OE & Angstrom reputation (was: [Angstrom-devel] Bugzilla is not USENET)

OE & Angstrom reputation (was: [Angstrom-devel] Bugzilla is not USENET)

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Graeme Gregory wrote:
> Guys the bickering in bugzilla is getting to the point where it
> is silly.

> I personally don't feel that this lends a good impression of the OE
> project and the Angstrom distribution.

> Also a lot of the actual arguments belong on the mailing list or private
> emails. People solving bugs don't need to know who annoys who.

> Can I suggest people start applying the 24hr rule when acting on bugs.
> For those that don't know. This rule states if something annoys you
> wait 24hrs before you reply. Its an effective damper for flame wars.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for starting this thread, Graeme.

Just recently the mood surrounding OpenEmbedded and Angstrom has been
dragged down by lots of small fights and arguments, often put in very
impolite and arrogant style. People are always leaving projects or starting
forks -- this is nothing new -- although usually they do this because
of technical differences, not because they're scared away or
threatened.

I won't pick any individuals here, but rather want to alert you as a whole.
This is seriously compromising the reputation of our respective projects.

A technically superior project can lose big time in a comparison when
it has a battlesome community. Guys, we're losing opportunities here!

_Please_ try to act much more diplomatic, in word and deed. If you're angry,
swallow it down, think a day about it, and formulate a professional
statement. Don't haste. It's very important.

Friendly Regards,

:M:
-- 
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de

Re: OE & Angstrom reputation (was: [Angstrom-devel] Bugzilla is not USENET)

[Paul Sokolovsky]

Hello Michael,

Saturday, December 22, 2007, 10:08:58 PM, you wrote:

> Graeme Gregory wrote:
>> Guys the bickering in bugzilla is getting to the point where it
>> is silly.

>> I personally don't feel that this lends a good impression of the OE
>> project and the Angstrom distribution.

>> Also a lot of the actual arguments belong on the mailing list or private
>> emails. People solving bugs don't need to know who annoys who.

>> Can I suggest people start applying the 24hr rule when acting on bugs.
>> For those that don't know. This rule states if something annoys you
>> wait 24hrs before you reply. Its an effective damper for flame wars.

> I couldn't agree more. Thanks for starting this thread, Graeme.

> Just recently the mood surrounding OpenEmbedded and Angstrom has been
> dragged down by lots of small fights and arguments, often put in very
> impolite and arrogant style. People are always leaving projects or starting
> forks -- this is nothing new -- although usually they do this because
> of technical differences, not because they're scared away or
> threatened.

  Have to say, I can't agree with this, based on my experience with
open-source. IMHO, most forks are created because of social reasons,
not technical. Of course, that only means that more attention should
be paid to social atmosphere of a project.

> I won't pick any individuals here, but rather want to alert you as a whole.
> This is seriously compromising the reputation of our respective projects.

> A technically superior project can lose big time in a comparison when
> it has a battlesome community. Guys, we're losing opportunities here!

> _Please_ try to act much more diplomatic, in word and deed. If you're angry,
> swallow it down, think a day about it, and formulate a professional
> statement. Don't haste. It's very important.


  Well, I really wanted to skip this topic, especially taking into
account that one of the persons involved is particularly sensitive to
this stuff. But I find it amusing that 2 of 2 of our friendly value-added
distro creators participated in the argument in question, even if
other side was me. The meta-topic was release bug management for Angstrom,
and while one of them used to be a bug manager for Angstrom, it took
some time to reach understanding why bugs managed in one way and not
another. I personally regret this, as I really rejoiced our
value-added friends to come back to active OE work right in time for
Angstrom release, as their (both active, experienced developers) help
is very much needed! It's really sad that instead there was another
argument, like few times before, hiccup in bug processing, and
another declaration that someone won't work on Angstrom, like we
already heard, despite most of circumstances were different then.


> Friendly Regards,

> :M:



-- 
Best regards,
 Paul                            mailto:pmiscml@gmail.com

Re: [Angstrom-devel] OE & Angstrom reputation (was: Bugzilla is not USENET)

[Cliff Brake]

On Dec 22, 2007 3:08 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <mickey@vanille-media.de> wrote:

> _Please_ try to act much more diplomatic, in word and deed. If you're angry,
> swallow it down, think a day about it, and formulate a professional
> statement. Don't haste. It's very important.

One thing I have found to be very helpful when things get tense is a
phone conversation.  I just relearned this again on one of my
projects.  We ran into a tough issue, and assumptions where made by me
and another party that were not correct, and we ended up wasting a lot
of time, and trust was diminished.  At certain times there is just not
enough bandwidth with email and irc to convey all the information
needed for there to be good understanding.  I realize this may not be
practical with a project like OE with timezone and language
differences, but as voice communication is getting very cheap, it
should be considered when possible.

Merry Christmas and best wishes to everyone!

Cliff

-- 
=======================
Cliff Brake
http://bec-systems.com

Re: [Angstrom-devel] OE & Angstrom reputation (was: Bugzilla is not USENET)

[Richard Purdie]

On Sat, 2007-12-22 at 21:08 +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> Graeme Gregory wrote:
> > Guys the bickering in bugzilla is getting to the point where it
> > is silly.
> 
> > I personally don't feel that this lends a good impression of the OE
> > project and the Angstrom distribution.
> 
> > Also a lot of the actual arguments belong on the mailing list or private
> > emails. People solving bugs don't need to know who annoys who.
> 
> > Can I suggest people start applying the 24hr rule when acting on bugs.
> > For those that don't know. This rule states if something annoys you
> > wait 24hrs before you reply. Its an effective damper for flame wars.
> 
> I couldn't agree more. Thanks for starting this thread, Graeme.
> 
> Just recently the mood surrounding OpenEmbedded and Angstrom has been
> dragged down by lots of small fights and arguments, often put in very
> impolite and arrogant style. People are always leaving projects or starting
> forks -- this is nothing new -- although usually they do this because
> of technical differences, not because they're scared away or
> threatened.
> 
> I won't pick any individuals here, but rather want to alert you as a whole.
> This is seriously compromising the reputation of our respective projects.
> 
> A technically superior project can lose big time in a comparison when
> it has a battlesome community. Guys, we're losing opportunities here!
> 
> _Please_ try to act much more diplomatic, in word and deed. If you're angry,
> swallow it down, think a day about it, and formulate a professional
> statement. Don't haste. It's very important.

I'm rather saddened to watch the way this thread is going after what
Mickey asked :(. I'm not going to fan the flames and reply to the later
emails directly, I just want to add my support to both Graeme's and
Mickey's comments above.

1. The bickering in the bugzilla is petty and must stop. 

2. The bickering on the mailing lists is equally petty and must stop.

If it doesn't Angstrom dies and takes OE with it. It is as simple as
that.

I realise there are some tensions between certain developers. We don't
all think the same, we don't all agree on everything. That is just life
though, deal with it, preferably adults! Everyone concerned in this
incessant bickering just ends up looking stupid and it undermines both
their positions and that of the projects themselves. Keep in mind the
latter is unfair on the other developers of said projects.

I suspect there is *nothing* fundamental we don't all agree on? I'm
assuming we all think that Angstrom and OE are good things and worth
devoting time to, right? :). Play to our common goals and use these to
override our differences.

Remember that anyone asking a question means that person wants to learn
something. That means *any* question someone asks is never a stupid or
invalid question, just that some questions are harder to answer that
others. The trick is finding a polite and helpful way to deal with
questions including those which lack insight. I can guarantee everyone
here has asked what in retrospect could be called a "stupid" question at
some point in their life.

Another important thing I caught glimpses of was something about the
approachability of Angstrom/OE developers. We need to make sure we are
approachable and that both users and developers feel this. Personally, I
*never* want to get into a position where I'm unapproachable and I hope
nobody else does either. 

On that note, if I'm not approachable, please tell me why and what I can
do better (offlist if appropriate)...

So, can everyone please try and work together nicely!

Cheers,

Richard