* ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted
@ 2011-08-24 13:42 Adishesh M
2011-08-25 5:41 ` Adishesh M
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Adishesh M @ 2011-08-24 13:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: netfilter
Hi,
When we insert below rules into the ip tables, ssh sessions are
hanging ( infact all tcp connection are terminated).
“iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m
state --state NEW -j DROP”.
what is the problem with this above rule. we used this rule to drop
bad tcp packets. when firewall is restarted using "service iptables
restart", ssh sessions are hanging.
Rule used for testing.
ssh session hangs
<set 1>
--------------------------
iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m
state --state NEW -j DROP
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state
RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP
ssh session hangs
<set 2>
----------------------------
iptables -N TEST_LAN_1
iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m
state --state NEW -j DROP
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1
iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state
RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT
iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP
ssh session does not hang
<set 3>
---------------------------------------
iptables -N TEST_LAN_1
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1
iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state
RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT
iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP
ssh session does not hang
<set 4>
---------------------------------------
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state
RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT
iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP
steps to reproduce the this issue
-----------------------------------------------
iptables -F
iptables -X
<Insert any one set of rules from set 1 or set 2 >
service ip6tables stop
service iptables save
iptables -L -n
service iptables restart
iptables -L -n
Thanks and regards,
Adishesh
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread* Re: ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted 2011-08-24 13:42 ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted Adishesh M @ 2011-08-25 5:41 ` Adishesh M 2011-08-25 6:04 ` Grant Taylor 2011-08-25 10:15 ` Pandu Poluan 2 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Adishesh M @ 2011-08-25 5:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: netfilter, adisheshsm Hi, update to below help. with only below one rule, all tcp connection are hanging. "iptables -A INPUT -p TCP ! --syn -m state --state NEW -j DROP" How to reproduce ------------------------- 1. open more then one ssh session to the machine 2. iptables -P INPUT ACCEPT && iptables -F && iptables -X 3. service ip6tables stop 4. iptables -A INPUT -p TCP ! --syn -m state --state NEW -j DROP 5. service iptables restart ssh session will be terminated. I am using below operating system. root@ATCA-N6> uname -a Linux ATCA-N6 2.6.32-131.4.1.el6.x86_64 #1 SMP Fri Jun 10 10:54:26 EDT 2011 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux root@ATCA-N6> Thanks and regards, Adishesh libnetfilter_conntrack-0.0.100-2.el6.x86_64 Thanks and regards, Adishesh On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Adishesh M <adisheshsm@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > When we insert below rules into the ip tables, ssh sessions are > hanging ( infact all tcp connection are terminated). > > “iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m > state --state NEW -j DROP”. > > what is the problem with this above rule. we used this rule to drop > bad tcp packets. when firewall is restarted using "service iptables > restart", ssh sessions are hanging. > > > Rule used for testing. > > ssh session hangs > <set 1> > -------------------------- > iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m > state --state NEW -j DROP > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > ssh session hangs > <set 2> > ---------------------------- > iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m > state --state NEW -j DROP > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > > ssh session does not hang > <set 3> > --------------------------------------- > iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > ssh session does not hang > <set 4> > --------------------------------------- > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > steps to reproduce the this issue > ----------------------------------------------- > iptables -F > iptables -X > <Insert any one set of rules from set 1 or set 2 > > service ip6tables stop > service iptables save > iptables -L -n > service iptables restart > iptables -L -n > > Thanks and regards, > Adishesh > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted 2011-08-24 13:42 ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted Adishesh M 2011-08-25 5:41 ` Adishesh M @ 2011-08-25 6:04 ` Grant Taylor 2011-08-25 7:28 ` Tyler J. Wagner 2011-08-25 8:06 ` Jan Engelhardt 2011-08-25 10:15 ` Pandu Poluan 2 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Grant Taylor @ 2011-08-25 6:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mail List - Netfilter On 8/24/2011 08:42, Adishesh M wrote: > what is the problem with this above rule. we used this rule to drop > bad tcp packets. when firewall is restarted using "service iptables > restart", ssh sessions are hanging. I don't think there is any thing wrong with the rule at all. I think the problem is how you are thinking about the connection. You are looking for connections that are new to the connection tracking sub-system that do not have a SYN flag set. An already established SSH connection will not need to send a SYN packet, but will still appear "new" to the connection tracking sub-system after you re-start the firewall. So, IMHO, this behavior should be expected. I'd sit down and think about how frequently this ""problem (such as it is) happens and if it has enough impact to cause me to want to re-design firewall rules to take it in to account. Grant. . . . ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted 2011-08-25 6:04 ` Grant Taylor @ 2011-08-25 7:28 ` Tyler J. Wagner 2011-08-25 8:06 ` Jan Engelhardt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Tyler J. Wagner @ 2011-08-25 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: Mail List - Netfilter On 2011-08-25 07:04, Grant Taylor wrote: > I'd sit down and think about how frequently this ""problem (such as it is) > happens and if it has enough impact to cause me to want to re-design > firewall rules to take it in to account. Indeed. A better solution: -A INPUT -p tcp ! --syn -m state --state NEW -j DROP -A INPUT -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT If your firewall script clears the connection states (conntrack -F) or unloads and reloads the kernel modules (thus doing the same thing), you will always have this problem, and no different iptables design will fix it. Regards, Tyler -- "The Congress shall have Power . . . To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." -- Article I, Section 8, U.S. Constitution ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted 2011-08-25 6:04 ` Grant Taylor 2011-08-25 7:28 ` Tyler J. Wagner @ 2011-08-25 8:06 ` Jan Engelhardt 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Jan Engelhardt @ 2011-08-25 8:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: Mail List - Netfilter On Thursday 2011-08-25 08:04, Grant Taylor wrote: > On 8/24/2011 08:42, Adishesh M wrote: >> what is the problem with this above rule. we used this rule to drop >> bad tcp packets. when firewall is restarted using "service iptables >> restart", ssh sessions are hanging. > > I don't think there is any thing wrong with the rule at all. I think the > problem is how you are thinking about the connection. > > You are looking for connections that are new to the connection tracking > sub-system that do not have a SYN flag set. > > An already established SSH connection will not need to send a SYN packet, but > will still appear "new" to the connection tracking sub-system after you > re-start the firewall. It depends on _what_ actually is restarted. Changing just the ruleset does not affect CT entries. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted 2011-08-24 13:42 ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted Adishesh M 2011-08-25 5:41 ` Adishesh M 2011-08-25 6:04 ` Grant Taylor @ 2011-08-25 10:15 ` Pandu Poluan 2011-08-25 10:34 ` Adishesh M 2 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Pandu Poluan @ 2011-08-25 10:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Adishesh M, netfilter Why do you need to restart iptables? iptables is *not* a daemon-based service. It's always on in the kernel. All invocation of the iptables command act *immediately* Rgds, On 2011-08-24, Adishesh M <adisheshsm@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > When we insert below rules into the ip tables, ssh sessions are > hanging ( infact all tcp connection are terminated). > > “iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m > state --state NEW -j DROP”. > > what is the problem with this above rule. we used this rule to drop > bad tcp packets. when firewall is restarted using "service iptables > restart", ssh sessions are hanging. > > > Rule used for testing. > > ssh session hangs > <set 1> > -------------------------- > iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m > state --state NEW -j DROP > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > ssh session hangs > <set 2> > ---------------------------- > iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m > state --state NEW -j DROP > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > > ssh session does not hang > <set 3> > --------------------------------------- > iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > ssh session does not hang > <set 4> > --------------------------------------- > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state > RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT > iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP > > > steps to reproduce the this issue > ----------------------------------------------- > iptables -F > iptables -X > <Insert any one set of rules from set 1 or set 2 > > service ip6tables stop > service iptables save > iptables -L -n > service iptables restart > iptables -L -n > > Thanks and regards, > Adishesh > -- > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netfilter" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > -- -- Pandu E Poluan - IT Optimizer My website: http://pandu.poluan.info/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted 2011-08-25 10:15 ` Pandu Poluan @ 2011-08-25 10:34 ` Adishesh M 2011-08-25 10:51 ` Tyler J. Wagner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Adishesh M @ 2011-08-25 10:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: netfilter, Pandu Poluan Hi, I was doing other tests and come cross this issue. we have not observed this issue on fedora 14. Only in RHEL 6.1 this issue is observed. Solution for this issue may be available in latest netfiler versions but not yet integrated in RHEL 6. Thanks and regards, Adishesh On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote: > Why do you need to restart iptables? > > iptables is *not* a daemon-based service. It's always on in the > kernel. All invocation of the iptables command act *immediately* > > Rgds, > > > On 2011-08-24, Adishesh M <adisheshsm@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> When we insert below rules into the ip tables, ssh sessions are >> hanging ( infact all tcp connection are terminated). >> >> “iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m >> state --state NEW -j DROP”. >> >> what is the problem with this above rule. we used this rule to drop >> bad tcp packets. when firewall is restarted using "service iptables >> restart", ssh sessions are hanging. >> >> >> Rule used for testing. >> >> ssh session hangs >> <set 1> >> -------------------------- >> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m >> state --state NEW -j DROP >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >> >> >> ssh session hangs >> <set 2> >> ---------------------------- >> iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 >> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m >> state --state NEW -j DROP >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 >> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >> >> >> >> ssh session does not hang >> <set 3> >> --------------------------------------- >> iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 >> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >> >> >> ssh session does not hang >> <set 4> >> --------------------------------------- >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >> >> >> steps to reproduce the this issue >> ----------------------------------------------- >> iptables -F >> iptables -X >> <Insert any one set of rules from set 1 or set 2 > >> service ip6tables stop >> service iptables save >> iptables -L -n >> service iptables restart >> iptables -L -n >> >> Thanks and regards, >> Adishesh >> -- >> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netfilter" in >> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org >> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html >> > > > -- > -- > Pandu E Poluan - IT Optimizer > My website: http://pandu.poluan.info/ > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted 2011-08-25 10:34 ` Adishesh M @ 2011-08-25 10:51 ` Tyler J. Wagner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Tyler J. Wagner @ 2011-08-25 10:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Adishesh M; +Cc: netfilter, Pandu Poluan Adishesh, This is not a netfilter issue. This is an issue with RHEL 6.1, and the fact that it is unloading and reloading the netfilter module when you invoke "restart". Instead, just do this: iptables-restore /etc/sysconfig/iptables Regards, Tyler On 2011-08-25 11:34, Adishesh M wrote: > Hi, > > I was doing other tests and come cross this issue. > we have not observed this issue on fedora 14. Only in RHEL 6.1 this > issue is observed. > Solution for this issue may be available in latest netfiler versions > but not yet integrated in RHEL 6. > > > Thanks and regards, > Adishesh > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote: >> Why do you need to restart iptables? >> >> iptables is *not* a daemon-based service. It's always on in the >> kernel. All invocation of the iptables command act *immediately* >> >> Rgds, >> >> >> On 2011-08-24, Adishesh M <adisheshsm@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> When we insert below rules into the ip tables, ssh sessions are >>> hanging ( infact all tcp connection are terminated). >>> >>> “iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m >>> state --state NEW -j DROP”. >>> >>> what is the problem with this above rule. we used this rule to drop >>> bad tcp packets. when firewall is restarted using "service iptables >>> restart", ssh sessions are hanging. >>> >>> >>> Rule used for testing. >>> >>> ssh session hangs >>> <set 1> >>> -------------------------- >>> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m >>> state --state NEW -j DROP >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >>> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >>> >>> >>> ssh session hangs >>> <set 2> >>> ---------------------------- >>> iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 >>> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -m tcp ! --tcp-flags FIN,SYN,RST,ACK SYN -m >>> state --state NEW -j DROP >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 >>> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >>> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >>> >>> >>> >>> ssh session does not hang >>> <set 3> >>> --------------------------------------- >>> iptables -N TEST_LAN_1 >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j TEST_LAN_1 >>> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >>> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A TEST_LAN_1 -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >>> >>> >>> ssh session does not hang >>> <set 4> >>> --------------------------------------- >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -m state --state >>> RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -p tcp -m tcp --dport 22 -j ACCEPT >>> iptables -A INPUT -d 10.255.13.157 -j DROP >>> >>> >>> steps to reproduce the this issue >>> ----------------------------------------------- >>> iptables -F >>> iptables -X >>> <Insert any one set of rules from set 1 or set 2 > >>> service ip6tables stop >>> service iptables save >>> iptables -L -n >>> service iptables restart >>> iptables -L -n >>> >>> Thanks and regards, >>> Adishesh >>> -- >>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netfilter" in >>> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org >>> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html >>> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Pandu E Poluan - IT Optimizer >> My website: http://pandu.poluan.info/ >> > -- > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netfilter" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > -- "The bourgeoisie are hated from both ends: by the proles, because they have all the money, and by the intelligentsia, because of their tendency to spend it on lawn ornaments." -- Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2011-08-25 10:51 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2011-08-24 13:42 ssh session are hanging when firewall is restarted Adishesh M 2011-08-25 5:41 ` Adishesh M 2011-08-25 6:04 ` Grant Taylor 2011-08-25 7:28 ` Tyler J. Wagner 2011-08-25 8:06 ` Jan Engelhardt 2011-08-25 10:15 ` Pandu Poluan 2011-08-25 10:34 ` Adishesh M 2011-08-25 10:51 ` Tyler J. Wagner
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