From: Joerg Schilling <schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
To: schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de, mj@ucw.cz
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kernel@wildsau.enemy.org,
diablod3@gmail.com
Subject: Re: PATCH: cdrecord: avoiding scsi device numbering for ide devices
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:38:14 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <4124AD46.nail80H216HKB@burner> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20040819131026.GA9813@ucw.cz>
>From: Martin Mares <mj@ucw.cz>
>> Your statement "it may be now moved to non-free in Debian in the near future"
>> is just complete nonsense. Of course, I am in discussions with Debian people
>> about the best method to force SuSE not to publish broken versions of cdrtools
>> in the future.
>Hmmm, it seems that the matter is so complicated that even you don't know what's
>going on ;-) The latest issue of Debian Weekly News explicitly mentions that
>cdrecord has to go to non-free unless the license additions get changed.
Maybe your problem is that you are not involved with the discussion?
>From the last discussions, I can tell that Debian has no problems with what's
going to become cdrtools-2.01-final.
I am one of the persons that publish the most Free Software per person.
I am "living" the OSS/FS rules but it seems that some companies still have to
do their homework to understand what Free Software means.
My intension is _not_ to make my software non-free but to tell people who
believe that they may do with other people's software what they like that there
are limits. If these people/companies would be cooperative, this problem was non
existent. As it sometimes is hard to find the right algorith to do the job
right, it is the the same for contracts. You may need several iterations to find
the best solution.
>> Let me comment what SuSE is currently doing with cdrtools:
>You accuse Linux distributors of being non-cooperative, but I think that the
I explain why e.g. SuSE is non-cooperative. This is different from what you
write.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
URL: http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2004-08-19 13:39 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 405+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2004-08-04 12:33 PATCH: cdrecord: avoiding scsi device numbering for ide devices H.Rosmanith (Kernel Mailing List)
2004-08-04 12:43 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-04 12:58 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-05 0:56 ` H.Rosmanith (Kernel Mailing List)
2004-08-05 5:47 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-05 0:25 ` H.Rosmanith (Kernel Mailing List)
2004-08-05 5:43 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-19 7:04 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-19 11:12 ` Wakko Warner
2004-08-19 11:32 ` Lee Revell
2004-08-19 11:43 ` Marc Ballarin
2004-08-19 12:06 ` Diego Calleja
2004-08-19 13:04 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 15:10 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-23 9:09 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-23 21:25 ` Adrian Bunk
2004-08-19 12:42 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 12:41 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-19 14:34 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-20 8:02 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-20 14:05 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 16:43 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-19 14:35 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-19 13:10 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-19 13:38 ` Joerg Schilling [this message]
2004-08-19 13:56 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-19 14:03 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 14:14 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-19 14:45 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-19 15:00 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-19 15:04 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 15:14 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-19 15:18 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 17:32 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-20 18:25 ` Martin Schlemmer
2004-08-19 15:07 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-19 15:16 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 17:30 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-20 15:28 ` Andreas Jaeger
2004-08-20 16:37 ` Julien Oster
2004-08-19 15:36 ` Gene Heskett
2004-08-19 16:00 ` Paul Rolland
2004-08-19 17:41 ` Gene Heskett
2004-08-19 19:47 ` GNU make alleged of "bug" (was: PATCH: cdrecord: avoiding scsi device numbering for ide devices) Matthias Andree
2004-08-19 22:05 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-08-19 20:53 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-19 22:31 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 6:41 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-08-19 22:58 ` Andreas Schwab
2004-08-20 16:15 ` Tonnerre
2004-08-20 21:00 ` Lee Revell
2004-08-23 9:18 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 1:08 ` Gene Heskett
2004-08-20 8:31 ` Please no personal insults on this list (was: GNU make alleged of "bug") Matthias Andree
2004-08-19 14:29 ` PATCH: cdrecord: avoiding scsi device numbering for ide devices Christoph Hellwig
2004-08-19 15:29 ` Andreas Jaeger
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.60.0408191909570.23309@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
2004-08-20 13:40 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 14:14 ` Gerd Knorr
2004-08-19 14:32 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-19 14:32 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-19 16:00 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2004-08-19 16:07 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 17:32 ` Horst von Brand
2004-08-19 23:02 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2004-08-20 13:37 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 13:49 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-20 14:13 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 17:59 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-20 13:41 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 13:09 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-20 13:55 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-20 14:24 ` H.Rosmanith (Kernel Mailing List)
2004-08-20 14:37 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 15:05 ` Richard B. Johnson
2004-08-20 19:28 ` Martin Schlemmer
2004-08-20 20:30 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2004-08-20 22:05 ` Kyle Moffett
2004-08-20 23:30 ` Andreas Steinmetz
2004-08-21 6:58 ` David Greaves
2004-08-21 7:49 ` Marc Ballarin
2004-08-21 9:04 ` David Greaves
2004-08-21 11:19 ` Marc Ballarin
2004-08-22 10:44 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-22 17:09 ` Adam Sampson
2004-08-21 11:06 ` Xavier Bestel
2004-08-21 12:17 ` David Greaves
2004-08-19 17:24 ` Horst von Brand
2004-08-19 18:06 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-19 19:19 ` Mark Lord
2004-08-19 22:57 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2004-08-20 11:22 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-20 11:18 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-20 7:46 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-20 11:23 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-20 12:45 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-20 11:51 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 11:25 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-20 14:11 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-20 13:46 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-21 12:43 ` Joerg Schilling
[not found] ` <1093171538.24341.24.camel@localhost.localdomain>
2004-08-22 12:00 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-19 16:22 ` V13
2004-08-21 3:31 ` Patrick McFarland
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2004-08-05 11:50 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 11:53 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 12:05 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-05 12:22 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 12:25 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 12:29 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-05 16:45 ` Wakko Warner
2004-08-05 17:32 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-05 12:30 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 12:38 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-05 12:47 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-05 12:45 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 16:40 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-05 12:49 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 12:57 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-05 13:48 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-05 15:00 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-07 15:00 ` James Bottomley
2004-08-07 15:33 ` Arjan van de Ven
2004-08-06 8:09 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-06 8:14 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-06 8:24 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-06 8:28 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-06 8:33 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-06 9:01 ` Eduard Bloch
2004-08-06 9:14 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-06 10:40 ` DervishD
2004-08-06 22:42 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-08-10 8:15 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-06 10:18 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-06 10:42 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-06 11:37 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-06 17:59 ` Vojtech Pavlik
2004-08-06 22:47 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-08-08 11:15 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-08 18:58 ` Julien Oster
2004-08-06 13:30 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-06 15:10 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 8:41 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-10 8:50 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 10:11 ` Erik Mouw
2004-08-10 10:12 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 11:02 ` Erik Mouw
2004-08-10 11:49 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-10 13:29 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-11 22:37 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-06 23:15 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-07 10:31 ` V13
2004-08-12 21:03 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-08 16:45 ` James Bottomley
2004-08-08 17:31 ` Eric Lammerts
2004-08-06 13:45 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-06 14:11 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-06 14:16 ` Erik Mouw
2004-08-06 14:20 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-06 14:25 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-06 14:48 ` Erik Mouw
2004-08-06 20:26 Albert Cahalan
2004-08-06 23:35 ` Bernd Schubert
2004-08-07 0:01 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-07 0:14 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-07 17:26 ` Tim Wright
2004-08-08 21:42 ` Buddy Lumpkin
2004-08-12 21:11 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-12 21:10 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-12 22:44 ` Marc Ballarin
2004-08-07 2:11 ` Mark Lord
2004-08-07 22:08 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-07 22:41 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-07 23:19 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-08 2:33 ` Jan Knutar
2004-08-08 7:47 ` David Weinehall
2004-08-08 9:17 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-07 10:53 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-07 11:19 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-08 4:07 ` Paul Jakma
2004-08-07 11:28 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-07 11:40 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-08 5:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-08-08 13:39 ` Thomas Molina
2004-08-07 12:54 ` Jesper Juhl
2004-08-07 12:17 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-07 16:37 ` Nicholas Miell
2004-08-07 17:18 ` Nicholas Miell
2004-08-07 17:19 ` Frediano Ziglio
2004-08-07 17:37 ` V13
2004-08-09 8:13 ` Thomas Richter
2004-08-09 11:44 ` Gene Heskett
2004-08-09 10:53 ` Helge Hafting
2004-08-09 12:07 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-07 19:53 Albert Cahalan
2004-08-07 23:16 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-08 8:21 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-08 16:40 Albert Cahalan
2004-08-09 10:13 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 10:21 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 12:01 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-09 11:09 ` Con Kolivas
2004-08-09 12:04 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-09 12:12 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 12:06 ` Jesse Stockall
2004-08-10 9:12 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-09 10:33 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 10:39 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-09 11:46 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 11:53 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 11:56 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 10:42 ` Albert Cahalan
2004-08-09 11:58 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:32 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-09 12:05 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:03 ` Paul Jakma
2004-08-09 12:10 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 12:24 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 12:39 ` Karol Kozimor
2004-08-09 13:00 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-09 13:01 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-09 14:07 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 14:36 ` Eric Lammerts
2004-08-09 13:36 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 13:54 ` Marc Ballarin
2004-08-09 14:17 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 13:46 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:24 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-10 9:25 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-09 13:51 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:08 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 14:12 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:21 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-12 22:10 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-13 2:34 ` Bob Tracy
2004-08-09 14:33 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-09 14:13 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:21 ` Paul Jakma
2004-08-09 14:21 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 14:21 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:23 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 15:40 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-09 20:52 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-09 14:27 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:31 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 14:38 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:44 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-09 14:40 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 14:51 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-09 16:26 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-09 14:43 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 9:38 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-09 14:57 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-09 20:22 Albert Cahalan
2004-08-09 22:59 ` Con Kolivas
2004-08-09 23:25 ` David Lang
2004-08-10 1:01 ` Albert Cahalan
2004-08-10 4:47 ` Con Kolivas
2004-08-10 2:51 ` Albert Cahalan
2004-08-10 7:02 ` Thomas Zimmerman
2004-08-10 8:20 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-10 22:59 ` Jan Knutar
2004-08-11 1:09 ` Albert Cahalan
2004-08-12 22:34 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-12 23:29 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-13 7:01 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 8:16 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-10 14:33 ` Lee Revell
2004-08-10 15:04 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-10 16:09 ` Lee Revell
2004-08-11 0:23 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-11 3:07 ` Lee Revell
2004-08-11 7:28 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-11 7:34 ` Lee Revell
2004-08-12 22:15 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-10 7:59 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-10 9:42 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-12 22:40 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-12 23:10 ` Måns Rullgård
2004-08-10 9:52 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-10 10:03 ` Prakash K. Cheemplavam
2004-08-10 10:07 ` Prakash K. Cheemplavam
2004-08-10 9:48 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-10 22:34 ` Jan Knutar
[not found] <200408091338.i79DcauL010369@burner.fokus.fraunhofer.de>
2004-08-09 21:10 ` Con Kolivas
2004-08-10 10:19 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 12:14 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-10 15:02 ` Lenar Lõhmus
2004-08-10 10:20 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 10:27 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 11:57 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-10 12:46 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-12 22:58 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-10 16:28 ` Gene Heskett
2004-08-11 0:24 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-11 3:11 ` Gene Heskett
2004-08-11 10:04 ` Florian Schirmer
2004-08-12 23:27 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-10 10:33 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 13:42 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-10 12:41 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 13:27 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-10 12:45 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 12:57 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-10 13:51 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-10 12:46 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 12:57 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-10 13:09 ` Xavier Bestel
2004-08-10 13:18 ` Kyle Moffett
2004-08-10 12:47 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 12:57 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-10 13:03 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 15:00 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-10 15:05 ` Chris Meadors
2004-08-26 15:02 ` Raphael Jacquot
2004-08-26 15:19 ` Chris Meadors
2004-08-10 21:02 ` Martin Schlemmer
2004-08-10 13:05 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 13:21 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 14:27 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 14:49 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-10 15:24 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2004-08-10 15:33 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 16:29 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2004-08-10 18:53 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 19:01 ` Adrian Bunk
2004-08-10 20:29 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 15:48 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-10 16:10 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2004-08-10 16:47 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-10 16:52 ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2004-08-10 15:15 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 15:25 ` David Woodhouse
2004-08-10 15:36 ` Martin Mares
2004-08-11 2:17 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2004-08-11 23:05 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-10 15:28 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-11 9:34 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-10 15:44 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 16:05 ` Richard B. Johnson
2004-08-11 8:25 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-10 18:48 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-10 15:54 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-10 21:33 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-11 7:56 ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2004-08-11 14:30 ` Brian Beattie
2004-08-10 21:48 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-11 11:44 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-12 1:57 Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-12 4:05 ` Andre Tomt
2004-08-16 18:11 ` Tomasz Torcz
2004-08-12 2:24 Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-12 6:28 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-12 13:55 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-12 14:15 ` Frank Steiner
[not found] <20040812185302.GA18126@suse.de>
2004-08-13 2:39 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-13 5:24 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-13 13:34 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-13 13:48 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-13 23:50 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-16 6:48 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-13 6:08 ` Jens Axboe
2004-08-16 12:41 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-16 12:47 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-16 12:51 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-16 13:32 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-17 4:01 ` Kyle Moffett
2004-08-18 0:32 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-18 5:16 ` Eric Lammerts
2004-08-18 13:43 ` Robert M. Stockmann
2004-08-18 14:02 ` Frank Steiner
2004-08-13 11:45 Joerg Schilling
2004-08-13 12:21 ` Andreas Schwab
[not found] <2ptdY-42Y-55@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2uPdM-380-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2uUwL-6VP-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2uWfh-8jo-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2uXl0-Gt-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2vge2-63k-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2vgQF-6Ai-39@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2vipq-7O8-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2vj2b-8md-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <2vDtS-bq-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
2004-08-21 15:01 ` Pascal Schmidt
2004-08-21 15:57 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-21 21:42 ` Pascal Schmidt
2004-08-22 11:56 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-22 12:14 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-22 12:52 ` Patrick McFarland
2004-08-22 13:05 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-22 16:38 ` Horst von Brand
2004-08-22 15:11 ` Horst von Brand
2004-08-22 18:09 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-22 13:13 ` Pascal Schmidt
2004-08-22 16:00 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-22 16:32 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-22 17:18 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-22 20:27 ` Giuseppe Bilotta
2004-08-22 21:29 ` Julien Oster
2004-08-23 11:40 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-23 13:15 ` Matthias Andree
2004-08-23 18:16 ` Kai Makisara
2004-08-24 10:22 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-24 15:34 ` Joerg Schilling
2004-08-22 16:33 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-22 16:19 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-22 17:31 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-22 20:47 ` Alan Cox
2004-08-22 22:17 ` Christer Weinigel
2004-08-23 12:22 ` Adam Sampson
2004-08-22 19:26 ` Tonnerre
2004-08-23 20:25 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-23 21:01 ` Doug Maxey
2004-08-25 18:29 ` Bill Davidsen
2004-08-24 2:22 ` Nuno Silva
2004-08-22 21:27 ` Julien Oster
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