re: lilo questions.......

re: lilo questions.......

[neil t]

greetings and again tnx for the help---

>I copied an installation guide for Debian Woody 3.0, but it seems to be
>geared to setting up a server.  I just want regular install.  I did use it
>as a guide when I first installed Debian, and it did seem to work, but I
>did have to tweak it a bit.  (any suggestions for a better installation
>guide?)

>>>>>>Better than what? You don't tell me enough to know ahat you are using now.

It is called "Installing Woody (Debian Linux 3.0) and the url is:
wysiwyg://17/http:www.aboutdebian.com/install3.htm  (that is what I see on the pages I printed.....)

>When I installed it, I made a boot floppy and it worked ok, but was very
>slow.

>>>>>"Slow" and "fast" are in the eye of the beholder, so your telling me >>>>>this is "very slow" in your opinion doesn't let me know if you are describing the normal speed of floppy-based boots or a system with a problem.

I was describing booting from the floppy disk....

>>Getting the "lingo" down is less important then being careful about your
descriptions. For example, after noting at the beginning of this message
that you'd previously made a "typo", you continue to misname "lilo.conf"
"lilo.config" (unless Mandrake really does use a different name for this
file ... I know Debian still calls it lilo.conf). When asking for
configuration help, accurate reporting of the details is essential.

whoops!  yes it is "lilo.conf" !

Ok, so I guess if I install Debian 3.0 or even Red Hat again, it will replace my existing bootloader but I will still have the option to make Mandrake the default.  This is determined when I edit /etc/lilo.conf.

Is there a standard format for adding other linux distro's to /etc/lilo.conf?  One of replies to my question explains it this way:

"It does not really make any differance which system installed lilo, the
secret is mounting all your disks/partitions where "lilo" can reach them all in one go, you can define any partition "in use or not" as long as it is mounted.

An example;
dos = hda1
redhat = hda5
mandrake = hdc1
slackware = hdd1

You boot with mandrake, you then create some extra dirs'

mkdir /hda5
mkdir /hdc1
mkdir /hdd1

mount -t ext2 /dev/hda5 /hda5
mount -t ext2 /dev/hdd1 /hdd1

Edit /etc/lilo and reflect the above

image = image-redhat
label = redhat
root = /hda5/boot/image-redhat
read-only

same idea for slack.

run lilo with -t to check that all is ok, when all is ok /sbin/lilo
reboot

Another way is to copy all bootable images into one /boot dir and edit
lilo.conf accordingly."

I have seen some say:
image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.2.0-ide pci<<<<<< is it /boot because all bootable 
images are in /boot?
      label=Debian (example)
      read-only
      root=/dev/hdd1
Anyway....again thanks for helping me with this.....
Cheers-
Neil t.


 
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re: lilo questions.......

[Ray Olszewski]

At 02:03 PM 11/23/02 -0500, neil t wrote:
[...]
>Is there a standard format for adding other linux distro's to 
>/etc/lilo.conf?

The concept of a "distro" is meaningless to lilo (either the Linux app or 
the bootloader itself). lilo knows about kernels, boot devices, root 
filesystems, and a few other things. In practice, a kernel selection is 
enough to distinguish a distribution, usually.

A basic lilo block includes these lines --

         image=/vmlinuz
         root=/dev/hda2
                 label=Linux-2.2.18
                 read-only

The image= line tells lilo where to find the kernel that will boot. The 
location is specified relative to the root filesystem that is running, and 
lilo will pass it to the bootloader as a physical location on a physical 
hard disk. Putting kernels in a /boot partition (which can be a separate 
filesystem) is a custom, nothing more, albeit a well-established custom. 
Newer versions of lilo can boot kernels from any device the BIOS can see, 
not just from the primary IDE (or corresponding SCSI) device. But in any 
given /etc/lilo.conf, ALL kernel images need to be referenced relative to 
the root filesystem that is currently running.

This is one of the reasons why the /boot directory, done as a separate 
filesystem, becaome customary. (The other was to deal with the 
1024-cylinder problem, not only of historical interest.) If you made a smal 
partition on hda, then mounted it as /boot on EVERY distro, plus exercised 
a bit of care about kernel names, you could keep the kernels for all the 
distros you wanted to boot in the same place, simplifying updates.

The root= line tells lilo what the root (/) filesystem is for that distro. 
The usual practice in my experience is to name them following /dev 
directory entries; I am unfamiliar with the approach the other writer suggests.

The label= line tells lilo what to call in in the choices for booting 
(which appear in the "lilo gui" or on the command line if you press the 
appropriate key, I think SHIFT, before the lilo bootloader starts to boot).

The read-only line is a parameter that tells the kernel first to mount 
filesystems read-only. This allows for initial fsck of them. It is optional 
but a good idea.

Also somewhere in lilo.conf will be a boot= line, typically boot=/dev/hda . 
This line tells lilo where to install the bootloader.

In closing, please let me warn you to watch out for small errors of detail 
in what I've written here. I'm writing mostly from memory .. I don't have a 
multi-distro setup here to consult ... and my memory is not what it once was.

>One of replies to my question explains it this way:
>
>"It does not really make any differance which system installed lilo, the
>secret is mounting all your disks/partitions where "lilo" can reach them 
>all in one go, you can define any partition "in use or not" as long as it 
>is mounted.
>
>An example;
>dos = hda1
>redhat = hda5
>mandrake = hdc1
>slackware = hdd1
>
>You boot with mandrake, you then create some extra dirs'
>
>mkdir /hda5
>mkdir /hdc1
>mkdir /hdd1
>
>mount -t ext2 /dev/hda5 /hda5
>mount -t ext2 /dev/hdd1 /hdd1
>
>Edit /etc/lilo and reflect the above
>
>image = image-redhat
>label = redhat
>root = /hda5/boot/image-redhat
>read-only
>
>same idea for slack.
>
>run lilo with -t to check that all is ok, when all is ok /sbin/lilo
>reboot
>
>Another way is to copy all bootable images into one /boot dir and edit
>lilo.conf accordingly."
>
>I have seen some say:
>image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.2.0-ide pci<<<<<< is it /boot because all bootable
>images are in /boot?
>       label=Debian (example)
>       read-only
>       root=/dev/hdd1
>Anyway....again thanks for helping me with this.....




--
-------------------------------------------"Never tell me the odds!"--------
Ray Olszewski					-- Han Solo
Palo Alto, California, USA			  ray@comarre.com
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Re: lilo questions.......

[Chuck Gelm]

neil t wrote:
> 
> greetings and again tnx for the help---
> 
> >I copied an installation guide for Debian Woody 3.0, but it seems to be
> >geared to setting up a server.  I just want regular install.  I did use it
> >as a guide when I first installed Debian, and it did seem to work, but I
> >did have to tweak it a bit.  (any suggestions for a better installation
> >guide?)

Are you looking for a better Debian Woody 3.0 regular install
than the one you copied?  Which one did you copy?

> 
> >When I installed it, I made a boot floppy and it worked ok, but was very
> >slow.
> 
> >>>>>"Slow" and "fast" are in the eye of the beholder, so your telling me >>>>>this is "very slow" in your opinion doesn't let me know if you are describing the normal speed of floppy-based boots or a system with a problem.
> 
> I was describing booting from the floppy disk....
> 
> >>Getting the "lingo" down is less important then being careful about your
> descriptions. For example, after noting at the beginning of this message
> that you'd previously made a "typo", you continue to misname "lilo.conf"
> "lilo.config" (unless Mandrake really does use a different name for this
> file ... I know Debian still calls it lilo.conf). When asking for
> configuration help, accurate reporting of the details is essential.
> 
> whoops!  yes it is "lilo.conf" !

 But you never mentioned running /sbin/lilo  !!

> Ok, so I guess if I install Debian 3.0 or even Red Hat again, it will replace my existing bootloader but I will still have the option to make Mandrake the default.  This is determined when I edit /etc/lilo.conf.

 ...and run /sbin/lilo.

Debian/Red Hat/Mandrake are not boot loaders, per se.
Perhaps those three distributions use the same boot loader. (?)

You do not need to do an 'install' to change|alter a boot loader.

The issue is not from which distribution a boot loader is re-written,
it is what bootable partitions can be selected from the boot loader
when the system is next booted.  (?)

> Is there a standard format for adding other linux distro's to /etc/lilo.conf?  One of replies to my question explains it this way:
> 
> "It does not really make any differance which system installed lilo, the
> secret is mounting all your disks/partitions where "lilo" can
  reach them all in one go, you can define any partition "in use
  or not" as long as it is mounted.
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<snipped to end>
So,
 if all the partitions you want to choose to boot from are mounted,
 run /sbin/lilo.

HTH, Chuck
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Re: lilo questions.......

[neil t]

Hi Chuck--

Chuck Gelm <nc8q@gelm.net> wrote:
>Are you looking for a better Debian Woody 3.0 regular install
>than the one you copied?  Which one did you copy?

I am not sure I understand.  I had a copy of the installation procedures for Woody 3.0, it looked like to me that they were setting it up for something other then a normal, everyday type of person. This is a quote from the article..."The options we select in this procedure are more appropriate for a server system..."  I copied it from www.aboutdebian.com/install3.htm (I think that is correct)

> But you never mentioned running /sbin/lilo  !!

I have seen in other books to just run 'lilo', but I did run /sbin/lilo.

>> Ok, so I guess if I install Debian 3.0 or even Red Hat again, it will replace my existing bootloader but I will still have the option to make Mandrake the default.  This is determined when I edit /etc/lilo.conf.

> ...and run /sbin/lilo.

OK, let me see if I understand this.....I have Mandrake installed already.  
If I decide to install another distro on another partition, it will install 'lilo' and be the default system.  If I now want to add the already installed Mandrake, I will first have to (in the other distro) do this:

------------mkdir /mnt/*mandrake*
then edit:

------------/etc/lilo.conf
add below "other distro" info:

------------image=/boot/vmlinuz
      -------------label=*mandrake*
      -------------root=/dev/hda3
      -------------read-only
save and run /sbin/lilo

Is that right?....I hope....!!!
I went ahead and cleaned out the hd that contained RH 7.2 yesterday.  I installed Deb woody 3.0 (didn't set up X yet) I had the options to make the system bootable, or it says Install LILO in the MBR (I made a boot disk).  I mounted it from mandrake (as a practice) and edited /etc/lilo.conf and ran /sbin/lilo and it was added to the lilo list.  I understand that it will run from there, but not really perfect.  That is why I have the disk.  I am not sure, but is it because I copied the "kernal" there?  I know it contains important info from the installation there ie:  when I boot from floppy, wvdial works 'fb', but from lilo, I get disconnected.
Am I on the right track?  !!
I am enjoying tinkering with this stuff....kinda like building my own qrp rigs.....
72 es tnx om
Neil wa4chq

>> secret is mounting all your disks/partitions where "lilo" can
>  reach them all in one go, you can define any partition "in use
>  or not" as long as it is mounted.
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
><snipped to end>
>So,
> if all the partitions you want to choose to boot from are mounted,
> run /sbin/lilo.
>
>HTH, Chuck
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Re: lilo questions.......

[Ray Olszewski]

Your "How do  do it?" description is almost right. But details count here. 
So let me make some suggestions.

At 06:46 AM 11/25/02 -0500, neil t wrote:
[...]

>If I decide to install another distro on another partition, it will 
>install 'lilo' and be the default system.

Typically, yes. It might not (your other comments reminded me that with 
Debian, at least, you can skip this step in favor of making a boot floppy). 
And a distro *might* use a bootloader other than lilo (grub is the other 
common one) or load from a DOS partition (with syslinux, for example). But 
you are unlikely to encounter these exceptions, based on what you've been 
talking about actually doing.

>If I now want to add the already installed Mandrake, I will first have to 
>(in the other distro) do this:
>
>------------mkdir /mnt/*mandrake*

*Making* this directory is not enough; you then need to *mount* the 
appropriate filesystem on it. (And using *s in directory names is bad 
practice, BTW.)

>then edit:
>
>------------/etc/lilo.conf
>add below "other distro" info:
>
>------------image=/boot/vmlinuz
>       -------------label=*mandrake*
>       -------------root=/dev/hda3
>       -------------read-only

Not sure how the --------- bits got here, but they do not belong

I can't say whether or not the image= line is correct. You have several 
alternatives here ...

1. Use the same kernel image for all distros. This is your best choice *if* 
you compile your own kernel, but probably a poor choice if you use a 
distro's stock kernel. Even then, you need to remember to put the right 
modules in /lib/modules for *each* distro's root filesystem (or, just 
conceivably ... I've never actually seen this done ... make /lib/modules a 
separate filesytem and mount it for each distro).

2. Make a separate filesystem (probably on /dev/hda) that all distros mount 
as /boot, and put all the kernels in it. Their names need to be dsitinct, 
of course ... if I did this, I'd use names like vmlinuz-2.4.19-deb and 
vmlinuz-2.4.19-mandrake. Then use the appropriate names on the various 
image= lines.

3. Retain separate /boot diretories for each distro, and edit the lilo.conf 
you install from appropriately. For example, if you were installing lilo 
from Debian, your various entries might look like this --

         image=/mnt/mandrake/boot/vmlinuz
                 label=*mandrake*
                 root=/dev/hda3
                 read-only
         image=/boot/vmlinuz
                 label=Debian
                 root=/dev/hdb2
                 read-only

>save and run /sbin/lilo

Save /etc/lilo.conf, you mean ... yes.

>Is that right?....I hope....!!!
>I went ahead and cleaned out the hd that contained RH 7.2 yesterday.  I 
>installed Deb woody 3.0 (didn't set up X yet) I had the options to make 
>the system bootable, or it says Install LILO in the MBR (I made a boot 
>disk).  I mounted it from mandrake (as a practice) and edited 
>/etc/lilo.conf and ran /sbin/lilo and it was added to the lilo list.  I 
>understand that it will run from there, but not really perfect.  That is 
>why I have the disk.  I am not sure, but is it because I copied the 
>"kernal" there?  I know it contains important info from the installation 
>there ie:  when I boot from floppy, wvdial works 'fb', but from lilo, I 
>get disconnected

This paragraph is kind of hard to follow.

I'm unclear on what some of the references to "it" refer to.

I can't figure out where "there" is in the sentence about copying the 
kernel (not "kernal", BTW).

And "not really perfect" is not very descriptive as a trouble report.

Nor do I know what "'fb'" means in "wvdial works 'fb'" ... I can't even be 
completely sure which distro you are talking about at that point (I think 
Debian) ... but I think it odd that whether you boot Debian from floppy or 
lilo affects wvdial (unless, of course, they are either running different 
kernels or mounting different root partitions, either of which would have 
enormous potential for creating differences in the application versions, 
whether kernel modules load properly, and how the init process itself 
proceeds).


--
-------------------------------------------"Never tell me the odds!"--------
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Palo Alto, California, USA			  ray@comarre.com
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Re: lilo questions.......

[neil t]

Hey Ray-
Thanks for the reply.....
Let me see if I can explain some of the things I wrote....

Ray Olszewski <ray@comarre.com> wrote:

>*Making* this directory is not enough; you then need to *mount* the 
>appropriate filesystem on it. (And using *s in directory names is bad 
>practice, BTW.)

I was using the * as a highlight for this note

>>------------image=/boot/vmlinuz
>>       -------------label=*mandrake*
>>       -------------root=/dev/hda3
>>       -------------read-only
>
>Not sure how the --------- bits got here, but they do not belong

again using --------- as highlight, just for the note....

>2. Make a separate filesystem (probably on /dev/hda) that all distros mount 
>as /boot, and put all the kernels in it. Their names need to be dsitinct, 
>of course ... if I did this, I'd use names like vmlinuz-2.4.19-deb and 
>vmlinuz-2.4.19-mandrake. Then use the appropriate names on the various 
>image= lines.
>
>3. Retain separate /boot diretories for each distro, and edit the lilo.conf 
>you install from appropriately. For example, if you were installing lilo 
>from Debian, your various entries might look like this --
>
>         image=/mnt/mandrake/boot/vmlinuz
>                 label=*mandrake*
>                 root=/dev/hda3
>                 read-only
>         image=/boot/vmlinuz
>                 label=Debian
>                 root=/dev/hdb2
>                 read-only
#2 and #3 look interesting.  If you were doing this, which would you use?
 Are the Kernel numbers what you show in example 2 following vmlinuz?


>>it says Install LILO in the MBR 
The "it" is the  manual I copied for installing Debian Woody said this:
"The next three selections refer to setting up the system to boot up.
* Select 'Make System Bootable
* Select the default 'Install LILO in the MBR and press Enter when the "Securing LILO" message appears."

>I mounted it from mandrake...
The "it" here refers to the drive that contains Debian...hda1

>it was added to the lilo list. (this refers to Debian)
 
>>understand that it will run from there, but not really perfect.
Here I mean that by not using the boot disk for Debian and instead scrolling down to Debian when the "graphic" LILO appears I find that Debian boots but does not run the same as when I use the boot disk.
 
>>"kernal" there?  I know it contains important info from the installation 
Here about coping the Kernel is a question...I really don't know what goes  on a boot disk.  Referring to as 'Kernel' is because I don't know what to call it....

>when I boot from floppy, wvdial works 'fb', but from lilo
I bet the other fellow (the ham radio op) who has also been helping me with the LILO stuff knows what 'fb' means...!
 
>And "not really perfect" is not very descriptive as a trouble report.
Sorry, I sometimes have trouble describing things in detail.  I guess as an example I will describe something similiar when I first got involved with a simple linux that ran from dos called "Basiclinux".  I don't remember all of the details, but in the beginning some of the stuff like the mail program and pppsetup were stored on a floppy.  If I didn't use the floppy, I would have to set the mail up again, and the pppsetup too.  This probably isn't a good description, but all I know is last night if I didn't use the boot disk for Debian, I would get disconnected after entering 'wvdial'.  I have since then installed Basiclinux in its own partition on my Toshiba laptop.
I will give it (debian) a try once more without the floppy to see if the same thing happens.

Thanks for the info and help.....
Neil T.


>-------------------------------------------"Never tell me the odds!"--------
>Ray Olszewski                   -- Han Solo
>Palo Alto, California, USA            ray@comarre.com
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: lilo questions.......

[Ray Olszewski]

Replies below, in an edited version of your message.

At 06:29 PM 11/25/02 -0500, neil t wrote:
[...]
> >2. Make a separate filesystem (probably on /dev/hda) that all distros mount
> >as /boot, and put all the kernels in it. Their names need to be dsitinct,
> >of course ... if I did this, I'd use names like vmlinuz-2.4.19-deb and
> >vmlinuz-2.4.19-mandrake. Then use the appropriate names on the various
> >image= lines.
> >
> >3. Retain separate /boot diretories for each distro, and edit the lilo.conf
> >you install from appropriately. For example, if you were installing lilo
> >from Debian, your various entries might look like this --
> >
> >         image=/mnt/mandrake/boot/vmlinuz
> >                 label=*mandrake*
> >                 root=/dev/hda3
> >                 read-only
> >         image=/boot/vmlinuz
> >                 label=Debian
> >                 root=/dev/hdb2
> >                 read-only
>#2 and #3 look interesting.  If you were doing this, which would you use?

I'm not sure. Back when I actually did it, the 1024-cylinder limit still 
mattered to lilo, so I was pretty much forced to use option #2. Probably 
I'd do it that way again, if the need arose ... but I find no benefit (to 
me; I'm not commenting obliquely on your situation) in running multi-boot 
systems.

>  Are the Kernel numbers what you show in example 2 following vmlinuz?

Yes.
[...]


--
-------------------------------------------"Never tell me the odds!"--------
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Palo Alto, California, USA			  ray@comarre.com
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