* [PATCH 0/2] Doc, scripts: facilitate phaseout of strlcat
@ 2026-05-10 16:49 Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 16:52 ` [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat() Manuel Ebner
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Manuel Ebner @ 2026-05-10 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andy Shevchenko, Kees Cook, Jonathan Corbet, Shuah Khan,
Andy Whitcroft, Joe Perches, Dwaipayan Ray, Lukas Bulwahn,
open list:DOCUMENTATION PROCESS, open list:DOCUMENTATION,
open list
Cc: Manuel Ebner
The goal of this series is to facilitate the transition from strlcat to better
alternatives.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat()
2026-05-10 16:49 [PATCH 0/2] Doc, scripts: facilitate phaseout of strlcat Manuel Ebner
@ 2026-05-10 16:52 ` Manuel Ebner
2026-05-11 11:40 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2026-05-10 16:54 ` Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 16:56 ` [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat() Manuel Ebner
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Manuel Ebner @ 2026-05-10 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: manuelebner
Cc: andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees, linux-doc,
linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
add strlcat and alternatives
---
Documentation/process/deprecated.rst | 6 ++++++
1 file changed, 6 insertions(+)
diff --git a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
index fed56864d036..b8a65c19796c 100644
--- a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
+++ b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
@@ -162,6 +162,12 @@ if a source string is not NUL-terminated. The safe replacement is strscpy(),
though care must be given to any cases where the return value of strlcpy()
is used, since strscpy() will return negative errno values when it truncates.
+strlcat()
+---------
+strlcat() must re-scan the destination string from the beginning on each
+call (O(n^2) behavior). Alternatives are seq_buf_puts(), seq_buf_printf(),
+snprintf() and scnprintf()
+
%p format specifier
-------------------
Traditionally, using "%p" in format strings would lead to regular address
--
2.54.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat()
2026-05-10 16:49 [PATCH 0/2] Doc, scripts: facilitate phaseout of strlcat Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 16:52 ` [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat() Manuel Ebner
@ 2026-05-10 16:54 ` Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 17:32 ` Randy Dunlap
2026-05-10 16:56 ` [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat() Manuel Ebner
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Manuel Ebner @ 2026-05-10 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: manuelebner
Cc: andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees, linux-doc,
linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
add strlcat and alternatives
Signed-off-by: Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org>
---
Documentation/process/deprecated.rst | 6 ++++++
1 file changed, 6 insertions(+)
diff --git a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
index fed56864d036..b8a65c19796c 100644
--- a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
+++ b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
@@ -162,6 +162,12 @@ if a source string is not NUL-terminated. The safe replacement is strscpy(),
though care must be given to any cases where the return value of strlcpy()
is used, since strscpy() will return negative errno values when it truncates.
+strlcat()
+---------
+strlcat() must re-scan the destination string from the beginning on each
+call (O(n^2) behavior). Alternatives are seq_buf_puts(), seq_buf_printf(),
+snprintf() and scnprintf()
+
%p format specifier
-------------------
Traditionally, using "%p" in format strings would lead to regular address
--
2.54.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat()
2026-05-10 16:49 [PATCH 0/2] Doc, scripts: facilitate phaseout of strlcat Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 16:52 ` [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat() Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 16:54 ` Manuel Ebner
@ 2026-05-10 16:56 ` Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 17:31 ` Randy Dunlap
2026-05-11 12:12 ` Jonathan Corbet
2 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Manuel Ebner @ 2026-05-10 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: manuelebner
Cc: andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees, linux-doc,
linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
add a warning for strlcat()
Signed-off-by: Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org>
---
scripts/checkpatch.pl | 6 ++++++
1 file changed, 6 insertions(+)
diff --git a/scripts/checkpatch.pl b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
index 0492d6afc9a1..ca1a8e67d529 100755
--- a/scripts/checkpatch.pl
+++ b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
@@ -7085,6 +7085,12 @@ sub process {
"Prefer strscpy over strlcpy - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/89\n" . $herecurr);
}
+# strlcat uses that should likely be
+ if ($line =~ /\bstrlcat\s*\(/ && !is_userspace($realfile)) {
+ WARN("STRLCAT",
+ "Prefer seq_buf_printf() over strlcat - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/370\n" . $herecurr);
+ }
+
# strncpy uses that should likely be strscpy or strscpy_pad
if ($line =~ /\bstrncpy\s*\(/ && !is_userspace($realfile)) {
WARN("STRNCPY",
--
2.54.0
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat()
2026-05-10 16:56 ` [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat() Manuel Ebner
@ 2026-05-10 17:31 ` Randy Dunlap
2026-05-11 12:12 ` Jonathan Corbet
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Randy Dunlap @ 2026-05-10 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Manuel Ebner
Cc: andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees, linux-doc,
linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
On 5/10/26 9:56 AM, Manuel Ebner wrote:
> add a warning for strlcat()
>
> Signed-off-by: Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org>
> ---
> scripts/checkpatch.pl | 6 ++++++
> 1 file changed, 6 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/scripts/checkpatch.pl b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> index 0492d6afc9a1..ca1a8e67d529 100755
> --- a/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> +++ b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> @@ -7085,6 +7085,12 @@ sub process {
> "Prefer strscpy over strlcpy - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/89\n" . $herecurr);
> }
>
> +# strlcat uses that should likely be
should likely be what?
> + if ($line =~ /\bstrlcat\s*\(/ && !is_userspace($realfile)) {
> + WARN("STRLCAT",
> + "Prefer seq_buf_printf() over strlcat - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/370\n" . $herecurr);
> + }
> +
> # strncpy uses that should likely be strscpy or strscpy_pad
> if ($line =~ /\bstrncpy\s*\(/ && !is_userspace($realfile)) {
> WARN("STRNCPY",
--
~Randy
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat()
2026-05-10 16:54 ` Manuel Ebner
@ 2026-05-10 17:32 ` Randy Dunlap
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Randy Dunlap @ 2026-05-10 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Manuel Ebner
Cc: andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees, linux-doc,
linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
On 5/10/26 9:54 AM, Manuel Ebner wrote:
> add strlcat and alternatives
>
> Signed-off-by: Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org>
> ---
> Documentation/process/deprecated.rst | 6 ++++++
> 1 file changed, 6 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> index fed56864d036..b8a65c19796c 100644
> --- a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> +++ b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> @@ -162,6 +162,12 @@ if a source string is not NUL-terminated. The safe replacement is strscpy(),
> though care must be given to any cases where the return value of strlcpy()
> is used, since strscpy() will return negative errno values when it truncates.
>
> +strlcat()
> +---------
> +strlcat() must re-scan the destination string from the beginning on each
> +call (O(n^2) behavior). Alternatives are seq_buf_puts(), seq_buf_printf(),
> +snprintf() and scnprintf()
Add an ending period.
> +
> %p format specifier
> -------------------
> Traditionally, using "%p" in format strings would lead to regular address
--
~Randy
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat()
2026-05-10 16:52 ` [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat() Manuel Ebner
@ 2026-05-11 11:40 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2026-05-11 13:26 ` David Laight
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Geert Uytterhoeven @ 2026-05-11 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Manuel Ebner
Cc: andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees, linux-doc,
linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
Hi Manuel,
On Sun, 10 May 2026 at 18:52, Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org> wrote:
> add strlcat and alternatives
Thanks for your patch!
> --- a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> +++ b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> @@ -162,6 +162,12 @@ if a source string is not NUL-terminated. The safe replacement is strscpy(),
> though care must be given to any cases where the return value of strlcpy()
> is used, since strscpy() will return negative errno values when it truncates.
>
> +strlcat()
> +---------
> +strlcat() must re-scan the destination string from the beginning on each
> +call (O(n^2) behavior). Alternatives are seq_buf_puts(), seq_buf_printf(),
> +snprintf() and scnprintf()
The last two not only require the caller to keep track of the offset
in the buffer, but also using "%s" when storing passed strings.
I hope we won't see mindless conversions lacking the "%s",
introducing new security issues:
-strlcat(buf, s, size);
+scnprintf(buf + off, size - off, s);
> +
> %p format specifier
> -------------------
> Traditionally, using "%p" in format strings would lead to regular address
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- geert@linux-m68k.org
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat()
2026-05-10 16:56 ` [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat() Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 17:31 ` Randy Dunlap
@ 2026-05-11 12:12 ` Jonathan Corbet
2026-05-11 13:27 ` David Laight
1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan Corbet @ 2026-05-11 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Manuel Ebner, manuelebner
Cc: andy.shevchenko, apw, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees, linux-doc,
linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org> writes:
> add a warning for strlcat()
>
> Signed-off-by: Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org>
> ---
> scripts/checkpatch.pl | 6 ++++++
> 1 file changed, 6 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/scripts/checkpatch.pl b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> index 0492d6afc9a1..ca1a8e67d529 100755
> --- a/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> +++ b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> @@ -7085,6 +7085,12 @@ sub process {
> "Prefer strscpy over strlcpy - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/89\n" . $herecurr);
> }
>
> +# strlcat uses that should likely be
> + if ($line =~ /\bstrlcat\s*\(/ && !is_userspace($realfile)) {
> + WARN("STRLCAT",
> + "Prefer seq_buf_printf() over strlcat - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/370\n" . $herecurr);
> + }
Using seq_buf_printf() requires switching over to the seq_buf API in
general, it is not just a simple substitution, so this advice may prove
unhelpful to many.
jon
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat()
2026-05-11 11:40 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
@ 2026-05-11 13:26 ` David Laight
2026-05-11 19:07 ` Kees Cook
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: David Laight @ 2026-05-11 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Geert Uytterhoeven
Cc: Manuel Ebner, andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet, dwaipayanray1, joe,
kees, linux-doc, linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
On Mon, 11 May 2026 13:40:55 +0200
Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> wrote:
> Hi Manuel,
>
> On Sun, 10 May 2026 at 18:52, Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org> wrote:
> > add strlcat and alternatives
>
> Thanks for your patch!
>
> > --- a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> > +++ b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> > @@ -162,6 +162,12 @@ if a source string is not NUL-terminated. The safe replacement is strscpy(),
> > though care must be given to any cases where the return value of strlcpy()
> > is used, since strscpy() will return negative errno values when it truncates.
> >
> > +strlcat()
> > +---------
> > +strlcat() must re-scan the destination string from the beginning on each
> > +call (O(n^2) behavior). Alternatives are seq_buf_puts(), seq_buf_printf(),
> > +snprintf() and scnprintf()
>
> The last two not only require the caller to keep track of the offset
> in the buffer, but also using "%s" when storing passed strings.
Which also means they are significantly slower.
Mind you, some code has:
strlcat(buf, "\n", SIZE);
return strlen(buf);
which carefully scans the string twice.
Since the '\0' isn't always needed (eg 'show' functions), this can be:
len = strlen(buf);
buf[len] ='\n';
return len + 1;
Of course, the code could often easily get the length by other means.
-- David
>
> I hope we won't see mindless conversions lacking the "%s",
> introducing new security issues:
>
> -strlcat(buf, s, size);
> +scnprintf(buf + off, size - off, s);
>
> > +
> > %p format specifier
> > -------------------
> > Traditionally, using "%p" in format strings would lead to regular address
>
> Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
>
> Geert
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat()
2026-05-11 12:12 ` Jonathan Corbet
@ 2026-05-11 13:27 ` David Laight
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: David Laight @ 2026-05-11 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonathan Corbet
Cc: Manuel Ebner, andy.shevchenko, apw, dwaipayanray1, joe, kees,
linux-doc, linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan, workflows
On Mon, 11 May 2026 06:12:36 -0600
Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net> wrote:
> Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org> writes:
>
> > add a warning for strlcat()
> >
> > Signed-off-by: Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org>
> > ---
> > scripts/checkpatch.pl | 6 ++++++
> > 1 file changed, 6 insertions(+)
> >
> > diff --git a/scripts/checkpatch.pl b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> > index 0492d6afc9a1..ca1a8e67d529 100755
> > --- a/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> > +++ b/scripts/checkpatch.pl
> > @@ -7085,6 +7085,12 @@ sub process {
> > "Prefer strscpy over strlcpy - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/89\n" . $herecurr);
> > }
> >
> > +# strlcat uses that should likely be
> > + if ($line =~ /\bstrlcat\s*\(/ && !is_userspace($realfile)) {
> > + WARN("STRLCAT",
> > + "Prefer seq_buf_printf() over strlcat - see: https://github.com/KSPP/linux/issues/370\n" . $herecurr);
> > + }
>
> Using seq_buf_printf() requires switching over to the seq_buf API in
> general, it is not just a simple substitution, so this advice may prove
> unhelpful to many.
And I'm not sure the external url is a good idea.
>
> jon
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat()
2026-05-11 13:26 ` David Laight
@ 2026-05-11 19:07 ` Kees Cook
2026-05-11 20:34 ` David Laight
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Kees Cook @ 2026-05-11 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Laight
Cc: Geert Uytterhoeven, Manuel Ebner, andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet,
dwaipayanray1, joe, linux-doc, linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan,
workflows
On Mon, May 11, 2026 at 02:26:49PM +0100, David Laight wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2026 13:40:55 +0200
> Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi Manuel,
> >
> > On Sun, 10 May 2026 at 18:52, Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org> wrote:
> > > add strlcat and alternatives
> >
> > Thanks for your patch!
> >
> > > --- a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> > > +++ b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> > > @@ -162,6 +162,12 @@ if a source string is not NUL-terminated. The safe replacement is strscpy(),
> > > though care must be given to any cases where the return value of strlcpy()
> > > is used, since strscpy() will return negative errno values when it truncates.
> > >
> > > +strlcat()
> > > +---------
> > > +strlcat() must re-scan the destination string from the beginning on each
> > > +call (O(n^2) behavior). Alternatives are seq_buf_puts(), seq_buf_printf(),
> > > +snprintf() and scnprintf()
> >
> > The last two not only require the caller to keep track of the offset
> > in the buffer, but also using "%s" when storing passed strings.
>
> Which also means they are significantly slower.
> Mind you, some code has:
> strlcat(buf, "\n", SIZE);
> return strlen(buf);
> which carefully scans the string twice.
> Since the '\0' isn't always needed (eg 'show' functions), this can be:
> len = strlen(buf);
> buf[len] ='\n';
> return len + 1;
> Of course, the code could often easily get the length by other means.
I think I'd prefer to only recommend using seq_buf API. Or for sysfs,
sysfs_emit() as seq_buf hasn't been extended there yet.
-Kees
--
Kees Cook
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat()
2026-05-11 19:07 ` Kees Cook
@ 2026-05-11 20:34 ` David Laight
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: David Laight @ 2026-05-11 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kees Cook
Cc: Geert Uytterhoeven, Manuel Ebner, andy.shevchenko, apw, corbet,
dwaipayanray1, joe, linux-doc, linux-kernel, lukas.bulwahn, skhan,
workflows
On Mon, 11 May 2026 12:07:38 -0700
Kees Cook <kees@kernel.org> wrote:
> On Mon, May 11, 2026 at 02:26:49PM +0100, David Laight wrote:
> > On Mon, 11 May 2026 13:40:55 +0200
> > Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Manuel,
> > >
> > > On Sun, 10 May 2026 at 18:52, Manuel Ebner <manuelebner@mailbox.org> wrote:
> > > > add strlcat and alternatives
> > >
> > > Thanks for your patch!
> > >
> > > > --- a/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> > > > +++ b/Documentation/process/deprecated.rst
> > > > @@ -162,6 +162,12 @@ if a source string is not NUL-terminated. The safe replacement is strscpy(),
> > > > though care must be given to any cases where the return value of strlcpy()
> > > > is used, since strscpy() will return negative errno values when it truncates.
> > > >
> > > > +strlcat()
> > > > +---------
> > > > +strlcat() must re-scan the destination string from the beginning on each
> > > > +call (O(n^2) behavior). Alternatives are seq_buf_puts(), seq_buf_printf(),
> > > > +snprintf() and scnprintf()
> > >
> > > The last two not only require the caller to keep track of the offset
> > > in the buffer, but also using "%s" when storing passed strings.
> >
> > Which also means they are significantly slower.
> > Mind you, some code has:
> > strlcat(buf, "\n", SIZE);
> > return strlen(buf);
> > which carefully scans the string twice.
> > Since the '\0' isn't always needed (eg 'show' functions), this can be:
> > len = strlen(buf);
> > buf[len] ='\n';
> > return len + 1;
> > Of course, the code could often easily get the length by other means.
>
> I think I'd prefer to only recommend using seq_buf API. Or for sysfs,
> sysfs_emit() as seq_buf hasn't been extended there yet.
True for the docs, but rather more work when you are just trying to
get rid of strcpy() and strcat() calls.
It can be hard working out whether you can use sysfs_emit() or not.
(And I recently failed to find where the PAGE_SIZE buffer is
actually allocated; I'm sure it should just be 4k.)
-- David
>
> -Kees
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2026-05-11 20:34 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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2026-05-10 16:49 [PATCH 0/2] Doc, scripts: facilitate phaseout of strlcat Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 16:52 ` [PATCH 1/2] [PATCH 1/2] Doc: deprecated.rst: add strlcat() Manuel Ebner
2026-05-11 11:40 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2026-05-11 13:26 ` David Laight
2026-05-11 19:07 ` Kees Cook
2026-05-11 20:34 ` David Laight
2026-05-10 16:54 ` Manuel Ebner
2026-05-10 17:32 ` Randy Dunlap
2026-05-10 16:56 ` [PATCH 2/2] scripts: checkpatch.pl: add warning for strlcat() Manuel Ebner
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