.5,
> and I'm not working with a network here.
>
> Please excuse my ignorance, and thanks for any suggestions!
>
>
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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Chuck Gelm]

Howdy, dashielljt:

 I was thinking along the same lines.  I am only familiar
with the last option being 'f'.  Yet I noticed that the 'b'
command needs an operator too.  Perhaps the operators are
appended in the same order they are requested by the options.
'f' filename.ext or /dev/*
'b' block size
'k' ?
 i.e.
tar cvfbk /dev/fd0 1440 4 /
      \\\
       \\k = 4
        \b = 1440
         f = /dev/fd0
?
HTH, Chuck

dashielljt wrote:
> 
> maybe tar cvbkf /dev ... will work.
<snip>
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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[Ray Olszewski]

Chuck, you're right on target about how the agruments that get parameters 
get them. Skipping the problematic "k" part for the moment, a command like

         tar cvfb somefilename.tar 40 some_files_to_tar_up

would work just fine, putting whatever matched some_files_to_tar_up in 
somefilename.tar . Try it for yourself. No need to badmouth an old 
Slackware manual (or demand a refund from poor old Patrick) for saying to 
do it this way.

OTOH, old Slackware manuals are ... well, old, and tar has an unfortunate 
tendency to change its parameter meanings from time to time. I don't have a 
ready way to check what the k parameter did way back when Slackware 3 was 
current (October 1995, according to my genuine Slackware CD), but these 
days it has nothing to do with multi-volume settings. Check the man page to 
see this.

I don't tar to floppies here, so I've not tried it, but I'd suggest your 
seeing if the -M (multi-volume) parameter can be used to do what you want.

At 06:35 PM 12/6/02 -0500, Chuck Gelm wrote:
>Howdy, dashielljt:
>
>  I was thinking along the same lines.  I am only familiar
>with the last option being 'f'.  Yet I noticed that the 'b'
>command needs an operator too.  Perhaps the operators are
>appended in the same order they are requested by the options.
>'f' filename.ext or /dev/*
>'b' block size
>'k' ?
>  i.e.
>tar cvfbk /dev/fd0 1440 4 /
>       \\\
>        \\k = 4
>         \b = 1440
>          f = /dev/fd0
>?
>HTH, Chuck
>
>dashielljt wrote:
> >
> > maybe tar cvbkf /dev ... will work.
><snip>



--
-------------------------------------------"Never tell me the odds!"--------
Ray Olszewski					-- Han Solo
Palo Alto, California, USA			  ray@comarre.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: tar for "full" floppy backup?

[dashielljt]

Take the b option out of there completely I think.  Blocks are used for
tapes but not normally disk devices such as floppy disks.

Jude <dashielljt(at)gmpexpress-dot-net>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Chuck Gelm wrote:

> Howdy, dashielljt:
>
>  I was thinking along the same lines.  I am only familiar
> with the last option being 'f'.  Yet I noticed that the 'b'
> command needs an operator too.  Perhaps the operators are
> appended in the same order they are requested by the options.
> 'f' filename.ext or /dev/*
> 'b' block size
> 'k' ?
>  i.e.
> tar cvfbk /dev/fd0 1440 4 /
>       \\\
>        \\k = 4
>         \b = 1440
>          f = /dev/fd0
> ?
> HTH, Chuck
>
> dashielljt wrote:
> >
> > maybe tar cvbkf /dev ... will work.
> <snip>
>
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