A humble request

A humble request

[Zeeshan Ali]

Hello,
   Most of the mailing-lists that i have subscribed
to, follow a tradition that make it quite easy to
identify emails: they add a prefix at the beginning of
each email's topic. Would'nt it be better if we do the
same too. Bye.

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
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Re: A humble request

[John A. Sullivan III]

I second that motion!

> Hello,
>    Most of the mailing-lists that i have subscribed
> to, follow a tradition that make it quite easy to
> identify emails: they add a prefix at the beginning of
> each email's topic. Would'nt it be better if we do the
> same too. Bye.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
>


-- 
John A. Sullivan III
Chief Technology Officer
Nexus Management
+1 207-985-7880
john.sullivan@nexusmgmt.com

Re: A humble request

[Nigel Kukard]

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I third that motion!

On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 06:54:33PM -0500, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
> I second that motion!
> 
> > Hello,
> >    Most of the mailing-lists that i have subscribed
> > to, follow a tradition that make it quite easy to
> > identify emails: they add a prefix at the beginning of
> > each email's topic. Would'nt it be better if we do the
> > same too. Bye.
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> John A. Sullivan III
> Chief Technology Officer
> Nexus Management
> +1 207-985-7880
> john.sullivan@nexusmgmt.com
> 

Nigel Kukard  (Chief Executive Officer)
Lando Technologies Africa (Pty) Ltd
nigel@lando.co.za   www.lando.co.za
Tel: 083 399 5822  Fax: 086 1100036
Hoheisen Park Bellville,  Cape Town
National  Internet Service Provider

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Re: A humble request

[Martin Josefsson]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Nigel Kukard wrote:

> I third that motion!
>
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 06:54:33PM -0500, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
> > I second that motion!
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >    Most of the mailing-lists that i have subscribed
> > > to, follow a tradition that make it quite easy to
> > > identify emails: they add a prefix at the beginning of
> > > each email's topic. Would'nt it be better if we do the
> > > same too. Bye.

Learn how to filter email into folders.

/Martin

subject-prefixing of ml postings (was Re: A humble request)

[Harald Welte]

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On Thu, Jan 22, 2004 at 02:07:14PM -0800, Zeeshan Ali wrote:
> Hello,
>    Most of the mailing-lists that i have subscribed
> to, follow a tradition that make it quite easy to
> identify emails: they add a prefix at the beginning of
> each email's topic. Would'nt it be better if we do the
> same too. Bye.

This is mostly done on mailinglists for non-technical people.  People
who don't understand 

a) how the email system works
b) how to use their email client

As I can expect anybody involved with netfilter (even more with
netfilter development) to not fit into any of those categories,
I strongly oppose that proposal.

Why?

Because the netfilter/iptalbes lists (like any other reasonable
mailinglists, at least all of the 100+ that I'm on) insert special
headers that allow you to identify mailinglist postings without putting
garbage into the subject line.

List-Help: <mailto:netfilter-devel-request@lists.netfilter.org?subject=help>    
List-Post: <mailto:netfilter-devel@lists.netfilter.org>                         List-Subscribe: <https://lists.netfilter.org/mailman/listinfo/netfilter-devel>, 
        <mailto:netfilter-devel-request@lists.netfilter.org?subject=subscribe> 
List-Id: discussion about netfilter development <netfilter-devel.lists.netfilter.org>           

So you just configure your email reader or procmail or sieve or whatever
your favourite filtering system is to match on the "List-ID" header.
Even proprietary end-user oriented products like Outlook or Netscape
Mail can do that...

> Do you Yahoo!?

No, despite their constant advertisement efforts.

P.S.: I can also expect anybody who posts to this list to put
_REASONABLE_ subject lines into their postings.  A subject line where
one could conclude the matter of the request, not just that it is some
request.

P.P.S.: Would anybody be willing to make a docbook-website XML document
for our new homepage about 'how to use the netfilter/iptables
mailinglists' with content like the above one?  That would be really
appreciated.

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge@netfilter.org>             http://www.netfilter.org/
============================================================================
  "Fragmentation is like classful addressing -- an interesting early
   architectural error that shows how much experimentation was going
   on while IP was being designed."                    -- Paul Vixie

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Re: subject-prefixing of ml postings (was Re: A humble request)

[Kiran Kumar]

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--- Harald Welte <laforge@netfilter.org> wrote:

> P.P.S.: Would anybody be willing to make a
> docbook-website XML document
> for our new homepage about 'how to use the
> netfilter/iptables
> mailinglists' with content like the above one?  That
> would be really
> appreciated.

  I have built up some content based on the rules of
another list that I am on (most of which are, I guess,
relevant here as well). The patch for the homepage
module of cvs is attached.


=====
Regards,
Kiran Kumar Immidi

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

[-- Attachment #2: contact.patch --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 4450 bytes --]

diff -urN homepage/xml/contact.xml homepage.new/xml/contact.xml
--- homepage/xml/contact.xml	2004-01-17 18:59:07.000000000 +0530
+++ homepage.new/xml/contact.xml	2004-01-28 09:58:18.266406080 +0530
@@ -25,6 +25,52 @@
 you will minimize the burden on the project members, and thus minimize the potential delay until you will receive a reply to your inquiry.
 </para>
 
+<section id="list-rules">
+<title>Netfilter list rules</title>
+<para>
+You are strongly advised to go through these set of rules before posting to any
+of the netfilter lists.
+</para>
+<itemizedlist mark="bullet">
+
+<title>List Rules</title>
+
+<listitem>
+Subject Line <para>Make sure that your post contains a valid subject line containing a gist of your post rather than things like 'Help!!!' or even bad 'HELP ME PLEEEEEASE' </para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Top-posts <para>Do not "top-post" (reply to a message by adding text to the top of the message instead of below), as it loses the reader and the flow of the message and can annoy other readers. </para> 
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Overquoting <para>If you are replying to another message, quote only the portions of that message that you are specifically responding to, and insert your comments after those quotes. Do not simply quote back the entire message! Trim off everything apart from the 2-3 most relevant lines of the original message.</para>
+
+<para>In general, your reply should contain at least as much text as the amount of text you are quoting, if not more. Never quote back dozens of lines of text and simply add a single line of text to the bottom - people will *hate* you for that!</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+HTML Messages <para>HTML is not email, and email doesn't contain HTML, so please turn HTML formatting OFF in your email client. Do not use italics, colors, bold, fonts, pictures, sounds, or other HTML elements. Providing HREF (link) elements is allowed. Please use only 7-bit text when sending email to the lists.</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Message recycling <para>Do not start a New message or thread by hitting "Reply" in your mail client and changing the subject. When you do this, you mess up other participant's ability to read mail in a threaded fashion. When you mean to post a new message, use New, and when you want to reply to an existing message, hit Reply. </para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Pseudo-legal disclaimers <para>Do not attach obnoxious pseudo-legal, nonsensical disclaimers to your messages. People on open source lists do not like to be threatened with these. If your company insists on attaching such disclaimers to messages going out to mailing lists (where, by definition, the sender has *NO* control over who gets to see the message), then either use a webmail system, or just don't post.</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Off-topic <para>Stay on-topic for the list. This isn't a good place to discuss automobiles, politics, music, or anything that is not related to Netfilter. Sometimes topics will diverge from the general discussion, but please try to keep it relevant to the list topic. Do not ask usage questions in the devel list, or vice versa</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Message time and date <para>Please make sure the date and time on your computer is always current. When your date is set to something such as the year 2006, messages posted by you will get sorted based on that date, which may put them outside of the related month or year they belong in.</para>
+</listitem>
+
+</itemizedlist>
+
 <section id="ml-announce">
 <title>The netfilter-announce mailinglist</title>
 <para>
diff -urN homepage/xml/layout.xml homepage.new/xml/layout.xml
--- homepage/xml/layout.xml	2004-01-10 03:41:52.000000000 +0530
+++ homepage.new/xml/layout.xml	2004-01-28 09:57:09.691831000 +0530
@@ -111,6 +111,10 @@
 			<tocentry page="security/2003-08-01-nat-sack.xml" filename="2003-08-01-nat-sack.html"/>
 		</tocentry>
 		<tocentry page="contact.xml" filename="contact.html">
+                        <tocentry id="list-rules" href="/contact.html#list-rules">
+                                <title>The netfilter mailinglist rules</title>
+                                <titleabbrev>List Rules</titleabbrev>
+                        </tocentry>
 			<tocentry id="toc-contact-ml-announce" href="/contact.html#ml-announce">
 				<title>The netfilter announce mailinglist</title>
 				<titleabbrev>netfilter-announce list</titleabbrev>

Re: subject-prefixing of ml postings (was Re: A humble request)

[Kiran Kumar]

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--- Kiran Kumar <immidi_kiran@yahoo.com> wrote:

>   I have built up some content based on the rules of
> another list that I am on (most of which are, I
> guess,
> relevant here as well). The patch for the homepage
> module of cvs is attached.

  Sorry, seems the previous one had a problem..
resending it.


=====
Regards,
Kiran Kumar Immidi

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

[-- Attachment #2: contact.patch --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 4366 bytes --]

diff -urN homepage/xml/contact.xml homepage.new/xml/contact.xml
--- homepage/xml/contact.xml	2004-01-17 18:59:07.000000000 +0530
+++ homepage.new/xml/contact.xml	2004-01-28 10:18:32.526810440 +0530
@@ -25,6 +25,54 @@
 you will minimize the burden on the project members, and thus minimize the potential delay until you will receive a reply to your inquiry.
 </para>
 
+<section id="list-rules">
+<title>Netfilter list rules</title>
+<para>
+You are strongly advised to go through these set of rules before posting to any
+of the netfilter lists.
+</para>
+<itemizedlist mark="bullet">
+
+<title>List Rules</title>
+
+<listitem>
+Subject Line <para>Make sure that your post contains a valid subject line containing a gist of your post rather than things like 'Help!!!' or even bad 'HELP ME PLEEEEEASE' </para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Top-posts <para>Do not "top-post" (reply to a message by adding text to the top of the message instead of below), as it loses the reader and the flow of the message and can annoy other readers. </para> 
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Overquoting <para>If you are replying to another message, quote only the portions of that message that you are specifically responding to, and insert your comments after those quotes. Do not simply quote back the entire message! Trim off everything apart from the 2-3 most relevant lines of the original message.</para>
+
+<para>In general, your reply should contain at least as much text as the amount of text you are quoting, if not more. Never quote back dozens of lines of text and simply add a single line of text to the bottom - people will *hate* you for that!</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+HTML Messages <para>HTML is not email, and email doesn't contain HTML, so please turn HTML formatting OFF in your email client. Do not use italics, colors, bold, fonts, pictures, sounds, or other HTML elements. Providing HREF (link) elements is allowed. Please use only 7-bit text when sending email to the lists.</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Message recycling <para>Do not start a New message or thread by hitting "Reply" in your mail client and changing the subject. When you do this, you mess up other participant's ability to read mail in a threaded fashion. When you mean to post a new message, use New, and when you want to reply to an existing message, hit Reply. </para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Pseudo-legal disclaimers <para>Do not attach obnoxious pseudo-legal, nonsensical disclaimers to your messages. People on open source lists do not like to be threatened with these. If your company insists on attaching such disclaimers to messages going out to mailing lists (where, by definition, the sender has *NO* control over who gets to see the message), then either use a webmail system, or just don't post.</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Off-topic <para>Stay on-topic for the list. This isn't a good place to discuss automobiles, politics, music, or anything that is not related to Netfilter. Sometimes topics will diverge from the general discussion, but please try to keep it relevant to the list topic. Do not ask usage questions in the devel list, or vice versa</para>
+</listitem>
+
+<listitem>
+Message time and date <para>Please make sure the date and time on your computer is always current. When your date is set to something such as the year 2006, messages posted by you will get sorted based on that date, which may put them outside of the related month or year they belong in.</para>
+</listitem>
+
+</itemizedlist>
+
+</section>
+
 <section id="ml-announce">
 <title>The netfilter-announce mailinglist</title>
 <para>
diff -urN homepage/xml/layout.xml homepage.new/xml/layout.xml
--- homepage/xml/layout.xml	2004-01-10 03:41:52.000000000 +0530
+++ homepage.new/xml/layout.xml	2004-01-28 10:18:32.527810288 +0530
@@ -111,6 +111,10 @@
 			<tocentry page="security/2003-08-01-nat-sack.xml" filename="2003-08-01-nat-sack.html"/>
 		</tocentry>
 		<tocentry page="contact.xml" filename="contact.html">
+			<tocentry id="list-rules" href="/contact.html#list-rules">
+				<title>The netfilter mailinglist rules</title>
+				<titleabbrev>List Rules</titleabbrev>
+			</tocentry>
 			<tocentry id="toc-contact-ml-announce" href="/contact.html#ml-announce">
 				<title>The netfilter announce mailinglist</title>
 				<titleabbrev>netfilter-announce list</titleabbrev>

Re: subject-prefixing of ml postings (was Re: A humble request)

[Harald Welte]

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On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 08:54:09PM -0800, Kiran Kumar wrote:
> --- Kiran Kumar <immidi_kiran@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >   I have built up some content based on the rules of
> > another list that I am on (most of which are, I
> > guess,
> > relevant here as well). The patch for the homepage
> > module of cvs is attached.
> 
>   Sorry, seems the previous one had a problem..
> resending it.

thanks a  lot, I've committed your change to CVS and will update the
homepage shortly.

Have you been progressing with some of the other proposed work (either
homepage-related, or netfilter-related), or are you waiting for me
making a concrete assignment?

I really don't want to lose your offer for help just because of some
misunderstanding.

> Kiran Kumar Immidi

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge@netfilter.org>             http://www.netfilter.org/
============================================================================
  "Fragmentation is like classful addressing -- an interesting early
   architectural error that shows how much experimentation was going
   on while IP was being designed."                    -- Paul Vixie

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Re: subject-prefixing of ml postings (was Re: A humble request)

[Zeeshan Ali]

Hello,
  
--- Harald Welte <laforge@netfilter.org> wrote:
> This is mostly done on mailinglists for
> non-technical people.  People
> who don't understand 
> 
> a) how the email system works
> b) how to use their email client

   If the relationship between these points is of  AND
and not of OR then 

(1) you are supposing here that everyone would be
using email clients which is'nt true, atleat it is not
true for me (as i use web-based yahoo email).

(2) The mailing-list is meant for expert programmers
or other technical people but not for experts on
email-clients, is it?

   Thank you for concidering my request. Regards.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

Re: subject-prefixing of ml postings (was Re: A humble request)

[Kiran Kumar]

--- Zeeshan Ali <zeelists@yahoo.com> wrote:

> (1) you are supposing here that everyone would be
> using email clients which is'nt true, atleat it is
> not
> true for me (as i use web-based yahoo email).

Yahoo provides filters, which is what I use.


=====
Regards,
Kiran Kumar Immidi

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/