distribution choice

distribution choice

[Haines Brown]

I've always used Red Hat. My installation of 7.3 began to go sour last
fall after a clumbsy video driver installation. Things got more
and more complicated, and I ended up having to do a fresh install of
Red Hats 8.0. Since then, things just have not worked right and I'm
spending all to much of my valuable time doing repairs, often
unsuccessfully.  

I'm considering a retreat to 7.3, but must also consider changing
distributions. Here are my criteria:

1. I like to rely as much as possible on keyboard input rather than
   the mouse. Red Hat seems to be moving in the opposite direction,
   and more and more I'm being forced to use the mouse. 

2. I must have multiple desktops and window stacking. I don't know
   that any window manager supports stacking order except
   enlightenment. Yet I like Gnome's panel and applets. These two
   applications don't get along well in RedHat 8.0, but do in gentoo;
   I don't know about other distributions. I've never used Windows,
   and so don't find anything appealing in a Windows-like interface. 

3. I've got plenty of hardware muscle, so don't worry much about
   speed. It is fairly standard SCSI and USB stuff, hardware
   compatibility is probably not a big issue. 

4. I don't need to be at the bleeding edge in terms of kernel and
   applications, but I need my stand-alone workstation with DSL
   connection to be secure and reliable. I've an interest in ham radio,
   which used to favor one distribution, but I assume there's no
   significant difference today.

5. I don't find ease of installation to be an issue, and am quite
   willing to put up with gentoo's notoriously slow compile.

6. I'm quite willing to edit configuration files by hand, but will
   occasionally need spiritual advice, and so would prefer a
   distribution that's not too exotic. I find configuration files that
   are on the move to be a pain. 

7. I mostly use a few standard applications, especially emacs.

In light of this, which distributions should I be considering? Does
one of them stand out in your opinion as an obvious choice in light of
my criteria?

Haines  
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Re: distribution choice

[pa3gcu]

On Thursday 27 February 2003 18:59, Haines Brown wrote:

Trim.

> In light of this, which distributions should I be considering? Does
> one of them stand out in your opinion as an obvious choice in light of
> my criteria?

Slackware.

>
> Haines

-- 
Regards Richard
pa3gcu@zeelandnet.nl
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/pa3gcu/

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Re: distribution choice

[Brian Jackson]

You are going to get as many different answers to this question as you would 
what's you favorite $something. Only bad part about that is that most people 
who answer these questions have never really used more than 1 or 2 
distributions.(usually the first one they try doesn't work so they blame it 
on the dist and try something else) I have used quite a few different 
distributions before, and am mostly drawn to the ones that are the least user 
friendly because they usually provide better control. So for the longest time 
I was a Slack junkie, until sometime last year when I heard about this "new" 
dist called Gentoo(Oh, you've heard of it.... excellent) It is everything 
that I have ever wanted in a dist. Since I started using it, I have been on a 
rampage upgrading all the servers at work and all boxes at home to Gentoo. It 
doesn't have any harder of a learning curve than any other dists I've ever 
used, but for some people it just isn't what they are after. All that being 
said I don't think I would suggest it for people that don't have that need 
for total control. It all comes down to what you are after. Of all the 
prettyboy dists (the ones where you are actually working against yourself if 
you try to edit config files) I like SuSE the best. I've heard great things 
about the new RH 8.1 beta from friends. You unfortunately may be jaded after 
trying 8.0(note to all those who haven't figured out the cardinal rule about 
RH: Never use a redhat .0 release!!!!) I hope this helped in the least bit. 
Good luck in your search.

--Brian Jackson

On Thursday 27 February 2003 12:59 pm, Haines Brown wrote:
> I've always used Red Hat. My installation of 7.3 began to go sour last
> fall after a clumbsy video driver installation. Things got more
> and more complicated, and I ended up having to do a fresh install of
> Red Hats 8.0. Since then, things just have not worked right and I'm
> spending all to much of my valuable time doing repairs, often
> unsuccessfully.
>
> I'm considering a retreat to 7.3, but must also consider changing
> distributions. Here are my criteria:
>
> 1. I like to rely as much as possible on keyboard input rather than
>    the mouse. Red Hat seems to be moving in the opposite direction,
>    and more and more I'm being forced to use the mouse.
>
> 2. I must have multiple desktops and window stacking. I don't know
>    that any window manager supports stacking order except
>    enlightenment. Yet I like Gnome's panel and applets. These two
>    applications don't get along well in RedHat 8.0, but do in gentoo;
>    I don't know about other distributions. I've never used Windows,
>    and so don't find anything appealing in a Windows-like interface.
>
> 3. I've got plenty of hardware muscle, so don't worry much about
>    speed. It is fairly standard SCSI and USB stuff, hardware
>    compatibility is probably not a big issue.
>
> 4. I don't need to be at the bleeding edge in terms of kernel and
>    applications, but I need my stand-alone workstation with DSL
>    connection to be secure and reliable. I've an interest in ham radio,
>    which used to favor one distribution, but I assume there's no
>    significant difference today.
>
> 5. I don't find ease of installation to be an issue, and am quite
>    willing to put up with gentoo's notoriously slow compile.
>
> 6. I'm quite willing to edit configuration files by hand, but will
>    occasionally need spiritual advice, and so would prefer a
>    distribution that's not too exotic. I find configuration files that
>    are on the move to be a pain.
>
> 7. I mostly use a few standard applications, especially emacs.
>
> In light of this, which distributions should I be considering? Does
> one of them stand out in your opinion as an obvious choice in light of
> my criteria?
>
> Haines
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Re: distribution choice

[Ray Olszewski]

I think Brian's general response here is right on target. Most of us know 
(and like) one distribution, and perhaps know a bit about one or two 
others. But I very much doubt any of us is in a real position honestly to 
compare all (or even all the major) distributions available.

Rather than pretend to an expertise I don't have, I'll try to be helpful by 
commenting on how well Debian fits with each of your criteria.

At 01:59 PM 2/27/2003 -0500, Haines Brown wrote:
>I've always used Red Hat. My installation of 7.3 began to go sour last
>fall after a clumbsy video driver installation. Things got more
>and more complicated, and I ended up having to do a fresh install of
>Red Hats 8.0. Since then, things just have not worked right and I'm
>spending all to much of my valuable time doing repairs, often
>unsuccessfully.
>
>I'm considering a retreat to 7.3, but must also consider changing
>distributions. Here are my criteria:
>
>1. I like to rely as much as possible on keyboard input rather than
>    the mouse. Red Hat seems to be moving in the opposite direction,
>    and more and more I'm being forced to use the mouse.

I mostly use my systems as remote servers (my everyday desktop is a Win2K 
machine) accessed via ssh sessions. So in that context, *everything* is 
done with the keyboard. The main exceptions are some video apps that run in 
X ... they all run very nicely from xterms, though they usually have GUIs 
that require a pointing device (a trackball, for me).

>2. I must have multiple desktops and window stacking. I don't know
>    that any window manager supports stacking order except
>    enlightenment. Yet I like Gnome's panel and applets. These two
>    applications don't get along well in RedHat 8.0, but do in gentoo;
>    I don't know about other distributions. I've never used Windows,
>    and so don't find anything appealing in a Windows-like interface.

I use the minimalist X wm Blackbox myself, so I can't comment on these 
heavyweight X wm choices, beyond noting that they are all available in 
Debian. Blackbox, like almost all wms, provides multiple workspaces (I 
assume the equivalent to your "desktops") but not window stacking ... as I 
said, it is minimalist, uncluttered, and (for me) tranquil and soothing.

>3. I've got plenty of hardware muscle, so don't worry much about
>    speed. It is fairly standard SCSI and USB stuff, hardware
>    compatibility is probably not a big issue.

This is mostly in the kernel, so I would expect it to be distribution 
agnostic. Hardware *detection* is a different issue, and on that score, 
Debian fares poorly ... unless you use very mainstream stuff, you have to 
tell Debian a lot about your hardware.

>4. I don't need to be at the bleeding edge in terms of kernel and
>    applications, but I need my stand-alone workstation with DSL
>    connection to be secure and reliable. I've an interest in ham radio,
>    which used to favor one distribution, but I assume there's no
>    significant difference today.

DSL usually (though not always) implies PPPoE, and for that, the RP package 
is pretty much it, also distro independent. I don't know anything about the 
ham radio stuff. In the past, the Debian package manager set up PPPoE for 
me just fine (now I have a static address and a NAT'ing router -- also 
Debian based -- so I no longer use RP PPPoE).

>5. I don't find ease of installation to be an issue, and am quite
>    willing to put up with gentoo's notoriously slow compile.

I don't know Gentoo closeup, so any notoriety it exhibits has escaped my 
attention. Do you mean kernel compiles? If so, Debian is nothing special 
either way here.

Debian is OK on ease of installation ... not awaul, not great, and more 
suited (in my opinion) to custom installs than to "standard workstation" 
installs. (Debian uses a set of dummy "task" packages to provide some 
standard configs, but I stopped using them years ago, finding them a bit 
bloated for my taste.)

>6. I'm quite willing to edit configuration files by hand, but will
>    occasionally need spiritual advice, and so would prefer a
>    distribution that's not too exotic. I find configuration files that
>    are on the move to be a pain.

I supose "not too exotic" means one where you can ask questions and get 
useful answers. I don't think there are a lot of Debian users here on this 
list, but there is an active (for me, too active) set of Debian help lists. 
You might want to subscribe to one or a few of them, as well as similar 
lists from other candidate distros, to get a sense of which offer the kind 
of help you would like.

Also consider that more and more, specialized applications have their own 
sites and user lists, where you can ask more focused questions and 
(usually) get specialized help.

>7. I mostly use a few standard applications, especially emacs.

I don't use emacs myself, but my son is a real emacs fan, and he's quite 
happy with Debian's support for it. I can't comment, of course, on unnamed 
"standard applications", except perhaps to note that if they really are 
standard, then all the distros will support them fairly well (that's almost 
the definition of "standard", I would think).

>In light of this, which distributions should I be considering? Does
>one of them stand out in your opinion as an obvious choice in light of
>my criteria?

I would say that your question, as posed, does not have an "obvious" answer.

I'd need a better sense of the actual apps you use to answer this question, 
beyond saying that any of the conventional "major" distros -- RH, Mandrake, 
SuSE, Debian, I suppose even Slackware (sorry, Richard) -- are candidates. 
I would limit my range of choice to the distros that are active enough that 
they get regular updates, so the core apps are current, as bugfree as 
possible, and not vulnerable to security threats ... you mention none of 
this in your list of criteria, but it's hard for me to think about software 
choices without considering these issues.

(It's those issues that cause me to like Debian. Debian Stable is a 
rock-solid way of doing core, conventional things, and Debian Unstable is 
good at keeping up to date with bleeding-edge apps. Richard, perhaps you'd 
like to comment on Slackware in this regard, especially its system for 
providing security-related updates?)

You might ask yourself to what extent your problems with RH come from 
trying to use the free version of a distro intended to make money (it's 
been far too long since I used RH, or anything but Debian and specialized, 
small distros like LEAF, for me to dare try to answer this for you). If the 
answer looks like "quite a bit", then consider Debian on that score ... 
it's designed to be free, supported by its community of maintainers. After 
Debian, consider Slackware ... not free in the same sense, but still coming 
out of Walnut Creek, which makes its money modestly by selling CDs, not by 
trying to be a big-name IPO.

I'd be *very* cautious about a "retreat" to RH 7.3, unless you can satisfy 
yourself that it gets good security updates ... with a DSL connection, you 
are vulnerable to attacks from the Internet pretty much all the time, right?



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Re: distribution choice

[Haines Brown]

Yes, it is usually kind of a pointless question, for basically, all
the main distrubutions are the same, and the differences may be nothing
more than a matter of personal choice.

I'm inclined toward Debian, for I don't care for the direction I think
Red Hat is headed. The alternative to it might be gentoo, but I've
heard too many horror stories about installation, and don't feel any
compunction to endure it myself. As someone said, Slackware is more a
hobby than an operating system, and since I have a life, I'm more
inclined to Debian. 

Haines 
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Re: distribution choice

[Haines Brown]

Ray,

Your frank comments are very much appreciated, especially for such a
nuisance question as I posed.

> Rather than pretend to an expertise I don't have, I'll try to be
> helpful by commenting on how well Debian fits with each of your
> criteria.

I'm inclined in that direction, so your comments helpful.
 
> I use the minimalist X wm Blackbox myself, so I can't comment on
> these heavyweight X wm choices, beyond noting that they are all
> available in Debian.

I'm in a situation where I'm constantly typing, cutting and pasting,
not only with emacs, but other applications as well. I've mo moral
objection to the mouse, but find it very annoying to have to use the
keyboard and mouse simultaneously, so prefer to do as much as possible
with the keyboard. Another consequence is that if I type into a file
and then another, the original disappears below other windows, and if
I forget it, I'm likely to save it and overwrite my work. What I need
is stacked windows, not queued windows, and I know that enlightenment
can handle that. Otherwise I'm comfortable with gnome.

I get the impression that under Debian, one can run enlightenment
under gnome2, while in RedHat, that can be difficult and risky
(mileage varies).

> Hardware *detection* is a different issue, and on that score, Debian
> fares poorly ... unless you use very mainstream stuff, you have to
> tell Debian a lot about your hardware.

By "mainstream," you do mean machines (Dell, Gateway, etc.) or
components (Maxtor, 3M, etc.)? My impression is that the mass
assembled machines sometimes use odd components, and so adapting to
the machine or the component can have quite different results.

> In the past, the Debian package manager set up PPPoE for me just
> fine

Good to know. That side of things can be a real pain.
 
> Debian is OK on ease of installation ... not awaul, not great, and
> more suited (in my opinion) to custom installs than to "standard
> workstation" installs. (Debian uses a set of dummy "task" packages
> to provide some standard configs, but I stopped using them years
> ago, finding them a bit bloated for my taste.)

I used to worry about customizing package selection, but handicaped by
not really being sure what they are. My salvation (if one call it
that) is the low price of giant hard disks these days, and so I can
just load everything (HOWTOs in Japanese, etc.). Is debian informative
about what the various packages are?

> I don't think there are a lot of Debian users here on this list, but
> there is an active (for me, too active) set of Debian help lists.
> You might want to subscribe to one or a few of them, as well as
> similar lists from other candidate distros, to get a sense of which
> offer the kind of help you would like.

Thanks for the useful information.

> I can't comment, of course, on unnamed "standard applications",
> except perhaps to note that if they really are standard, then all
> the distros will support them fairly well (that's almost the
> definition of "standard", I would think).

> I would say that your question, as posed, does not have an "obvious"
> answer.

Non-obvious answers are actually very helpful.

> I would limit my range of choice to the distros that are active
> enough that they get regular updates, so the core apps are current,
> as bugfree as possible, and not vulnerable to security threats
> ... you mention none of this in your list of criteria, but it's hard
> for me to think about software choices without considering these
> issues.

I mentioned security, and since I'm on line all the time, I'm
especially concerned about it. I've probably been bitten once or
twice, but now use Bastille, which may be an example of a
"non-standard" application. Since I'm suffering (I suspect) from bugs
in RH8.0, I'm not impressed with waging a fight against them by using
the newest releases ;-). RedHat keeps me pretty well informed about
security issues as they come up.

> You might ask yourself to what extent your problems with RH come
> from trying to use the free version of a distro intended to make
> money

Do you mean a compromise of the distribution's integrety in order to
capture greater market share? If so, I suspect I may be a victim of
that with RedHat 8.0.

> I'd be *very* cautious about a "retreat" to RH 7.3, unless you can
> satisfy yourself that it gets good security updates ... with a DSL
> connection, you are vulnerable to attacks from the Internet pretty
> much all the time, right?

As I mentioned, I think I was subject to attack under RH7.3. Other
than that, however, the distributions 7.1 and 7.3 proved to be was
very solid for me. However, besides security issues, backtracking is
likely to break things unless I do a fresh re-install. But then why
not simply go to gentoo, Debian or Slackware?

Thanks for your comments. They are more helpful than you realize.

Haines
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Re: distribution choice

[Ray Olszewski]

Haines -- Your reply posed a couple of new questions. I'm limiting these 
comments to answering them.

At 06:07 PM 2/27/2003 -0500, Haines Brown wrote:
[...]
> > Hardware *detection* is a different issue, and on that score, Debian
> > fares poorly ... unless you use very mainstream stuff, you have to
> > tell Debian a lot about your hardware.
>
>By "mainstream," you do mean machines (Dell, Gateway, etc.) or
>components (Maxtor, 3M, etc.)? My impression is that the mass
>assembled machines sometimes use odd components, and so adapting to
>the machine or the component can have quite different results.

I meant components. (Except for an old E-Machine I'm in the process of 
converting from Win98, I build all my own Linux systems, so I have 
absolutely zero experience installing Linux on Gateway or Dell boxes.)

NICs are a good example (and the one I keep colliding with). The stock 
Debian install kernel contains built-in drivers for tulip, eepro100, and 
maybe one or two others. If you use anything less ordinary, you need to add 
the right module (and to know which one is right).

I'm told that RH is much better at hardware detection ... but I'm also told 
that the RH installer is somewhat Windows-like, in that if it is stumped, 
there is no ready way for you to move ahead by identifying unrecognized 
hardware for it. But I don't know any of that from my own experience, so it 
could easily be a misunderstanding on my part.

[...]
>I used to worry about customizing package selection, but handicaped by
>not really being sure what they are. My salvation (if one call it
>that) is the low price of giant hard disks these days, and so I can
>just load everything (HOWTOs in Japanese, etc.). Is debian informative
>about what the various packages are?

Probably about as informative as RPMs are. That is to say, good but not 
great. Package names usually make sense, and searchig the package cache 
usually finds what you want. But sometimes your search terms are too vague 
to work ... you recall recently a question here about "rec", for example. 
Trying to search the package archive for "rec" matched 100+ packages ... a 
hopeless screening task. The real lack I find is my inability to query the 
database about what package contains a particular file ... there is a way 
to do this if the package is installed on the host, but not if you want the 
app and need to find out which package contains it. (In this respect, I was 
spoiled by Slackware, which always included a complete list, easily 
grep'able, of the complete contents of of every package.)

[...]
> > You might ask yourself to what extent your problems with RH come
> > from trying to use the free version of a distro intended to make
> > money
>
>Do you mean a compromise of the distribution's integrety in order to
>capture greater market share? If so, I suspect I may be a victim of
>that with RedHat 8.0.

I wouldn't use the word "integrity" here; it's too easily subject to the 
sort of misinterpretation that starts flame wars.

One can run a profit-making business and still have integrity, and I've no 
real doubt that Red Hat is scrupulous about meeting its obligations under 
GPL and other Open Source/free software licenses. But at the same time, 
those obligations do not require RH to run a high-performance 
package-updating service for non-paying users (for example). And RH might 
include non-GPL applications in the paid versions. I wouldn't be outraged 
by such behaviors, especially by a struggling business.

I don't know if they do things like that, not being a Red Hat user. But if 
I used Red Hat, I would be sure to understand the limitations of the free 
version and any restrictions associated with the paid version.

> > I'd be *very* cautious about a "retreat" to RH 7.3, unless you can
> > satisfy yourself that it gets good security updates ... with a DSL
> > connection, you are vulnerable to attacks from the Internet pretty
> > much all the time, right?
>
>As I mentioned, I think I was subject to attack under RH7.3. Other
>than that, however, the distributions 7.1 and 7.3 proved to be was
>very solid for me. However, besides security issues, backtracking is
>likely to break things unless I do a fresh re-install. But then why
>not simply go to gentoo, Debian or Slackware?

I'm not sure what you mean by "subject to" attack. As I would use the term, 
we're all subject to attack ... that is, all of us with persistent Internet 
connections (and even many of us with dial-up connections). I assume I am 
regularly attacked here (I don't even check any more, absent symptoms of a 
system compromise), but I believe that the paranoid firewall I have 
installed guards the gates effectively.

If you meant instead that your RH 7.3 included apps with known and 
uncorrected security holes ... well, that's what I meant by needing to pay 
attention to a distro's policy and practice regarding security updates. RH 
used to have a decent service for this, even for non-paying users, but I 
don't know it survived the IPO bust. And I don't know how long they 
continue to offer security updates for non-current versions. Debian 
Unstable (which I mostly use) is excellent about security updates, and I 
think Debian Stable is as good or better.



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Re: distribution choice

[james niland]

As all posters before have been quite wholesome on
your questions,so I don't want add much more to that.

Debian seems to be a good choice, especially the
packet manager apt-get can make your life a lot easier
than rpm based distributions can.

I thought I might just mention my favourite/pet
distribtuion called Peanut-Linux as another option for
some reasons :

It comes with enlightenment preconfigured as default
wm but also has a nice choice of other wm rpms.

It still lets you change everything in config files
(or requires it) so it doesn't "dumb you down" too
much, the basic hardware detection / setup is easy
though.

The hardware detection is pretty good (it uses the
same as redhat, kudzu IIRC)

You don't have to chose any packages at install time.
It rather works by install basic set then add RPMs
later. (First rpm I get is gcc)

Drawback/Advantage ? 
Uses RPMs for packages. Which can be a pain at times,
but also enables you to use a host of packages out
there.

The Peanut community is VERY helpful, although small.
So if you want to troubleshoot more involved problems
with certain apps you might have to go to the
application's BBS.

Have a look at it on www.ibilio.org/peanut

Whatever you go for, I wish you lots of fun :D
James Niland

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Re: distribution choice

[whitnl73]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Ray Olszewski wrote:

> Probably about as informative as RPMs are. That is to say, good but not
> great. Package names usually make sense, and searchig the package cache
> usually finds what you want. But sometimes your search terms are too vague
> to work ... you recall recently a question here about "rec", for example.
> Trying to search the package archive for "rec" matched 100+ packages ... a
> hopeless screening task. The real lack I find is my inability to query the
> database about what package contains a particular file ... there is a way
> to do this if the package is installed on the host, but not if you want the
> app and need to find out which package contains it. (In this respect, I was
> spoiled by Slackware, which always included a complete list, easily
> grep'able, of the complete contents of of every package.)
>
rpm keeps a database of rpm's it has installed, which can be queried by
rpm -qf <filename>
right, I guess you said the debian package manager has an equivalent;
you can make a database of all packages with something like

rpm -qlip /where/the/rpms/are/* >rpmlist

although this is not exactly grep'able, you are better off using
 less -ni
on it, so you can scan for the filename and then back up to the -i entry
for that package which has the package name.  I guess if somebody really
cares I could come up with a way to make a grep'able rpmlist.  I bet you
could do the same with the debian package manager.

You don't _have_ to use any distro, and you can drop packages from one
distro on top of another distro, as long as you are willing to keep
track of the dependencies yourself.  that is what
rpm --nodeps <package file name>
is for, FI.

Of course, if you get the source and compile/install the package
yourself, it isn't known to any package manager...

If you want to use Wine, you do better to get the source, uninstall any
packages of it you may have, and build it yourself.  Distros that carry
it put it in different places, and you may get version problems I don't
want to debug again otherwise.

Lawson
---oops---








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Re: distribution choice

[Frank Roberts]

Hi All

Hope I am not sticking my keyboard in my mouth but here are a few thoughts on 
the latest version of the three major commercial distribution and Debian.

Redhat - seems to be focused toward servers and uniform workstations for 
corporate America. Single choice of desktop - The Bluecurve. Redhat seems to 
be headed away from the individual. 

Mandrake - seems to be more focused toward individual choice than corporate 
choice of content but be aware Mandrake appears to be a "me too" company in 
regards to coping Redhat. 

SuSE - Best distribution if you desire standard configuration and nothing 
else. If you desire non standard configuration this is not the distribution 
for you.

Debian - Can be very difficult to install if you do not have standard 
components - cards, hard drives, floppy drives, video cards, et. 
Installation of Debian should not be tried by newbies. Installation of Debian 
in a laptop is not recommend unless the installer is extremely advanced due 
to manufacturers use of non stand components.

It is recommended that one acquire the commercial box sets for the commercial 
distributions or a commercial generated CD set for Debian. For Debian try a 
company like Cheap Bites.

For Redhat, Mandrake, and SuSE it is highly recommended that the most 
expensive professional box set be acquired. The difference in cost is well 
worth the additional funds.

It is not recommend that one attempt to install, update, or replace system 
components - this does not refer to individual programs - unless one is 
extremely advanced. This especially applies to the core. 

Frank


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Re: distribution choice

[Ray Olszewski]

I'll venture to disagree with one detail of Frank's review.

At 08:30 AM 2/28/2003 -0500, Frank Roberts wrote:
[...]
>It is recommended that one acquire the commercial box sets for the commercial
>distributions or a commercial generated CD set for Debian. For Debian try a
>company like Cheap Bites.

While I cannot comment on the relative merits of the commercial box sets of 
Red Hat, Mandrake, and SuSE, I have a lot of experience with Debian 
installs, and I'm no fan of using its CD sets in normal installation 
settings (where "normal" merans that a reasonably fast and reliable 
Internet connection is available). One of Debian's relative strengths among 
distros is its on-line installer system, which assures that the latest 
versions of packages in a distro are loaded, not the ones that happened to 
be included when CheapBytes (not "Cheap Bites") burned its master CDs or DVD.

For Woody (Debian Stable, the one also called Debian 3.0, currently at 
3.0r1, December 2002), this mostly means getting the security updates; the 
price of using a Debian Stable distro is that you do not get frequent 
updates to packages for non-security reasons.

For Sid (Debian Unstable), package updates are frequent (there are new 
versions almost every day), and as far as I know, there is no CD option 
anyway (though I admit I haven't looked for Debian CDs for a long time, I 
just checked CheapBytes, and they only list 3.0 and the obsolete 2.2/Potato).

After a bit of practice, the "apt" tools used for on-line installs and 
updates ... at least in my expeirnce ... become fairly easy to use, whereas 
the "dselect" system used for managing CD files has been overwhelmed by the 
increase in size of Debian and is very cumbersome to wotk with. This is 
especially true now that Woody has gotten big enough that it ships on 8 CDs 
(from CheapBytes, for example) or a DVD (for those of use with DVD drives 
on our target systems) with CD supplements.

Regarding laptop installs -- I haven't done one in years, but my memory is 
that they are a nightmare for *any* distro, not just Debian. Laptops give 
"non-standard component" a whole new meaning. What distro do you *like* for 
user-level laptop installs (as contrasted to buying a laptop with Linux 
pre-installed)?

Oh, and one stylistic comment: despite his use of phrasings like "It is/is 
not recommended", everyone should read Frank's comments as his personal 
opinions, not a summary of a general consensus. I doubt any general 
consensus exists on these matters.



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