* [PATCH v2 net-next 1/5] net/rds/sysctl.c: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL
2026-11-15 13:24 [PATCH v2 net-next 0/5] net/rds: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL Oleg Nesterov
@ 2026-11-15 13:25 ` Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:32 ` sashiko-bot
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 2/5] net/rds/ib_sysctl.c: " Oleg Nesterov
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Oleg Nesterov @ 2026-11-15 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Allison Henderson, Jakub Kicinski, Paolo Abeni
Cc: Joel Granados, edumazet, horms, netdev, linux-rdma
Collect all code used only when CONFIG_SYSCTL=y into a single block and
wrap it in #ifdef CONFIG_SYSCTL. rds_sysctl_init() no longer needs the
IS_ENABLED() check.
Add the corresponding init/exit stubs for the CONFIG_SYSCTL=n case.
Signed-off-by: Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>
Reviewed-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
Tested-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
---
net/rds/sysctl.c | 26 ++++++++++++++++++++------
1 file changed, 20 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)
diff --git a/net/rds/sysctl.c b/net/rds/sysctl.c
index 968d6279bbd3..47e8782b1aa3 100644
--- a/net/rds/sysctl.c
+++ b/net/rds/sysctl.c
@@ -36,11 +36,6 @@
#include "rds.h"
-static struct ctl_table_header *rds_sysctl_reg_table;
-
-static unsigned long rds_sysctl_reconnect_min = 1;
-static unsigned long rds_sysctl_reconnect_max = ~0UL;
-
unsigned long rds_sysctl_reconnect_min_jiffies;
unsigned long rds_sysctl_reconnect_max_jiffies = HZ;
@@ -49,6 +44,10 @@ unsigned int rds_sysctl_max_unacked_bytes = (16 << 20);
unsigned int rds_sysctl_ping_enable = 1;
+#ifdef CONFIG_SYSCTL
+static unsigned long rds_sysctl_reconnect_min = 1;
+static unsigned long rds_sysctl_reconnect_max = ~0UL;
+
static struct ctl_table rds_sysctl_rds_table[] = {
{
.procname = "reconnect_min_delay_ms",
@@ -91,6 +90,8 @@ static struct ctl_table rds_sysctl_rds_table[] = {
},
};
+static struct ctl_table_header *rds_sysctl_reg_table;
+
void rds_sysctl_exit(void)
{
unregister_net_sysctl_table(rds_sysctl_reg_table);
@@ -103,7 +104,20 @@ int rds_sysctl_init(void)
rds_sysctl_reg_table =
register_net_sysctl(&init_net, "net/rds", rds_sysctl_rds_table);
- if (!rds_sysctl_reg_table && IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_SYSCTL))
+ if (!rds_sysctl_reg_table)
return -ENOMEM;
return 0;
}
+
+#else
+
+int rds_sysctl_init(void)
+{
+ rds_sysctl_reconnect_min_jiffies = msecs_to_jiffies(1);
+ return 0;
+}
+
+void rds_sysctl_exit(void)
+{
+}
+#endif
--
2.55.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* [PATCH v2 net-next 2/5] net/rds/ib_sysctl.c: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL
2026-11-15 13:24 [PATCH v2 net-next 0/5] net/rds: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 1/5] net/rds/sysctl.c: " Oleg Nesterov
@ 2026-11-15 13:25 ` Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:32 ` sashiko-bot
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 3/5] net/rds/tcp.c: introduce rds_tcp_{init,exit}_net_sysctl() helpers Oleg Nesterov
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Oleg Nesterov @ 2026-11-15 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Allison Henderson, Jakub Kicinski, Paolo Abeni
Cc: Joel Granados, edumazet, horms, netdev, linux-rdma
Collect all code used only when CONFIG_SYSCTL=y into a single block and
wrap it in #ifdef CONFIG_SYSCTL. rds_ib_sysctl_init() no longer needs the
IS_ENABLED() check.
Add the corresponding init/exit stubs for the CONFIG_SYSCTL=n case.
Signed-off-by: Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>
Reviewed-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
Tested-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
---
net/rds/ib_sysctl.c | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++----------
1 file changed, 23 insertions(+), 10 deletions(-)
diff --git a/net/rds/ib_sysctl.c b/net/rds/ib_sysctl.c
index bc97a3eecad6..0b336ff03ae9 100644
--- a/net/rds/ib_sysctl.c
+++ b/net/rds/ib_sysctl.c
@@ -36,19 +36,10 @@
#include "ib.h"
-static struct ctl_table_header *rds_ib_sysctl_hdr;
-
unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_send_wr = RDS_IB_DEFAULT_SEND_WR;
unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_recv_wr = RDS_IB_DEFAULT_RECV_WR;
unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_recv_allocation = (128 * 1024 * 1024) / RDS_FRAG_SIZE;
-static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_wr_min = 1;
-/* hardware will fail CQ creation long before this */
-static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_wr_max = (u32)~0;
-
unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_unsig_wrs = 16;
-static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_unsig_wr_min = 1;
-static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_unsig_wr_max = 64;
-
/*
* This sysctl does nothing.
*
@@ -61,6 +52,14 @@ static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_unsig_wr_max = 64;
*/
unsigned int rds_ib_sysctl_flow_control = 0;
+#ifdef CONFIG_SYSCTL
+static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_wr_min = 1;
+/* hardware will fail CQ creation long before this */
+static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_wr_max = (u32)~0;
+
+static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_unsig_wr_min = 1;
+static unsigned long rds_ib_sysctl_max_unsig_wr_max = 64;
+
static struct ctl_table rds_ib_sysctl_table[] = {
{
.procname = "max_send_wr",
@@ -105,6 +104,8 @@ static struct ctl_table rds_ib_sysctl_table[] = {
},
};
+static struct ctl_table_header *rds_ib_sysctl_hdr;
+
void rds_ib_sysctl_exit(void)
{
if (rds_ib_sysctl_hdr)
@@ -114,7 +115,19 @@ void rds_ib_sysctl_exit(void)
int rds_ib_sysctl_init(void)
{
rds_ib_sysctl_hdr = register_net_sysctl(&init_net, "net/rds/ib", rds_ib_sysctl_table);
- if (!rds_ib_sysctl_hdr && IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_SYSCTL))
+ if (!rds_ib_sysctl_hdr)
return -ENOMEM;
return 0;
}
+
+#else
+
+int rds_ib_sysctl_init(void)
+{
+ return 0;
+}
+
+void rds_ib_sysctl_exit(void)
+{
+}
+#endif
--
2.55.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* [PATCH v2 net-next 3/5] net/rds/tcp.c: introduce rds_tcp_{init,exit}_net_sysctl() helpers
2026-11-15 13:24 [PATCH v2 net-next 0/5] net/rds: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 1/5] net/rds/sysctl.c: " Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 2/5] net/rds/ib_sysctl.c: " Oleg Nesterov
@ 2026-11-15 13:25 ` Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:32 ` sashiko-bot
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 4/5] net/rds/tcp.c: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 5/5] net/rds: remove dead sysctl declarations Oleg Nesterov
4 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Oleg Nesterov @ 2026-11-15 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Allison Henderson, Jakub Kicinski, Paolo Abeni
Cc: Joel Granados, edumazet, horms, netdev, linux-rdma
Preparation to simplify the next change.
Extract the net namespace sysctl registration and unregistration logic
from rds_tcp_init_net() and rds_tcp_exit_net() into new helpers.
This also simplifies the error paths in rds_tcp_init_net(); it can use
rds_tcp_exit_net_sysctl() too.
Signed-off-by: Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>
Reviewed-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
Tested-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
---
net/rds/tcp.c | 93 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-----------------------
1 file changed, 52 insertions(+), 41 deletions(-)
diff --git a/net/rds/tcp.c b/net/rds/tcp.c
index c1ad37505417..d6c542371611 100644
--- a/net/rds/tcp.c
+++ b/net/rds/tcp.c
@@ -82,6 +82,52 @@ static struct ctl_table rds_tcp_sysctl_table[] = {
},
};
+static __net_init int rds_tcp_init_net_sysctl(struct net *net)
+{
+ struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = net_generic(net, rds_tcp_netid);
+ struct ctl_table *tbl;
+
+ /* {snd, rcv}buf_size default to 0, which implies we let the
+ * stack pick the value, and permit auto-tuning of buffer size.
+ */
+ if (net == &init_net) {
+ tbl = rds_tcp_sysctl_table;
+ } else {
+ tbl = kmemdup(rds_tcp_sysctl_table,
+ sizeof(rds_tcp_sysctl_table), GFP_KERNEL);
+ if (!tbl) {
+ pr_warn("could not allocate sysctl table\n");
+ return -ENOMEM;
+ }
+ rtn->ctl_table = tbl;
+ }
+ tbl[RDS_TCP_SNDBUF].data = &rtn->sndbuf_size;
+ tbl[RDS_TCP_RCVBUF].data = &rtn->rcvbuf_size;
+ rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl = register_net_sysctl_sz(net, "net/rds/tcp", tbl,
+ ARRAY_SIZE(rds_tcp_sysctl_table));
+ if (!rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl && IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_SYSCTL)) {
+ pr_warn("could not register sysctl\n");
+ if (net != &init_net)
+ kfree(tbl);
+ return -ENOMEM;
+ }
+
+ return 0;
+}
+
+static void __net_exit rds_tcp_exit_net_sysctl(struct net *net)
+{
+ struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = net_generic(net, rds_tcp_netid);
+
+ if (rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl) {
+ unregister_net_sysctl_table(rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl);
+ rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl = NULL;
+ }
+
+ if (net != &init_net)
+ kfree(rtn->ctl_table);
+}
+
u32 rds_tcp_write_seq(struct rds_tcp_connection *tc)
{
/* seq# of the last byte of data in tcp send buffer */
@@ -612,36 +658,15 @@ void rds_tcp_accept_work(struct rds_tcp_net *rtn)
static __net_init int rds_tcp_init_net(struct net *net)
{
struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = net_generic(net, rds_tcp_netid);
- struct ctl_table *tbl;
int err = 0;
memset(rtn, 0, sizeof(*rtn));
mutex_init(&rtn->rds_tcp_accept_lock);
- /* {snd, rcv}buf_size default to 0, which implies we let the
- * stack pick the value, and permit auto-tuning of buffer size.
- */
- if (net == &init_net) {
- tbl = rds_tcp_sysctl_table;
- } else {
- tbl = kmemdup(rds_tcp_sysctl_table,
- sizeof(rds_tcp_sysctl_table), GFP_KERNEL);
- if (!tbl) {
- pr_warn("could not set allocate sysctl table\n");
- return -ENOMEM;
- }
- rtn->ctl_table = tbl;
- }
- tbl[RDS_TCP_SNDBUF].data = &rtn->sndbuf_size;
- tbl[RDS_TCP_RCVBUF].data = &rtn->rcvbuf_size;
- rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl = register_net_sysctl_sz(net, "net/rds/tcp", tbl,
- ARRAY_SIZE(rds_tcp_sysctl_table));
- if (!rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl && IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_SYSCTL)) {
- pr_warn("could not register sysctl\n");
- err = -ENOMEM;
- goto fail;
- }
+ err = rds_tcp_init_net_sysctl(net);
+ if (err)
+ return err;
#if IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_IPV6)
rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock = rds_tcp_listen_init(net, true);
@@ -656,21 +681,14 @@ static __net_init int rds_tcp_init_net(struct net *net)
rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock = rds_tcp_listen_init(net, false);
if (!rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock) {
#endif
- unregister_net_sysctl_table(rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl);
- rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl = NULL;
- err = -EAFNOSUPPORT;
- goto fail;
+ rds_tcp_exit_net_sysctl(net);
+ return -EAFNOSUPPORT;
#if IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_IPV6)
}
#endif
}
INIT_WORK(&rtn->rds_tcp_accept_w, rds_tcp_accept_worker);
return 0;
-
-fail:
- if (net != &init_net)
- kfree(tbl);
- return err;
}
static void rds_tcp_kill_sock(struct net *net)
@@ -704,14 +722,7 @@ static void rds_tcp_kill_sock(struct net *net)
static void __net_exit rds_tcp_exit_net(struct net *net)
{
- struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = net_generic(net, rds_tcp_netid);
-
- if (rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl)
- unregister_net_sysctl_table(rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl);
-
- if (net != &init_net)
- kfree(rtn->ctl_table);
-
+ rds_tcp_exit_net_sysctl(net);
rds_tcp_kill_sock(net);
}
--
2.55.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* [PATCH v2 net-next 4/5] net/rds/tcp.c: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL
2026-11-15 13:24 [PATCH v2 net-next 0/5] net/rds: move sysctl-only code under CONFIG_SYSCTL Oleg Nesterov
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 3/5] net/rds/tcp.c: introduce rds_tcp_{init,exit}_net_sysctl() helpers Oleg Nesterov
@ 2026-11-15 13:25 ` Oleg Nesterov
2026-11-15 13:32 ` sashiko-bot
2026-11-15 13:25 ` [PATCH v2 net-next 5/5] net/rds: remove dead sysctl declarations Oleg Nesterov
4 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Oleg Nesterov @ 2026-11-15 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Allison Henderson, Jakub Kicinski, Paolo Abeni
Cc: Joel Granados, edumazet, horms, netdev, linux-rdma
Collect all code used only when CONFIG_SYSCTL=y into a single block and
wrap it in #ifdef CONFIG_SYSCTL. rds_tcp_init_net_sysctl no longer needs
the IS_ENABLED() check.
Add the corresponding init/exit stubs for the CONFIG_SYSCTL=n case.
Also #ifdef the rds_tcp_sysctl and ctl_table fields in struct rds_tcp_net.
Signed-off-by: Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>
Reviewed-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
Tested-by: Allison Henderson <achender@kernel.org>
---
net/rds/tcp.c | 139 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++------------------------
net/rds/tcp.h | 2 +
2 files changed, 74 insertions(+), 67 deletions(-)
diff --git a/net/rds/tcp.c b/net/rds/tcp.c
index d6c542371611..9f18c4f4a406 100644
--- a/net/rds/tcp.c
+++ b/net/rds/tcp.c
@@ -53,13 +53,71 @@ static atomic_t rds_tcp_unloading = ATOMIC_INIT(0);
static struct kmem_cache *rds_tcp_conn_slab;
+#ifdef CONFIG_SYSCTL
+static int rds_tcp_min_sndbuf = SOCK_MIN_SNDBUF;
+static int rds_tcp_min_rcvbuf = SOCK_MIN_RCVBUF;
+
+/* when sysctl is used to modify some kernel socket parameters,this
+ * function resets the RDS connections in that netns so that we can
+ * restart with new parameters. The assumption is that such reset
+ * events are few and far-between.
+ */
+static void rds_tcp_sysctl_reset(struct net *net)
+{
+ struct rds_tcp_connection *tc, *_tc;
+
+ spin_lock_irq(&rds_tcp_conn_lock);
+ list_for_each_entry_safe(tc, _tc, &rds_tcp_conn_list, t_tcp_node) {
+ struct net *c_net = read_pnet(&tc->t_cpath->cp_conn->c_net);
+
+ if (net != c_net || !tc->t_sock)
+ continue;
+
+ /* reconnect with new parameters */
+ rds_conn_path_drop(tc->t_cpath, false);
+ }
+ spin_unlock_irq(&rds_tcp_conn_lock);
+}
+
+static int rds_tcp_skbuf_handler(struct rds_tcp_net *rtn,
+ const struct ctl_table *ctl, int write,
+ void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos)
+{
+ int err;
+
+ err = proc_dointvec_minmax(ctl, write, buffer, lenp, fpos);
+ if (err < 0) {
+ pr_warn("Invalid input. Must be >= %d\n",
+ *(int *)(ctl->extra1));
+ return err;
+ }
+
+ if (write && rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock && rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock->sk) {
+ struct net *net = sock_net(rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock->sk);
+
+ rds_tcp_sysctl_reset(net);
+ }
+
+ return 0;
+}
+
static int rds_tcp_sndbuf_handler(const struct ctl_table *ctl, int write,
- void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos);
+ void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos)
+{
+ struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = container_of(ctl->data, struct rds_tcp_net,
+ sndbuf_size);
+
+ return rds_tcp_skbuf_handler(rtn, ctl, write, buffer, lenp, fpos);
+}
+
static int rds_tcp_rcvbuf_handler(const struct ctl_table *ctl, int write,
- void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos);
+ void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos)
+{
+ struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = container_of(ctl->data, struct rds_tcp_net,
+ rcvbuf_size);
-static int rds_tcp_min_sndbuf = SOCK_MIN_SNDBUF;
-static int rds_tcp_min_rcvbuf = SOCK_MIN_RCVBUF;
+ return rds_tcp_skbuf_handler(rtn, ctl, write, buffer, lenp, fpos);
+}
static struct ctl_table rds_tcp_sysctl_table[] = {
#define RDS_TCP_SNDBUF 0
@@ -105,7 +163,7 @@ static __net_init int rds_tcp_init_net_sysctl(struct net *net)
tbl[RDS_TCP_RCVBUF].data = &rtn->rcvbuf_size;
rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl = register_net_sysctl_sz(net, "net/rds/tcp", tbl,
ARRAY_SIZE(rds_tcp_sysctl_table));
- if (!rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl && IS_ENABLED(CONFIG_SYSCTL)) {
+ if (!rtn->rds_tcp_sysctl) {
pr_warn("could not register sysctl\n");
if (net != &init_net)
kfree(tbl);
@@ -127,6 +185,15 @@ static void __net_exit rds_tcp_exit_net_sysctl(struct net *net)
if (net != &init_net)
kfree(rtn->ctl_table);
}
+#else
+static inline int rds_tcp_init_net_sysctl(struct net *net)
+{
+ return 0;
+}
+static inline void rds_tcp_exit_net_sysctl(struct net *net)
+{
+}
+#endif
u32 rds_tcp_write_seq(struct rds_tcp_connection *tc)
{
@@ -744,68 +811,6 @@ void *rds_tcp_listen_sock_def_readable(struct net *net)
return lsock->sk->sk_user_data;
}
-/* when sysctl is used to modify some kernel socket parameters,this
- * function resets the RDS connections in that netns so that we can
- * restart with new parameters. The assumption is that such reset
- * events are few and far-between.
- */
-static void rds_tcp_sysctl_reset(struct net *net)
-{
- struct rds_tcp_connection *tc, *_tc;
-
- spin_lock_irq(&rds_tcp_conn_lock);
- list_for_each_entry_safe(tc, _tc, &rds_tcp_conn_list, t_tcp_node) {
- struct net *c_net = read_pnet(&tc->t_cpath->cp_conn->c_net);
-
- if (net != c_net || !tc->t_sock)
- continue;
-
- /* reconnect with new parameters */
- rds_conn_path_drop(tc->t_cpath, false);
- }
- spin_unlock_irq(&rds_tcp_conn_lock);
-}
-
-static int rds_tcp_skbuf_handler(struct rds_tcp_net *rtn,
- const struct ctl_table *ctl, int write,
- void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos)
-{
- int err;
-
- err = proc_dointvec_minmax(ctl, write, buffer, lenp, fpos);
- if (err < 0) {
- pr_warn("Invalid input. Must be >= %d\n",
- *(int *)(ctl->extra1));
- return err;
- }
-
- if (write && rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock && rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock->sk) {
- struct net *net = sock_net(rtn->rds_tcp_listen_sock->sk);
-
- rds_tcp_sysctl_reset(net);
- }
-
- return 0;
-}
-
-static int rds_tcp_sndbuf_handler(const struct ctl_table *ctl, int write,
- void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos)
-{
- struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = container_of(ctl->data, struct rds_tcp_net,
- sndbuf_size);
-
- return rds_tcp_skbuf_handler(rtn, ctl, write, buffer, lenp, fpos);
-}
-
-static int rds_tcp_rcvbuf_handler(const struct ctl_table *ctl, int write,
- void *buffer, size_t *lenp, loff_t *fpos)
-{
- struct rds_tcp_net *rtn = container_of(ctl->data, struct rds_tcp_net,
- rcvbuf_size);
-
- return rds_tcp_skbuf_handler(rtn, ctl, write, buffer, lenp, fpos);
-}
-
static void rds_tcp_exit(void)
{
rds_tcp_set_unloading();
diff --git a/net/rds/tcp.h b/net/rds/tcp.h
index 39c86347188c..12b58d76c089 100644
--- a/net/rds/tcp.h
+++ b/net/rds/tcp.h
@@ -13,8 +13,10 @@ struct rds_tcp_net {
struct socket *rds_tcp_listen_sock;
struct socket *rds_tcp_accepted_sock;
struct work_struct rds_tcp_accept_w;
+#ifdef CONFIG_SYSCTL
struct ctl_table_header *rds_tcp_sysctl;
const struct ctl_table *ctl_table;
+#endif
int sndbuf_size;
int rcvbuf_size;
};
--
2.55.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread