Kernel list rejecting my email

Kernel list rejecting my email

[Marc Perkel]

I can't seem to email the list. What's up with this?

   SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL
FROM:<marc@perkel.com> SIZE=1681:
    host vger.kernel.org [209.132.176.167]: 553 5.7.1
Hello [69.50.231.8], for your MAIL FROM address
<marc@perkel.com> policy analysis reported:
    Your address is not liked source for email




 
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Re: Kernel list rejecting my email

[David Miller]

From: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:58:54 -0800 (PST)

> I can't seem to email the list. What's up with this?
> 
>    SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL
> FROM:<marc@perkel.com> SIZE=1681:
>     host vger.kernel.org [209.132.176.167]: 553 5.7.1
> Hello [69.50.231.8], for your MAIL FROM address
> <marc@perkel.com> policy analysis reported:
>     Your address is not liked source for email

I banned you from the site entirely because your email
address keeps bouncing from time to time, repeatedly,
and instead of contacting us and asking why you just
blindly resubscribe.

I figured that blocking you entirely would get your
attention and finally make you try to contact us.

The most recent reason I had to delete you from the
list was:

1163127092 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel Has bogus block on horms@verge.net.au

Every posting made by Simon gets blocked by your site.

Previously the reason was:

1155683148 davem perkel.com linux-kernel blocks the string 'patches', what a joke

And before that I was seeing:

1136501663 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel 421 Lost incoming connection: The error was detected in line 3.

You really need to fixup your email setup before I will allow
you to resubscribe.

Re: Kernel list rejecting my email

[Oleg Verych]

On 2006-11-14, David Miller wrote:
[]
> I banned you from the site entirely because your email
> address keeps bouncing from time to time, repeatedly,
> and instead of contacting us and asking why you just
> blindly resubscribe.
>
> I figured that blocking you entirely would get your
> attention and finally make you try to contact us.
[]

Would you like, David, explain why my messages sometimes go to /dev/null?
Last one was <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.test/3360>, while
previous message with same headers and e-mail was ok. And this
was dropped even via gmane.org nntp posting, as well as with lkml in cc.

Thanks.

While using gmane.org news is very nice to read, i have problems with
adding lkml in cc list, when i post. That is because gmane is replacing
"newsgroup" header with "To" one, and my news user agent is replacing "Cc"
with "To", and not add lkml to it, when sending copies my e-mail.
So, i add "Mail-Followup-To", "Reply-to" is taboo on vger.kernel.org,
and former is not supported by popular MUAs ;\

Maybe a should hack my news client to do some magic with this, don't
know yet.
____

Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[Marc Perkel]

So you are banning me from the list because my server
returned a 421 temporary error? You have to be out of
your fucking mind!

1136501663 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel 421
Lost incoming connection: The error was detected in
line 3.

--- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote:

> From: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:58:54 -0800 (PST)
> 
> > I can't seem to email the list. What's up with
> this?
> > 
> >    SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL
> > FROM:<marc@perkel.com> SIZE=1681:
> >     host vger.kernel.org [209.132.176.167]: 553
> 5.7.1
> > Hello [69.50.231.8], for your MAIL FROM address
> > <marc@perkel.com> policy analysis reported:
> >     Your address is not liked source for email
> 
> I banned you from the site entirely because your
> email
> address keeps bouncing from time to time,
> repeatedly,
> and instead of contacting us and asking why you just
> blindly resubscribe.
> 
> I figured that blocking you entirely would get your
> attention and finally make you try to contact us.
> 
> The most recent reason I had to delete you from the
> list was:
> 
> 1163127092 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel Has
> bogus block on horms@verge.net.au
> 
> Every posting made by Simon gets blocked by your
> site.
> 
> Previously the reason was:
> 
> 1155683148 davem perkel.com linux-kernel blocks the
> string 'patches', what a joke
> 
> And before that I was seeing:
> 
> 1136501663 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel 421
> Lost incoming connection: The error was detected in
> line 3.
> 
> You really need to fixup your email setup before I
> will allow
> you to resubscribe.
> 



 
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Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[David Miller]

From: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:54:25 -0800 (PST)

> So you are banning me from the list because my server
> returned a 421 temporary error? You have to be out of
> your fucking mind!
> 
> 1136501663 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel 421
> Lost incoming connection: The error was detected in
> line 3.

Your site was generating 500 errors too.

But that's not the reason I banned you.

The reason I banned you, and I apply this rule consistently, is that
you ignored when you were removed from the list.  Instead of
contacting the postmaster and asking why, you just blindly
resubscribed yourself again.

When we remove you, we do it because your email address really is
bouncing.

One should always contact the postmaster for more information when
they are unsubscribed from the mailing list.

Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[Marc Perkel]

--- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote:

> From: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:54:25 -0800 (PST)
> 
> > So you are banning me from the list because my
> server
> > returned a 421 temporary error? You have to be out
> of
> > your fucking mind!
> > 
> > 1136501663 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel 421
> > Lost incoming connection: The error was detected
> in
> > line 3.
> 
> Your site was generating 500 errors too.
> 
> But that's not the reason I banned you.
> 
> The reason I banned you, and I apply this rule
> consistently, is that
> you ignored when you were removed from the list. 
> Instead of
> contacting the postmaster and asking why, you just
> blindly
> resubscribed yourself again.
> 
> When we remove you, we do it because your email
> address really is
> bouncing.
> 
> One should always contact the postmaster for more
> information when
> they are unsubscribed from the mailing list.
> 

So what? Yes sometimes the spam coming through this
list triggers a bounce. So what? What is an occasional
bounce message a problem for you? Why don't you just
ignore a few bounces? The list seems to be far more
tollerant of spam than it is if a message bounces
every now and then.

majordomo is an ancient piece of software. I don't
understand why this list doesn't use a more modern
platform like Mailman that automatically deal with
bounce processing. It tracks bounces and it can tell
if a message is a fluke bounce or if an email address
it permanently down. For some reason you are making a
huge deal over nothing. You act as if a bounce is a
crime.



 
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Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[David Miller]

From: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:12:56 -0800 (PST)

> So what? Yes sometimes the spam coming through this
> list triggers a bounce. So what?

I verified each and every time that I removed you (at least 6 or 7
seperate occaisions) that your site was bouncing repeatedly for
completely normal postings, not spam.

And I don't remove when you bounce "once", I do it when your address
generates a series of bounces that doesn't look like it will end any
time soon.

You've had to resubscribe multiple times, at what point would it have
occured you to ask postmaster here what the problem was so that you
could go ahead and correct it?

Your address caused problems on a continual and repeated basis.
We're not talking about isolated bounces.

Anyways, all of this talk is about you defending yourself.  There has
been no talk so far of correcting the problem, what you're going to do
in the future to prevent this from reoccuring so that I can remove the
block of your email address.

And a maybe even a nice little "sorry about that".

Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[Marc Perkel]

--- David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote:

> From: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:12:56 -0800 (PST)
> 
> > So what? Yes sometimes the spam coming through
> this
> > list triggers a bounce. So what?
> 
> I verified each and every time that I removed you
> (at least 6 or 7
> seperate occaisions) that your site was bouncing
> repeatedly for
> completely normal postings, not spam.
> 
> And I don't remove when you bounce "once", I do it
> when your address
> generates a series of bounces that doesn't look like
> it will end any
> time soon.
> 
> You've had to resubscribe multiple times, at what
> point would it have
> occured you to ask postmaster here what the problem
> was so that you
> could go ahead and correct it?
> 
> Your address caused problems on a continual and
> repeated basis.
> We're not talking about isolated bounces.
> 
> Anyways, all of this talk is about you defending
> yourself.  There has
> been no talk so far of correcting the problem, what
> you're going to do
> in the future to prevent this from reoccuring so
> that I can remove the
> block of your email address.
> 
> And a maybe even a nice little "sorry about that".
> 


If anyone should be sorry it should be you for taking
me off the list in the first place. Why are you
removing users every time a message bounces? That's
extremely abnormal. I am part of a lot of lists and I
have never seen anyone delete people based on a
trivial number of bounces. Especially on a list that
has as uch spam as this list does. 

I bounce some messages - so what? 

The problem is that if this list kicks people off
wrongly them the fault is with the list configuration.
What you should be doing is fixing the list and not
kicking people off the list.



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com

Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[David Miller]

From: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:54:36 -0800 (PST)

> If anyone should be sorry it should be you for taking
> me off the list in the first place. Why are you
> removing users every time a message bounces? That's
> extremely abnormal.

First, you didn't read my email.  It wasn't "every bounce", it was
every time your site generated a significant number of bounces all at
once without "any sign of it ending any time soon."

I've been doing this for more than 12 years, I know the difference
between a bounce in response to SPAM and a bounce due to a site or
email address being non-functional or busted.

Feel free to keep defending yourself and ignoring what I have to say
and I'll feel free to keep you on the ban list.

When you run your own mailing lists, you can use whatever mailing list
software you want and enforce whatever policies you want.

Al Viro has weighed in on this topic before, perhaps he can give you a
little bit insight on of his opinion on this matter which is shared
by a large number of other linux-kernel users as well.

Re: Majordomo is an obsolete piece of junk and Kernel should not be running it!

[Al Viro]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 08:23:35PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote:
 
> This is the only list I get booted from so that makes
> me think the problem is with the list and not with me.
> It seems that you are also using 12 year old software
> as well.  Why not get something modern like Mailman
> like most other lists use and then you don't have to
> be watching the bounces? 
> 
> The problem is that you are running Majordomo which in
> it's day was great, but is day has passed. 

Feel free to start your own maillist.  And do whatever the bleeding
fsck you want to do there.
 
> The bottom line is that you keep booting me off for
> minor problems.

Such as being an obnoxious luser?

> I would think that you should fix it.

FWIW, so do I - and I'm amazed by the mildness of corrective
measures taken so far.

-- 
What Would Simon Do?

Re: Majordomo is an obsolete piece of junk and Kernel should not be running it!

[David Miller]

From: Al Viro <viro@ftp.linux.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 05:41:24 +0000

> On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 08:23:35PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote:
>  
> > The bottom line is that you keep booting me off for
> > minor problems.
> 
> Such as being an obnoxious luser?

And now Marc has just successfully gotten Zack Brown also unsubscribed
and on the ban list at vger.kernel.org too.  I just got a few
screenfulls of the following.  Every linux-kernel posting is
generating this bounce.

------------------------------

Subject: Mail delivery failed : returning message to sender
From:	Mail Delivery System <Mailer-Daemon@bigdog.ctyme.com>
To:	linux-kernel-owner+zbrown=40tumblerings.org-S966586AbWKOFdm@vger.kernel.org
Date:	Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:45:01 -0800
Auto-Submitted:	auto-replied
X-Mew: tab/spc characters on Subject: are simplified.

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software at Junk Email Filter dot com. If this email was rejected in error, please let us know.

The message from Trond Myklebust <Trond.Myklebust@netapp.com> was rejected by server bigdog.ctyme.com on Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:45:01 -0800

A message that you sent could not be delivered to all of its recipients.

The following address(es) failed:

  marc-kernel@perkel.com
    (generated from zbrown@tumblerings.org)
    Unrouteable address

Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[Matti Aarnio]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 04:54:25PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote:
> 
> So you are banning me from the list because my server
> returned a 421 temporary error? You have to be out of
> your fucking mind!
>
> 1136501663 davem marc@perkel.com linux-kernel 421 Lost incoming connection: The error was detected in line 3.

Messages start to BOUNCE with that only after the condition
has been active for 5 consequtive days.
(Standards define 3 days queue wait time minimum.)

If your email server has a temporary glitch and it does
decide to report to remotes that "421 I am broken, try latter"
that is fine AS LONG AS it gets fixed within 3 days.

If the condition persists for 5 days, we do remove all
subscribers at given domain AND the accumulated queue
to them without any further messages to anybody.
(They are not receiving the messages, so there is no way to
notify them in forecastable future.)

Do you have any idea of how many messages are in the queue
at that time directed to recipients not receiving them ?
Depending on the week: 1300 - 2000 !

  /Matti Aarnio  -- one of  <postmaster at vger.kernel.org>

Re: Majordomo is an obsolete piece of junk and Kernel should not be running it!

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Nov 14 2006 21:50, David Miller wrote:
>
>The following address(es) failed:
>
>  marc-kernel@perkel.com
>    (generated from zbrown@tumblerings.org)
>    Unrouteable address

Can't we just agree that perkel.com's MX is fubared:

12:04 ichi:../packages/SPECS > telnet mx.junkemailfilter.com. 25
Trying 69.50.231.5...
(wait and wait and wait)


	-`J'
-- 

Re: Majordomo is an obsolete piece of junk and Kernel should not be running it!

[Matti Aarnio]

On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 05:41:24AM +0000, Al Viro wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 08:23:35PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote:
>  
> > This is the only list I get booted from so that makes
> > me think the problem is with the list and not with me.
> > It seems that you are also using 12 year old software
> > as well.  Why not get something modern like Mailman
> > like most other lists use and then you don't have to
> > be watching the bounces? 

More like 20 years old..

With mailman handling the bounces..  Leaked in spams will
cause subscribers to be dropped right and left, and far
sooner than after 5 days of persistent non-delivery...

> > The problem is that you are running Majordomo which in
> > it's day was great, but is day has passed. 

I really have not seen anything better than Majordomo 1.9x.
There are lots of eye-candy and web-candy thingies out there,
but principal task of adding/removing subscribers on list
dataset and delivering messages to those are still the things
that define list management.

With this Majordomo we can define lists that permit incoming
posting only from subscribers, we can even define poster address
datasets that are not subscribers!  However for most of our lists
we have chosen to run "posting is open, subject to silent filtering".

Most new beasts want to make email delivery themselves (act as
an MTA) instead of delegating it to an MTA in form which really
is high performance.  I did that integration some 10 years ago,
and we haven't had a need to look back.

One incoming-to-list message goes thru Majordomo processing, and
is given out as ONE message to MTA for delivery to 4000+ recipients.
We would need to lot bigger server (-farm) to handle things in
ways that those "send unique message to everybody" piece of junk
list-softwares do it.

  /Matti Aarnio  --  one of <postmaster at vger.kernel.org>

Re: Majordomo is an obsolete piece of junk and Kernel should not be running it!

[Ross Vandegrift]

On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 01:10:49PM +0200, Matti Aarnio wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 08:23:35PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote:
> >  
> > > This is the only list I get booted from so that makes
> > > me think the problem is with the list and not with me.
> > > It seems that you are also using 12 year old software
> > > as well.  Why not get something modern like Mailman
> > > like most other lists use and then you don't have to
> > > be watching the bounces? 
> 
> More like 20 years old..
> 
> With mailman handling the bounces..  Leaked in spams will
> cause subscribers to be dropped right and left, and far
> sooner than after 5 days of persistent non-delivery...

The Mailman suggestion was obviously made by someone that's never
managed a list of any substantial size.  Mailman might have lots of
fancy bounce processing stuff, but man, it loves to burn CPU all day
and night working it.

I was once burdened with limping a huge mailman installation along
while the list was moved to a service that was a bit more up to
handling the task.  The list was an announce only list for some
celebrity with about 500,000 subscribers.  Mailman's bounce processing
happily burned all the CPU that might've gone to actually doing mail
delivery.  Messages took weeks to deliver.

While I'm sure that lkml doesn't attract as much crap recipients as a
famous person's announcement, I'm sure it has plenty.  I was so happy
when that list went away...

-- 
Ross Vandegrift
ross@kallisti.us

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
	--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

Re: Majordomo is an obsolete piece of junk and Kernel should not be running it!

[Gerhard Mack]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006, Al Viro wrote:

> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 05:41:24 +0000
> From: Al Viro <viro@ftp.linux.org.uk>
> To: Marc Perkel <mperkel@yahoo.com>
> Cc: David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Majordomo is an obsolete piece of junk and Kernel should not be
>     running it!
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 08:23:35PM -0800, Marc Perkel wrote:
>  
> > This is the only list I get booted from so that makes
> > me think the problem is with the list and not with me.
> > It seems that you are also using 12 year old software
> > as well.  Why not get something modern like Mailman
> > like most other lists use and then you don't have to
> > be watching the bounces? 
> > 
> > The problem is that you are running Majordomo which in
> > it's day was great, but is day has passed. 
> 
> Feel free to start your own maillist.  And do whatever the bleeding
> fsck you want to do there.
>  
> > The bottom line is that you keep booting me off for
> > minor problems.
> 
> Such as being an obnoxious luser?
> 
> > I would think that you should fix it.
> 
> FWIW, so do I - and I'm amazed by the mildness of corrective
> measures taken so far.
> 

I'd just like to point out how very broken your mail server has to be 
before ending up dropped from the list.  I've been dropped three times 
that I can think of off the top of my head.  Two were multi day outages of 
my mail server and one was a serious misconfig that caused everything to 
bounce for sereral hours.

Someone needs to suck it up and fix his mail server.

	Gerhard



--
Gerhard Mack

gmack@innerfire.net

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

Re: Kernel list rejecting my email - braindead list

[David Miller]

From: Tobias Diedrich <ranma@tdiedrich.de>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:31:51 +0100

> David Miller wrote:
> 
> > One should always contact the postmaster for more information when
> > they are unsubscribed from the mailing list.
> 
> What about when I knew I was bouncing due to a misconfig,
> expected to be dropped from linux-kernel and resubscribed since the
> setup was fixed?

If you know things were buster, and exactly how, it's fine
to just fix things and resubscribe.

But if you can't figure out why, you should ask.

Thanks!